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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by TheAscendent
So does Astarion look enough like an Elf?
To me, his appearance errs too much on the side of "human".
Agreed ...
Quite handsome human tho ...

//Edit:
Same story with Halsin ... he is TOTALLY pointy eared human, without any doubt. :-/
But oddly enough i like him that way. O_o

To have some faces that would be strictly elvish would be accpetable to me.

Have anyone of you ever done herritage test? laugh
Our origins are mixed as hells ... i mean, i dont want to mess this topic more than it allready is ...
But would be so huge problem to look at elves with human facial features as elves whos blood was probably not so pure few dozen generations back? :P

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 20/09/21 11:14 AM.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Wait! Look closer Everyone! Elves have longer pointed ears than half elves. So they ARE totally different. 😏

I do get why many have an issue. If this was a game for star wars or star trek, and someone made a bunch of models for a race like the chiss, but they only gave them dark skin, that would be dumb. There are more distinguishing traits for the race than mere pointy ears.

You could - for example - have a half-elf with "normal" (i.e., human) ears, but with especially elven eyes. There you go...more variety.

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Lol. But you wouldn't know they were half-elf without the partially pointy ears!

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Lol. But you wouldn't know they were half-elf without the partially pointy ears!

I do favor the typical half-elf featuring at least somewhat pointy ears, yeah. You could also go with eye color (if eye shape/size isn't obvious enough) and/or skin color.

--- --- ---

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Sun_elf

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Like all of the Tel-quessir, the sun elves were close to the height of humans, but with notable differences. Sun elves had bronze-colored skin and hair most often of copper, golden blond, and black, with red more uncommon but not unheard of. Sun elves typically had green eyes, though golden ones were also common, often with a liquid appearance, and silver, black, hazel, or copper hues had also been heard of.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Moon_elf

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Like all elves, the Teu-tel-quessir were tall, close to humans in height, but more slender and beautiful. Moon elf skin was pale, often with an icy blue hue. Moon elf hair was commonly black, blue, or silvery white, although human-like colors were heard of as well, though very rare. Moon elf eyes, like those of other elves, were very commonly green, although some were blue as well. All exhibited a characteristic best described as golden flecks speckled through the iris.

https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Drow

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Drow skin tones ranged from dark grey, jet-black, and obsidian, (with various shades of blue), the albino drow known as the Szarkai being an exception. Drow had white, black, or purple teeth, while their gums, tongues, and throats could be red, pink, or purple.

Drow eyes could be of any color, with bright red being the most common. Pale shades that appeared nearly white of blue, lilac, pink, or silver were also frequent. Drow with green, brown, black, amber, or rose-hued eyes existed, but they were rare. Purple or blue eyes indicated surface elves and/or human ancestry. The color of a drow's eyes could also be indicative of their current mental or physical state; drow eyes reddened when they were angry, and turned yellow when they were sick, poisoned, or under some negative magical influence.

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Originally Posted by Argonaut
I don't believe the humanization of elves has done anything other than take away something magical and intriguing from the high fantasy genre in every dimension.

It also makes this particular fantasy work look no different from other fantasy works on the market that also went with the path of least resistance.

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I finally took a look at that "Halsin" chap. Judging by his skin tone, he appears to have been based on a wood elf. His overall physiology is an outlier as far as 3e elves go...his player must have rolled maximum height (6' 6") and weight (260 lbs). Putting aside his obvious bulk, his physiognomy isn't elfin in the slightest. Someone joked that he must be an orc; I am inclined to call him an "usually handsome half-orc that strongly favors his human half".

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Originally Posted by Zandilar
which implies they are much closer on a genetic level than you'd think.

Can we not try to science the magic, please cool?

(Yes, I just used "science" as a verb.)

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We could also refrain from troping the fantasy. As I've said before, the elves of this game are a breath of fresh air, and I hope they never change. I'm tired of developers trying to make everything different and distinct just for the sake of it - elves are similar to humans in FR. They have slightly different features (which the game reflects imo) and some of them possess an eerily different skin tone, like green for wood elves, or gold/blue for sun/moon elves. Oh, and drow look awesome. Especially their assassin-style leather armor with cowls.

Just checked the editor, and there are no bronze/gold skin colors for sun elves. That's weird, I would give them the sulphur skin color line as default.

Last edited by Moradin's hammer; 28/09/21 11:47 AM.
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the elves of this game are a breath of fresh air

Closer to "a breath of 2001 air", more like it.

Originally Posted by Moradin's hammer
I'm tired of developers trying to make everything different and distinct just for the sake of it

Ah, this isn't a matter of "different for difference's sake"; that's literally how they are described in canon.

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With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races. They are slightly shorter than humans on average, ranging from well under 5 feet tall to just over 6 feet. They are more slender than humans, weighing only 100 to 145 pounds. Males and females are about the same height, and males are only marginally heavier than females.

Elves' coloration encompasses the normal human range and also includes skin in shades of copper, bronze, and almost bluish-white, hair of green or blue, and eyes like pools of liquid gold or silver. Elves have no facial and little body hair. They favor elegant clothing in bright colors, and they enjoy simple yet lovely jewelry

The above excerpt is from the 5e PHB, mind you. Anyone even moderately interested can look at PHBs from virtually every edition in addition to FR campaign setting guides across the years and they'll see essentially the same description. Nowhere are elves simply described as "They appear as humans, but with elongated ears."

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Originally Posted by Moradin's hammer
As I've said before, the elves of this game are a breath of fresh air, and I hope they never change.
Agree!

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They got the skin color part right, aside from sun elves not getting the yellow options. And what did they get wrong per this description? Haunting beauty? There were a few nice faces in the editor, weren't there?

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People forget that Aerie is a (surface) elf; elves mature at a slower rate than humans. However, Underdark drow - despite also being elves - are forced to mature quickly thanks to their dog-eat-dog culture.

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I mean according to lore elves reach physical maturity by the age of 25 but not considered fully adults by their society until they are at least 100 years old. Drows are distinct as you say, cause they view physical maturity as paragon compared to psychological or social adulthood.

Last edited by spacehamster95; 29/09/21 06:58 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
People forget that Aerie is a (surface) elf; elves mature at a slower rate than humans. However, Underdark drow - despite also being elves - are forced to mature quickly thanks to their dog-eat-dog culture.
I think you are switching two concepts here ...
Its one thing when your body transformation is finaly complete ... you stop growing ... and therefore you are physicaly mature.
And its another thing, when society is forcing you to take rights and responsibilities ... and therefore since that moment you are concidered mature.

I dont quite see any conection to models that are used for Baldur's Gate elves tho. laugh


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Look, bottom line is, it can't hurt to offer more elvish models. Just don't take away the ones we have or lock them out just because you chose elf.

Seriously, I still don't get the fuss about elves not being elfish enough. Take us humans. Are we all one skin tone, one body type? Do we all have pointy noses or all flat noses? Are we all tall, or all short?

No. So why can't elves also be diverse? Must all sun elves have the same skin tones with "fey" features? Can't some have pudgy noses?

Oh wait. It's because race means that you belong to a certain genetic pool. If you saw an oriental person, and they said they were full-blooded African, that would make no sense. Why? Because both descended from two different ancestral lines, forming different genetic pools. An African would not have the same characteristics as an Asian and vice versa unless they intermarried.

So the same should be true for elves, dwarves, humans, etc. An elf should not have a pudgy nose like a dwarf because it's simply not in their bloodlines. They aren't typically huge, like Halsin, because genetically, that's not a thing.

But then... Sometimes nature happens. A man with short parents is super tall. A woman with who are blond has dark hair.

So, I say that yes, there should be more elfish models, but not all elves need to be elfish. Some can look like pretty humans with pointy ears. Halsin is also fine as an exception. Maybe there's some human blood mingled in there distantly. Who knows?

Oh! Speaking of which, why can't WE create characters with Halsin's body type? The model's there! 😠

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@GM4Him

I agree with all you said ...
The problem here is that there isnt just "some elves" with pudgy noses or without widened and slanted eyes ...

Curently its all of them and that is what people are criticising here. :-/

I mean, i would cerainly keep few elves as they are ... the more elvish they look, the better, and some exceptons too (Halsin, Kagha, ...) but they really should be exceptions. laugh


Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 30/09/21 05:36 AM.

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Originally Posted by henbit
Thread's too long to read the whole thing but:

I think this is probably just an EA issue? Agreed though, I was definitely a bit sad when I realized that Humans, Elves, Half-Elves, and tieflings all share the same body model. Isn't that probably just because the bodies are lower development priority at this point though?

Also, the female Githyanki is just the generic female model as well I believe.

Elves should DEFINITELY get their own body model at the very least, and yeah, the heads and facial hair feel way too human.

Thanks guys!

Yes, even the tieflings were a more varied bunch back during 2e; all one needs to do is to skim through the various Planescape supplements and they'll see this to be true.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Look, bottom line is, it can't hurt to offer more elvish models. Just don't take away the ones we have or lock them out just because you chose elf.

Seriously, I still don't get the fuss about elves not being elfish enough. Take us humans. Are we all one skin tone, one body type? Do we all have pointy noses or all flat noses? Are we all tall, or all short?

No. So why can't elves also be diverse? Must all sun elves have the same skin tones with "fey" features? Can't some have pudgy noses?

Oh wait. It's because race means that you belong to a certain genetic pool. If you saw an oriental person, and they said they were full-blooded African, that would make no sense. Why? Because both descended from two different ancestral lines, forming different genetic pools. An African would not have the same characteristics as an Asian and vice versa unless they intermarried.

So the same should be true for elves, dwarves, humans, etc. An elf should not have a pudgy nose like a dwarf because it's simply not in their bloodlines. They aren't typically huge, like Halsin, because genetically, that's not a thing.

But then... Sometimes nature happens. A man with short parents is super tall. A woman with who are blond has dark hair.

So, I say that yes, there should be more elfish models, but not all elves need to be elfish. Some can look like pretty humans with pointy ears. Halsin is also fine as an exception. Maybe there's some human blood mingled in there distantly. Who knows?

Oh! Speaking of which, why can't WE create characters with Halsin's body type? The model's there! 😠

Ya'll know my stance by now: the base elf ought to fall within a certain range of features unique to Corellon's kids while outliers (e.g. the elf with a human ancestor or the elf that comes from an unusually muscular lineage of elves) are allowed go beyond the bounds here and there. What I think bothers me most is a game set in the Forgotten Realms featuring atypical elves that look primarily human...as the norm; once a standard elf shows up, they're going to be regarded by players as something of an oddity. In other words, the peculiar becomes ordinary and the ordinary becomes peculiar.

I still wonder how different a BG3 Aerie or Jaheira is going to look compared to their original selves.

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
...
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With their unearthly grace and fine features, elves appear hauntingly beautiful to humans and members of many other races. They are slightly shorter than humans on average, ranging from well under 5 feet tall to just over 6 feet. They are more slender than humans, weighing only 100 to 145 pounds. Males and females are about the same height, and males are only marginally heavier than females.

Elves' coloration encompasses the normal human range and also includes skin in shades of copper, bronze, and almost bluish-white, hair of green or blue, and eyes like pools of liquid gold or silver. Elves have no facial and little body hair. They favor elegant clothing in bright colors, and they enjoy simple yet lovely jewelry

The above excerpt is from the 5e PHB, mind you. Anyone even moderately interested can look at PHBs from virtually every edition in addition to FR campaign setting guides across the years and they'll see essentially the same description. Nowhere are elves simply described as "They appear as humans, but with elongated ears."

The quoted part is exactly the way I would like to have my elves, and I'm not a DnD fan.

On the other hand, why Larian should not consequently use one body for humans, dwarves, elves, tieflings, devils, goblins, (small) giants, and all the other nonsensical fantasy racial stuff anyway? Easy programming for the win. crazy

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Look, bottom line is, it can't hurt to offer more elvish models. Just don't take away the ones we have or lock them out just because you chose elf.
Is anyone asking to get rid of any of the models that already exist? I hope not - there's few enough as it is.

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Seriously, I still don't get the fuss about elves not being elfish enough. Take us humans. Are we all one skin tone, one body type? Do we all have pointy noses or all flat noses? Are we all tall, or all short?

No. So why can't elves also be diverse? Must all sun elves have the same skin tones with "fey" features? Can't some have pudgy noses?
This argument is a non-starter. Yes, there is diversity among modern humans - but few if any of us would be mistaken for Neanderthals with big foreheads, in spite of our close relation and shared genes.

Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, Humans, etc. are of different "kinds" (a pre-modern idea perfectly suitable for a high fantasy setting) with different origins, and while there may be wide diversity within each group, no one is going to mistake a pudgy-nosed Elf for a Dwarf or a dashingly handsome Halfling for a Human.

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