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Hmmm it’s one of those things that I’m enjoying the varied chat options that crop up ( I also had that dialogue this evening), but I’m not sure I would miss it. By that i mean I find a lot of the chat options are there as fluff.

Don’t get me wrong, it does help make the world seem as though it reacts to my character’s choices in life, more so than other games, but most of it isn’t impactful. And that’s fine too, not every piece of dialogue should be sparking rifts in the story. It’s just none of my religious or class choices have yet (and I stress - yet!) had any bearing on the story or my companions other than some neat lines of dialogue.

Yes if I play it through again there will be plenty to read that will be different, but the story doesn’t change (afaik) based on those options, more on my decisions.

Yeah I’m not really complaining, I enjoy the variation in dialogue options that crop up, it’s just often it feels like it’s in chats that are cute (like the above screenshot), but aren’t meaningful.

Who knows, maybe these little things add up down the line. I like that the game has engrossed me character wise, though the commander stuff is a bit of a slog to manage.

Last edited by Riandor; 06/09/21 10:40 PM.
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Originally Posted by Topgoon
I'm used to the Pathfinder craziness, but I can see how the Pathfinder Class system can be particularly daunting for newcomers because it forces A LOT of choices immediately into the moment of character creation. You're basically asked to specialize before you even had a chance to play and get to know the game. From a meta standpoint too - knowing the game can be 50-100+ hours adds on to that analysis by paralysis.

This is something D&D 5E have fixed in multiple regards, despite all the issues I have with its simplicity. For many classes (outside of a few thematic ones) the "subclass choice" is moved a few levels back (level 2, level 3), so you have had a chance to at least playtest a bit. Also by making sure that Subclasses only ADD, never subtract, you're less worried about picking the "wrong class". Lastly - all subclasses of the same class in 5e get their features at the same level - so it's much easier to compare and contrast.
I respectfully disagree. Yes, D&D5e changed the subclasses choice to level 2 or 3 for some like fighters, rangers, druids... But for Sorcerers, Warlocks, clerics,... you still have to choose at level 1. And you do not have the opportunity to change that.
Say, you are an arcane archer but you will love to add the cool battle master manoeuvres to your repertory (Only archetype that makes fighters do more than "I Attack" every turn TBH) ... you are, again, out of luck.
In pathfinder, you can even have two archetypes with the condition that those two cannot change the same thing. So, in PF you can customize your subclass too (but nobody forces you to do that, you can even play the plain class without the archetype, in 5e they always force a subclass on your character, and you are stuck with it).

The "simplicity" of D&D5e makes that you make even more decisions at character creation than pathfinder. Let´s see why:

The skills, languages, tools you can use... your character will know you will learn at level one, in character creation, and that would be all the skills you will have available all the 20 levels afterwards! You choose animal handling as a skill for your ranger but the campaign ends up being in the Underdark where there are no animals, only aberrations and drows? Well, tough luck pal.

You have no possibility of learning new skills besides using a feat for that, a few archetypes and classes. You are stuck with what you learnt at the first level! Even weapon and armour proficiencies, you mostly have the ones you got at level 1.
Even if you multiclass you only get SOME of the proficiencies of the new class, and besides ranger and rogue, NONE of the skills of the new class. You do not even got all the weapon proficiencies of the new class. For example, A fighter multiclassing to cleric is still unable to pick the heal skill, a wizard multiclassing to rogue or bard is still unable to use rapiers, hand crossbows or bows... just because.

[And about bards, let´s not talk about how 5e Bards are unable to give your song to all the party, only one at a time. Same as with bless, aid, haste etc that you have to take an extra step just to give support to all your party members. Absolutely logical for a party-based game... aaanyway]

In comparison, in Pathfinder you can learn new skills when you level up, you can even put points in skills that are not from your class. You can learn new languages with the linguistic skill, you can pick new tools whenever you want.
And of course, when you multiclass you got all the weapons, armour, proficiencies, abilities and skills of the new class, not only some spares.


In PnP, most DMs are able to surpass the character creation limitations of D&D5e giving the opportunity to learn new things by roleplay: learning new languages, training in the use of new tools, make your familiar or animal companion use the skills you can´t, change your deity or patron by roleplay.... but sadly that does not translate to the 5e videogames because you do not have a DM.
They do not even have multiclass, so in the case of the D&D5e videogames, Solasta and BG3, they "solved" the excess of options by forcing you to choose the skills and weapon and armour proficiences for the entire game at level one or wasting a feat just to be able to learn more (let's remember that in 5e feats are limited to 3 in BG3/Solasta-, 4 for fighters- and you have to choose between a feat or +2 to your stats). In Pathfinder you only have to... well... level up.
And even if you have to use a feat to learn new things(You usually don´t) for some reason, you have more feats in PF and you do not have to choose between +2 to str, dex, etc and the feat...

And specifically about weapon proficiencies in the WoTR videogame, you have a upgradeable talking weapon, Finnean, that could change into any weapon in the game. Even if you do not find a weapon of your choice that you like, you can use Finnean the entire play.


That makes it even more meta and forces much more decisions that you have to make at level 1 for the entire 20 levels in 5e.

Last edited by _Vic_; 07/09/21 12:34 AM.
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Originally Posted by Riandor
Hmmm it’s one of those things that I’m enjoying the varied chat options that crop up ( I also had that dialogue this evening), but I’m not sure I would miss it. By that i mean I find a lot of the chat options are there as fluff.

Don’t get me wrong, it does help make the world seem as though it reacts to my character’s choices in life, more so than other games, but most of it isn’t impactful. And that’s fine too, not every piece of dialogue should be sparking rifts in the story. It’s just none of my religious or class choices have yet (and I stress - yet!) had any bearing on the story or my companions other than some neat lines of dialogue.

Yes if I play it through again there will be plenty to read that will be different, but the story doesn’t change (afaik) based on those options, more on my decisions.

Yeah I’m not really complaining, I enjoy the variation in dialogue options that crop up, it’s just often it feels like it’s in chats that are cute (like the above screenshot), but aren’t meaningful.

Until now at least I found your race, background, deity or class (you can multiclass so that would be a mess) does not change substantially the play, mechanically wise, only the dialogues.

The Mythic paths are what largely change the shape of the world, at least based on what we´ve seen in the first chapters, and some dialogue, alignment and other decisions you made by roleplaying during the campaign, not constrained by what you choose at level one. I prefer to shape the story by my decisions ingame, not by my character sheet.

Some examples with Ultra high spoilers. Really, if you do not want to be spoiled, do not open it.
You are a brave soul, ain´t you.

If you don't follow the Aion path, the city of Drezen was conquered years ago, and you defeat the infame traitor Staunton Vhane. If you are an Aion, and Aion only, you change the timeline, redeem Staunton Vhane and in the end the city of Drezen was never conquered by demons, because the legendary hero Staunton Vhane was defending the besieged city for more than 30 years until the crusaders came and broke the siege, defeating the demons. Vhane finally retires as a revered figure and past his last years in peace.
Also, the wardstone that protect the city from demons are destroyed, because they were made by angels trapped inside. That was a perturbation of the planes equilibrium and the Aion will erase them, returning the trapped angels to the planes, angering Iomedae, the goddess that created them.

If you are a Lich, the land is slowly turned into Geb, the undead kingdom. . Some companions leave, others are corrupted, and you resurrect some powerful characters you find to serve you. The Queen is dead and you can make her your undead figurehead so you become the de facto ruler of the lands. Also your main crusade forces are now undead, you replenish your forces by killing and resurrecting enemy units, and it´s very hard to recruit people from other places, so the land is increasingly becoming a land of the dead.

...And that's only in chapter 4 out of 6, I´m still eager to discover where this goes.



Even if I like reactivity based on your character traits, I think that makes more sense this way. I mean, there are +50 class choices, 9 races and 12 deities, realistically it is not feasible to shape the world based on all those options unless you are making a visual novel. We were lucky about the stretch goal in the Kickstarter to add more deities and dialogues because we wouldn´t have that either.

Last edited by _Vic_; 07/09/21 12:16 AM.
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Oof. Just encountered what amounts to a game-halting bug trying to load in to the seige on Drezen after the war council meeting.

Continuously crashing with Unity handler popping up, at around 89% loading out of the commander tent. And here I thought I'd saw a mention of Drezen loading fixes in today's patch update... definitely crashed my mood for the day, dealing with that and trying multiple ways to remedy the issue only for none to work out.

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Originally Posted by Tuco
Personally what I really dislike more than "one thousand classes" is the multiclass system where you can make your "piece meal" build taking one level here and one level there, etc. As if making a character was some weird buffet.
It's something I don't really like in principle even in D&D and Pathfinder just makes it worse.
I do find that kind of multiclassing incredibly intimidating. I was never able to grasp full benefits of each level up to successfully plan out my builds - be it DND 3.5, or Pathfinder.

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This is where I flip the table and walk off saying "From now on...Class-less only!"

It's funny that we're getting class based systems with so many fiddly homebrews added that peoples head swim, at this point they might as well just go all the way to a classless system.

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I don't mind a bit of multiclassing, to be honest, although I agree that splashing in 5 or 6 classes gets exhausting.

5e limits this to some extent by placing level up rewards deeper into the class:


ASI/Feat are awarded every four CLASS levels (not character levels).
Multi-attack requires 5 class levels (no BaB stacking for multiple attacks).
Higher level spells require you to stick with a class (although spell slots do not).

Pathfinder does this a little bit, but a lot more stuff is front loaded (1 level of monk gives wis/cha to AC + a free feat for the most egregious example).

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Lol. I will say this about Pathfinder, the learning curve is harder. So though I do like it, I find it harder than BG3 to figure things out. I leveled up, got X ability or spell, Where is X ability or spell? How do I use it properly?

Then there is the UI. As janky as BG3 UI is, Pathfinder's confuses me more. Half the time I can't figure out why 1 minute I can do something and the next I can't.

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Still on the fence, so I've decided to check some gameplay footage to at least have a taste of the writing and the gameplay.

Turns out I am still as allergic to artificially-sweeted cardboard as I was when I had stoically suffered through Dragon Age: Inquisition for some reason. It's that flavor of tryhard, but with the over-verbose and clearly originally Russian (the punctuation and the sentence structure betray it all) text on top of it all. Guess there's no accounting for taste. So, a big nope there.

And the gameplay is just Kingmaker, but... worse? In a way that instead of getting more concise and to the point, it's mechanically even more redundant with even more subclasses that nobody cared to balance. What's the point of hundreds of features if many of them either don't work because of bugs or don't work because they don't function within the game's difficulty and encounter design? Another big nope.

Guess NWN2 remains the 3.5 fix for me still.

Last edited by Brainer; 07/09/21 03:48 AM.
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Originally Posted by Brainer
Still on the fence, so I've decided to check some gameplay footage to at least have a taste of the writing and the gameplay.

Turns out I am still as allergic to artificially-sweeted cardboard as I was when I had stoically suffered through Dragon Age: Inquisition for some reason. It's that flavor of tryhard, but with the over-verbose and clearly originally Russian (the punctuation and the sentence structure betray it all) text on top of it all. Guess there's no accounting for taste. So, a big nope there.

And the gameplay is just Kingmaker, but... worse? In a way that instead of getting more concise and to the point, it's mechanically even more redundant with even more subclasses that nobody cared to balance. What's the point of hundreds of features if many of them either don't work because of bugs or don't work because they don't function within the game's difficulty and encounter design? Another big nope.

Guess NWN2 remains the 3.5 fix for me still.

The fence you say? Suuure. Consider me suprised...not.

At least you didn´t have to actually play the game to feed your confirmation bias. That´s some bucks you saved.

We just have to wait for the new and refreshing "reasons" (again) about why you are not going to buy (again) a game that you were never meant to play nor buy in the first place. You surely spend a lot of time finding reasons to dislike more a game you already loathed in the first place, without even playing it. TBH I do not really care if you like or if you buy the game, I just find it puzzling.

Last edited by _Vic_; 07/09/21 04:18 AM.
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
The fence you say? Suuure. Consider me suprised...not.

At least you didn´t have to actually play the game to feed your confirmation bias. That´s some bucks you saved.
Sure did.

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I don't buy the on the fence thing, especially after your response to my previous post. At the very least, we're actually brutally honest about how WotR isn't really for everyone and does have significant problems, compared to how most of the BG3 community appears to be handling their own game with kid's gloves in comparison.

Though even for all its faults, its highs for me are still higher than BG3's highs in the current state of both games, though Larian has 1-2 years to surprise everyone.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 07/09/21 04:05 AM.
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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I don't buy the on the fence thing, especially after your response to my previous post. At the very least, we're actually brutally honest about how WotR isn't really for everyone and does have significant problems, compared to how most of the BG3 community appears to be handling the game with kid's gloves in comparison.

Though even for all its faults, its highs are still higher than BG3's highs in the current state of both games, though Larian has 1-2 years to surprise everyone.
I tend to give all CRPGs a try, despite their faults. Just have been burned more than once at this point (Solasta, to name the latest example).

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I have to say, after playing with Core, it's not as hard to me as people have made it out to be. At the same time though, I have the power of beta foresight, and I've been watching my DM going in blind and getting destroyed with a much less optimized party setup. It's... Undeniably overtuned without significant min-max. Like it gives me the impression that it's balanced for the assumption that you're going to be going in to each boss fight almost fully buffed to the max at the very minimum.

A couple enemies really need a balance pass. Especially the swarms in chapter 2, and the plagued tigers or somesuch with +22 bonus to hit because fuck you that's why. They have counters but they're so specific that it's only really one step removed from telling someone to just high ground stealth ambush in BG3. It's probably worse here because they chose to adapt the one AP involving enemies with across the board resistances or immunities to damn near everything early on. I've been hitting delay button a lot and waiting for enemies to come to me too, because walking up to them with only one attack while giving them their full attack is a whole lot worse than the other way around.

On the other hand, the enemy AI is now starting to threaten my back line much more often. Maybe they just made the AI dumber in chapter 1 or something.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 07/09/21 04:21 AM.
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Yeah, Solasta =/ I still have hopes about the title. It is a very solid D&D5e tabletop simulator, with an engine easy to mod and somewhat complete and faithful to the original material, with an interesting crafting and camping system...but the main campaign was not very engaging for me. Short, simple, the dialogues and NPCs are merely an excuse to send you to another dungeon, that, by the way, are Final fantasy linear dungeons, even tho the game has a very cool 3d environment they do not use it to the fullest. I am not sure if introducing more classes (druid and barbarian) is going to improve the gameplay if they do not give something interesting to do with the new features.

I still have one hope: the community and fanmade campaigns. The first Neverwinter ended up with a very active community that made great campaigns to play and the successive DLCs were much better. It would be a pity if a good engine for D&D5e with an interesting editor is going to waste.
I too have high hopes for the BG3 editor, andthe modding community to improve some of the things that I do not find very palatable about how the BG3 game is made ( the fire surfaces, the hp bloat, the lack of feat, and multiclass options, etc).


That said, the good thing is we live in a good year for CRPGs. Even if some are not for all people, we have great titles for the genre in the making or already made, like bg3, Solasta, Black geyser, knights of the chalice 2, Wasteland 3, etc.
And the good thing is that you can play all or none, you do not really have to choose more than how much your wallet allow =D

I expected those games were going to come at the same time, but luckily it seems we had (and will have) enough time between them to try them all.

Last edited by _Vic_; 07/09/21 04:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by dwig
I don't mind a bit of multiclassing, to be honest, although I agree that splashing in 5 or 6 classes gets exhausting.

5e limits this to some extent by placing level up rewards deeper into the class:


ASI/Feat are awarded every four CLASS levels (not character levels).
Multi-attack requires 5 class levels (no BaB stacking for multiple attacks).
Higher level spells require you to stick with a class (although spell slots do not).

Pathfinder does this a little bit, but a lot more stuff is front loaded (1 level of monk gives wis/cha to AC + a free feat for the most egregious example).

I think 5e has the same issue, one level of monk or barbarian also gives you Wis or Con to AC (Plus dex) by means of unarmored defense. And the way D&D5 is made, a 20AC plus armor is much more difficult to beat than in pathfinder 1e and 2e (you have more ways to improve your %to hit besides getting advantage)

And barbarians can use shields with unarmored defense, could pick the bear totem that halves any damage besides psychic, etc... so it is even worse.

Also, if we can talk about the common dip with one level of Warlock that gives you the best damaging cantrip on the game, eldritch blast (that improves with character level, not with class level so you can use it up to level 20 without penalties), and the hex curse at level one, one of the best ways to reliably add damage for 8 hours (if an enemy dies, you can pick another target to curse so basically you can do it all the time, since its a bonus action); and some other patron feature. I level of warlock has something that is useful for all classes. Yes, you heard well, all classes.

Since the last feat/ASI comes at level 19, not 20, there is a meme about why this is: So all classes could pick a level in Warlock.

Last edited by _Vic_; 07/09/21 05:10 AM.
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Solasta's a good base for something that can go in a wildly different direction in the future. Hopefully WotC decides to bankroll them and have them adapt modules into video game format as a sort of competitor to the Pathfinder cRPGs - the main difference being they should go for an ultra tabletop-style experience and focus entirely on multiplayer functionality if they pursue this direction. This on top of a refined dungeon maker could result in something really special that quite frankly can't be replicated by anything else right now. BG3 could in theory, but it's obvious at this point that the single player design is holding back the multiplayer and vice-versa, along with the engine probably having its own set of limitations that people outside of Larian will struggle with, like how D:OS2's tools are largely neglected.

And if WotC doesn't, maybe Paizo should look into finding a studio that can do it for Pathfinder. It should light a fire under WotC's asses to stop funneling resources into projects like that recent Dark Alliance disaster that are only DnD in name only.

Coincidentally, Solasta is a Unity engine game. Unity recently acquired something called Parsec, which to my knowledge is a peer to peer multiplayer gaming app that lets people share the same app while passing the controls around, or something? I had heard offhand of people using it to try to play Solasta with multiplayer a month ago. I looked around on YouTube just now and found a video of a group utilizing it, and it looks really fun.


Maybe Unity is looking into some type of official integration with more freedom for individual players, precisely for games like Solasta? It could be really huge for cRPGs in the future.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 07/09/21 05:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Until now at least I found your race, background, deity or class (you can multiclass so that would be a mess) does not change substantially the play, mechanically wise, only the dialogues.

The Mythic paths are what largely change the shape of the world, at least based on what we´ve seen in the first chapters, and some dialogue, alignment and other decisions you made by roleplaying during the campaign, not constrained by what you choose at level one. I prefer to shape the story by my decisions ingame, not by my character sheet.

Even if I like reactivity based on your character traits, I think that makes more sense this way. I mean, there are +50 class choices, 9 races and 12 deities, realistically it is not feasible to shape the world based on all those options unless you are making a visual novel. We were lucky about the stretch goal in the Kickstarter to add more deities and dialogues because we wouldn´t have that either.

And hats off to Owlcat for putting them in, wasn’t supposed to sound like a criticism.

I do think I would personally prefer fewer classes and thus a tighter dialogue, but that’s possibly just me.

The Mythic classes are a bit weird, so far I have only had the choice of Heaven and a dash of Aeon. I just haven’t encountered anything else. Presumably due to being chaotic-good and choosing a lot of “good” answers, but it just means my play through currently is a little cliche(?!). That said I’m still at the story point prior to Dresen (just did the swarm encounter).
So it sounds like there is still plenty of water to flow under said proverbial bridge of options.

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Originally Posted by Riandor
The Mythic classes are a bit weird, so far I have only had the choice of Heaven and a dash of Aeon. I just haven’t encountered anything else. Presumably due to being chaotic-good and choosing a lot of “good” answers, but it just means my play through currently is a little cliche(?!). That said I’m still at the story point prior to Dresen (just did the swarm encounter).
So it sounds like there is still plenty of water to flow under said proverbial bridge of options.

You didn´t find Demon, Trickster and Azata choices playing chaotic? At least the Dialogues with demon choices are unmissable at chapter one
Before the fight with Hosilla at the end of the tutorial and in the first battle with the lilitu Minagho

Don´t worry if you don´t find more mythic paths dialogues because the choice comes much later in the game (even tho in the first chapter appear 4-5 of the 10 possible). The first two-three chapters are to showcase the different paths so you can make a choice when the time comes.

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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Don´t worry if you don´t find more mythic paths dialogues because the choice comes much later in the game (even tho in the first chapter appear 4-5 of the 10 possible). The first two-three chapters are to showcase the different paths so you can make a choice when the time comes.
Sorry, yes I encountered Demon as a counterpoint to Heaven.

Ah ok, more later, that’s good. The game doesn’t make it obvious (read: idiot proof) that you’re not locked in (though the tooltip perhaps kinda said that iiirc to be fair). So I was under the impression I that I was now already going down the Heaven rabbit hole.

It’s odd, I find myself liking this a lot more than Pillars of Eternity (1), which I only played so far and got a little bored with. However due to also managing armies (in a janky manner that feels very half baked), I do find myself needing to turn off, rather than push on.

I find there is too much time spent on the map, with army and character move speeds too slow. The encounters haven’t improved and the wandering skeleton merchant is useless to me most of the time as I never seem to have any money/need what he is selling. In fact I swore I somehow lost 12k!! Either that was a bug when I backed out of buying a mercenary, or someone is not just planting heads in my inventory!! (Stealing money would be quite neat).

But I do think it is the little things all adding up, the choices, and wondering when the next foxy surprise will hit, that is keeping me playing with a smile on my face.

People complain about Astarion and Shadowheart, but they’re no different to Count or Camellia, it’s just the cinematic approach of BG3 makes a little more in your face. I actually hope BG3 add some more subtle characters, because in WotR I’m a little on the fence about the companions so far, they’re all annoying in their own way, lol. Though Lan and Count have grown on me and Romance wise the only female I’ve been able to flirt with is the frigging queen!!! It’s a good thing I’m an elf and still older than she is he he.

Last edited by Riandor; 07/09/21 06:25 AM.
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