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This was just sent to my email. People say a lot of stuff and there's lots of opinions, but I find it quite entertaining to read. And funny.

WotR - Fixed title - reddit

Last edited by Try2Handing; 26/09/21 04:39 AM.

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Originally Posted by Try2Handing
In short, spellcasters are only really needed for "trick fights". For shenanigans. For meme tactics. Not for general encounters. Also not even necessarily boss fights, unless a boss fight is also a trick fight.

I'm aware that this also has a lot to do with Owlcat's way of designing encounters, and not just because of the rule books. But how I feel about the way 3.5e treats casters is still the same. Making martial stronger is understandable, but the harsh punishment against spellcasters is too much.
It's not just trick fights. It is simply a different playstyle. With grease for example I didn't need a tank, because even on higher difficulties you could faceplant everything, starting act one. Same for stinking could (heightened it also worked against the final boss), a lot of battles I didn't need a tank because enemies were nauseated and didn't do anything. Later on there was sirocco and creeping doom. I'd also say that in my experience, when playing PK for the first time (no kineticists back then), it was just easier to buff your animal companion to use as a frontliner. If the animal companion died, a simple rest would bring it back. Of course now that kineticists are in PK, you could as well ask why bother with either fighters or spellcasters, when you can just spam deadly earth.

Playing WotR now, I'd say that it is the classes that can target touch ac that are most useful (deadly earth is slightly less overpowered due to trip immune enemies, but still...). Unique enemies often have very high ac but very low touch ac, while at the same time hitting like a truck. Because of how dumb the ai, I just find it easier to spam skeletons while using anything ranged with touch attack (conjuration tends to ignore SR, though Ember can manage with rays; for now I've decided to ignore the kineticist class). This makes a lot of these supposedly tough battles easy, like that summoned demon end of chapter two (I think his touch ac was something like 6?). Funny enough the lady who tries to summon him is tougher.

Last edited by ash elemental; 26/09/21 06:52 AM.
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Playing WotR now, I'd say that it is the classes that can target touch ac that are most useful (deadly earth is slightly less overpowered due to trip immune enemies, but still...). Unique enemies often have very high ac but very low touch ac, while at the same time hitting like a truck. Because of how dumb the ai, I just find it easier to spam skeletons while using anything ranged with touch attack (conjuration tends to ignore SR, though Ember can manage with rays; for now I've decided to ignore the kineticist class). This makes a lot of these supposedly tough battles easy, like that summoned demon end of chapter two (I think his touch ac was something like 6?). Funny enough the lady who tries to summon him is tougher.
Is that so? I looked up that boss and one of the reddit posts mentioned Grease is the key, and the OP was like "you're RIGHT it WORKED", and I was like "Oh right let's try it". Then when I actually tried it I realized I didn't have a caster who could actually cast Grease, only the Wand of Grease. Of course that didn't work, cause the DC from the wand was like 10 and the thing had 18 Reflex save. I suppose you'd have a small chance if you Heighten Grease to level 5 and your DC at this point would probably be about 22. So I was like screw this and just wailed on him hoping for crits. I had True Seeing on my custom fighter who used Wide Sweep and was actually lucky enough to land 2 crits on him in like 3 rounds and won that, just before he landed one last hit that would've killed Seelah for good. Anyway, he has 23 Touch AC on Hard. If you try to hit him with touch attacks with a L9 mage you'd be missing most of the time, and when you do land a hit you'll have to contend with his 31 SR. And you get only one try every 6 seconds, while the guy has 5 APR at +35. May be easy for a Magus with Dimension Strike though.

Never bothered try out Heightened Spell, tbh. Will probably look into it later in this WotR run at some point.

Last edited by Try2Handing; 26/09/21 07:28 AM.

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I might remember his touch ac score wrong, but it definitely wasn't high enough to cause problems (playing on core). I usually have Ember open up with evil eye & cackle anyway, though admittedly I have not checked if it works on all ac types. As for SR, conjuration spells tend to ignore it and with ascendant element energy resistance is not an issue either. I have Woljif (& Daeran with second mystery) set on snowballing most of the time. Even with mages you can help the odds, eg. Sosiel's domain abilities. And then there are alchemist holy bombs which work on 90% of enemies.

My issue with WotR is that this bloating of AC, AB and SR means that either you min-max your character to hit those values, or you better use the few things that target touch ac & ignore SR. And if someone is new to the game system, they will have problems with that, even moreso due to class-related bugs and things not working as intended.

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The bloat is right. I had to min-max damn near everything in order to survive chapter 2 especially. I think the difficulty levels off again during chapter 3 and 4, but I can't imagine a newer player getting through on Core difficulty without having a completely optimized party if you intend to keep everyone single classed.

The chapter 2 superboss can be cheesed if you have the Close to the Heavens angel summon, who is immune to its physical attacks. I've heard you can also instakill it with a Dismissal spell if you're lucky, and despite what the spell says, you'll still get any loot the enemy had. The summoner lady is considered the harder fight, but apparently she's cheesed to hell if you drop a Glitterdust (or was it Faerie Fire) on her, as Glitterdust basically wrecks her concealment and the spell isn't subject to spell resistance and the enemy cannot save against it. Problem is, I don't think Camellia or Sosiel learn it naturally single-classed, and the other characters that might have to pick up the spell while leveling up. And checking my huge scroll stash, you don't find a scroll for it as well, except for the one in chapter 1 that you're expected to reveal an optional boss with.

I couldn't beat the superboss Playful Darkness in chapter 3 because I didn't have anyone capable of targeting her low touch AC besides Ember, nor did I have save DCs high enough to nail her down and lower her actual AC with my crowd control spells. Meanwhile I found the chapter 4 superboss laughably easy in comparison. Though I've heard Playful Darkness can actually be cheesed by abusing the environment - I've seen people talking about how she can supposedly be attacked out of range of your party by the area where the group of Succubi are.

I am fully aware of the Cave Fangs exploit, but I'm not going to use it because I expect that to get fixed.

Last edited by Saito Hikari; 26/09/21 08:41 AM.
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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
The bloat is right. I had to min-max damn near everything in order to survive chapter 2 especially. I think the difficulty levels off again during chapter 3 and 4, but I can't imagine a newer player getting through on Core difficulty without having a completely optimized party if you intend to keep everyone single classed.

The chapter 2 superboss can be cheesed if you have the Close to the Heavens angel summon, who is immune to its physical attacks. I've heard you can also instakill it with a Dismissal spell if you're lucky, and despite what the spell says, you'll still get any loot the enemy had. The summoner lady is considered the harder fight, but apparently she's cheesed to hell if you drop a Glitterdust (or was it Faerie Fire) on her, as Glitterdust basically wrecks her concealment and the spell isn't subject to spell resistance and the enemy cannot save against it. Problem is, I don't think Camellia or Sosiel learn it naturally single-classed, and the other characters that might have to pick up the spell while leveling up. And checking my huge scroll stash, you don't find a scroll for it as well, except for the one in chapter 1 that you're expected to reveal an optional boss with.

I couldn't beat the superboss Playful Darkness in chapter 3 because I didn't have anyone capable of targeting her low touch AC besides Ember, nor did I have save DCs high enough to nail her down and lower her actual AC with my crowd control spells. Meanwhile I found the chapter 4 superboss laughably easy in comparison. Though I've heard Playful Darkness can actually be cheesed by abusing the environment - I've seen people talking about how she can supposedly be attacked out of range of your party by the area where the group of Succubi are.

I am fully aware of the Cave Fangs exploit, but I'm not going to use it because I expect that to get fixed.

I play on core and everyone is single classed (Except Regil who starts with 2 classes obviously). Some fights were tricky and required several tries, but I am now in Act 5 and face no problems anymore (no exploits either).

Last edited by Ixal; 26/09/21 10:36 AM.
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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I am fully aware of the Cave Fangs exploit, but I'm not going to use it because I expect that to get fixed.
Ah yes, cave fangs. No idea if it is a bug or intended design, but it was a "is that really how it's supposed to work?!" moment when I've tried it.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
I play on core and everyone is single classed (Except Regil who starts with 2 classes obviously). Some fights were tricky and required several tries, but I am now in Act 5 and face no problems anymore (no exploits either).

Pretty much. Chapters 3 and 4 have been a lot easier than 2 overall for me, aside from Playful Darkness. Likely due to the gear availability and a lot of builds coming online past level 10.

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Originally Posted by Ixal
I play on core and everyone is single classed (Except Regil who starts with 2 classes obviously). Some fights were tricky and required several tries, but I am now in Act 5 and face no problems anymore (no exploits either).

The gear you get later and the Mythic path powers really level up the field.
By the time I reached chapters 4-5, I had to upgrade the difficulty because the lich spells were wiping out many of the encounters by himself and the trickster with persuasion 2 was making almost all the enemies frozen with panic besides the tougher ones. I had some troubles with the Aion but when you start getting the good spells and heighten the others things get even.

There are spells that are useful the entire game if you heighten them and some of them ignore SR, like blink (ignores true sight), grease, glitterdust, the inflict wounds/mass inflict wounds/slay living/harm (if you use the range metamagic they become ranged touch attacks) etc.


I thought at this time they would have fixed the cave fangs exploit in WOTR, in PF the mod added an option to allow to set only one stalagmite trap per turn, but I suppose we have to pick a mod to do that again =D Like with a button to toggle on/off the ai and stealth mod. On the mod page, the modder just wrote "Well, here we are again". Luckily these mods seem to be easily ported to WOTR.

Last edited by _Vic_; 26/09/21 01:44 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Couldn’t agree more. RT feels good when you’re plowing through mobs, but I find TB much more satisfying for challenging fights when the balance can hang on specific rolls. Crits feel better in TB too, you can actually revel in them. It’s definitely great to be able to switch back and forth at will.
I play turn-based 99% of the time (core difficulty) but there are moments where switching in real time actually makes some difficult fights significantly more manageable.
For instance every time there are a lot of (or few but dangerous) casters/snipers on the enemy side playing in real-time makes a lot easier to interrupt their casting/punish them with AOO.

Practical example experienced just the last time I played a couple of days ago:
When I crossed the Baphomet's prophet with his insanely high initiative rolls three reloads were not enough to spare me his bullshit AOE spell that drained 30-40 permanent DEX points to my entire party in a single cast.
When I finally approached the same fight in RT I closed the gap immediately and exploded the annoying fucker.


That's interesting but probably also inevitable, given how different both modes are in concept.

Another bonus from TB (I've seen this brought up by some): It makes it particular for beginnerse much easier to grasp how the mechanics work (as not everybody is acting simultaneously rather than turn by turn, and the combat log also only fills turn by turn).

Hopefully I haven't initiated another of those RT vs TB debates though, that was not my intention. I can enjoy both (played Deadfire exclusively in RT also). However, for Pathfinder, having that option officially now seems a definite plus so far, though the encounters will hugely likely be tuned with RT in mind.

Kingmaker already was a rather combat and enemy heavy game in general. Unfortunately, they still don't collect charater and save stats. But I'd reckon by the end of Kingmaker I had killed hugely much more enemies than on say Deadfire, which you can finish with killing far less than thousand. On my last Deadfire playthrough, I finished level 18 of 20 and we had killed 866 enemies (but then Obsidian had listened to the trash mob criticisms they received for PoE1 pretty strongly, it seems). The last sections in Kingmaker alone were practically filled with enemy mobs (and most dungeons likewise, even on "normal").

Last edited by Sven_; 26/09/21 01:50 PM.
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Talking about buffing, my life improved a lot when they finally ported the "auto-buff" bot mod to Wotr. I think I would be able to actually have social life instead of spending my time buffing the characters after every fight =D

[Linked Image from i.redd.it]

I recommend it to everyone, it does not add any cheesing, it only makes your characters cast a predetermined set of buffs to your party that you can set, only by pressing one button.

ed: added link https://www.nexusmods.com/pathfinderwrathoftherighteous/mods/15

Last edited by _Vic_; 26/09/21 01:58 PM.
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Originally Posted by Try2Handing
If there's one thing I can say I hope for in BG3 atm, then it's this: for the love of god I really hope playing a pure spellcaster in BG3 will be more fun than in these Pathfinder games.
I hear you, and for me it is that I hope BG3 will make playing a pure fighter at least as interesting as any other class.

As for wizards in Pathfinder, in Kingmaker I typically take Octavia in my parties and she delivers some spectacular offensive power for me.

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Originally Posted by _Vic_
Well, good news, there are some fun spells in D&D5e , even the cantrips. Many of them have interesting secondary effects added that are tactically useful and fun, like the pull effect of the vines, the summoning weapons that attack the enemy every turn, the flaming/waters sphere you can roll over tthe enemies "Raiders of the lost ark" style, the knocking effect of gust of wind and tide, planar shifting, merge into stone if they apply that... I am sure many of the spells would appear in the games.

Bad news, most of them you can only cast once at a time, due to the concentration mechanics of 5e. I´m not talking about the one that allows you to disrupt the caster´s concentration dealing damage to the caster, that makes sense. I am talking about the fact that you can only concentrate on one spell at a time.
Many buffs do not reach the entire party of four, most of them are f unless you heighten, are for only them and require concentration, so you lose them if you want to cast offensive spells.
Heck, you cannot maintain the paralysis in a creature you have with "hold person/monster", maintaining an animal/creature conjured (besides creating undead and similar, that are not that good in versatility or offensively unless you are a necro or similar) or cast a wall of fire or a storm without losing the previous spells.

I understand the need of those if you want to make a more dynamic tabletop game, with a faster pace and let your players focus on roleplaying and having fun... but I do not know if that simplification of the rules are really necessary for a videogame, where the game engine makes all the rolls for you no matter how complicated they are, takes care of all the calculations for all the spells you have activated and makes the enemies turn faster than what a human DM usually could achieve.

Those mechanics that make a roleplay table session more dynamic and fun make the videogame experience more limited than it could be. And I talk specifically of the concentration mechanics. Plenty of options for your casters, but they are reduced to cast cantrips or make the same tactical combos in every fight because they could only maintain one spell at a time so other combinations are forbidden. Double that because neither Solasta nor Bg3 allows multiclassing right now so you have to deal with one spellbook.

Solasta, even tho it makes the warriors more interesting, still has this limitation when you play casters. It follows very tightly the rules of D&D5e, so almost all the spells of the SRD are in the game, which is good, and they are applied as it is, purely RAW. In my runs I usually find myself repeating the same combos again and again even when trying new characters due to that limitation. They show you all the candy, but they only let you get one. You get the impression of a loss of potential of that formula, so many cool things you could do if you do not have to deal with the limited (for a videogame) concentration mechanics.

Bg3 added some interesting mechanics that allow you to have more options in combat. Since they made some rules changes I am still hoping that the devs or some mods would offer a solution that could make you have more versatility when you want to play pure casters. In D&D5e you can even make parties of casters-only so this addition would be very welcome.
I agree with much of this, and do believe the intent of 5e was to try and achieve a middle path between 2e and 3.5e, both in things like wizards/fighters being too powerful or not powerful enough, and in things like 2e being very simplistic with gameplay mechanics and rules options while 3.5e was criticized for rules "bloat." The open question, though, is whether and the extent to which they were truly successful in achieving this middle path. I personally still find 5e to be unfair in how lame the fighter class is, and also find the overall gameplay mechanics to be on the simplistic side. I especially don't like that in 5e the distinctiveness between classes has been watered down. If you are going to have a class-based system, the classes need to (strongly) mean something.

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Fighters in 5e have some pretty serious nova potential. Honestly, one of the stronger classes IMO.

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Speaking about 2e games -- I hadn't played any of the P&P back then (my P&P experience was mainly from the German Das Schwarze Auge); but it didn't at all bother me that fighers were basically brutish click-attack characters much, whilst it was mainly the casters who later on got real options. I wasn't playing a single character after all (unless going solo), but controlling and managing an entire party. This didn't merely apply to the IE games, but SSI games before that too. Seeing it from the party perspective too you can easily see how the complexity would multiply across all characters if they were all equally equipped.

In something like Deadfire even melee characters are almost pseudo-wizards, to quote a Codex review ("that throw not-spells left and right".) Mind you, I enjoyed Deadfire quite a lot, personally. But there seems to be a pursuit to make every character about equal and flashy in their skills -- which imo they needn't necessarily be. A fighter can have naturally more options than to click-attack, logical ways to improve that would be different fighting stances, combat styles and such. However, at some point, it may go a tad far or make characters actually feel samey, as the abilities feel just like a magic spell -- plus from my take it isn't necessary to make each class as complex as the other (to play but also to manage). Deadfire made a great distinction between passive and active abilities, so you could focus on one or the other.

BG1's melees are too simplistic. But even there I have to admit, sometimes there's something appealing in the simplicity when I fire up the game, make a solo melee brute, ramp up his CON and STR, equip him with the right gear and just let him ramp through the game without much further management. Or when I open up Icewind Dale and create an entire party of Dwarven fighters who would play out similar(and that's coming from someone who usually loves options).

Last edited by Sven_; 26/09/21 05:10 PM.
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Originally Posted by dwig
Fighters in 5e have some pretty serious nova potential. Honestly, one of the stronger classes IMO.

Oh yeah, fighter is a very solid class, but I think he meant that, besides battlemaster, eldrich knight or shield-basher users and maybe a few homebrew ones, the mechanics of playing a fighter are the same as Sven said, pick a weapon of choice and "I attack" and [Insert here the added damage of your subclass or feat, being arcane archer, echo, gunslinger, champion,...] and then "I attack twice" "I attack thrice" action surge and... well you know. Rinse and repeat in all the fights for 20 levels.
Playing tabletop that´s not a big of an issue because you can roleplay things while you are "I ATTACK!"- ing , but in a videogame...

Same with "I protect" in the enemy´s turn if you are a cavalier, rune knight or use protection style. In the Solasta videogame, it´s made automatically so it's useful but not very compelling. I do not know if that would ever reach BG3, since they do not seem to like much the reactions of 5e.

You can basically play with two buttons: Move and attack. There are people that find this not very fun. At least in the videogames, you manage a party so it´s not that monotone (unless you are playing multiplayer) It was discussed before in this thread.

Last edited by _Vic_; 26/09/21 06:12 PM.
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Yeah, fighter may be boring, but that's different from weak (which they are not). I think its fine that different classes require different levels of engagement to master, since that covers a wider variety of play styles.

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Oh yeah reminds me of one thing great about pathfinder

NO FUCKING STUPID BARRELMANCY TO STATIC ENEMIES OR ANNOYING SURFACES

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Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
I couldn't beat the superboss Playful Darkness in chapter 3 because I didn't have anyone capable of targeting her low touch AC besides Ember, nor did I have save DCs high enough to nail her down and lower her actual AC with my crowd control spells. Meanwhile I found the chapter 4 superboss laughably easy in comparison. Though I've heard Playful Darkness can actually be cheesed by abusing the environment - I've seen people talking about how she can supposedly be attacked out of range of your party by the area where the group of Succubi are.

I've seen Playful Darkness get mentioned here a couple of times - in Owlcat's defense, I'll say he's actually doable without having to resort to specific spells or Touch AC (at least on Core - haven't gotten to him on my current Unfair yet).

Hitting his 68 AC is almost like a pop quiz on the resources you have available to you and how to stack them all.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com][Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

The easiest and most readily available tool for this fight is Finnean the Talking Sword, which I think almost everyone should have (notice the 14 AC swing with GMW). All the buffs in both cases are pretty readily available - the one somewhat out of the way buff is Guarded Hearth (Nobility Domain, grabbed via Impossible Domain). But Sosiel has Touch of Good by default, which will also give you an equivalent or even higher sacred bonus to hit (just clunkier to use).

I was talking to someone on Reddit about this fight, and we figured out that Playful Darkness is classified as a Monstrous Humanoid, so you need to actually use Instant Enemy on him with Aru.


This kind of goes back to my earlier post about the 2 major methods to dealing with difficulty in this game - "Brute Force" vs. "Figure out the Puzzle". IMO it's both the best and worst parts of the difficulty design in this game. Because they haven't invested in a sophisticated AI, or included enough complex encounter design, bloating the enemy stats is the most common way Owlcat ramp up the difficulty in encounters.

The toughest (and my favorite) fight in all of WoTR is also the one fight where I thought Owlcat really did put in the effort in the encounter design. Sadly those are pretty rare in WoTR. It was a particular battle in act 4:

The "secret" fight you get if you follow and figure out the Mysterious Runes sets across the city. It's one of those fights where IMO it's a properly designed encounter, not with a single boss with bloated stats, but a huge mixed team of enemies that target your various weaknesses. You are absolutely outnumbered, and the enemies are incredibly mixed (archers, demons, alchemists, kineticists, all targeting your various defenses.

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On the subject of "pure Spellcasters being weak" in WotR, watching Nenio walk into a room at the end of chapter 4 and let off her first Weird and watching half that room up and die is something no Martial will ever achieve. You can make it even more so if you go Demon path Phantasmal Mage since you can cast Mind Fog as a Swift Action wit Sorcerous Reflex, cast a Persistent Weird, with Demon's additional DC boosts, as a Move action, then cast another Persistent Weird as your Action. Nothing that isn't a boss survives that on Core - almost ever encounter can be ended in 1 round.

Before you get to the amazing stuff though, spellcasters are still good shit, no martial can drop and entire room into a Pit of Acid to be dissolved at your leisure. It's not 2e since the biggest change with 3e was stripping back the spellcasters ability to become immune to all damage. Instead they became masters of Save or Die. Direct damage can still be effective but its all the other stuff that make them so powerful.

Last edited by alice_ashpool; 26/09/21 10:43 PM.
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