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So it seems like there might be some miscommunication here.

1. As I said in my posts, my examples are of an alternative approach to the wireframe modelling approach because it might be quicker to make use of pre-existing assets in game
2. I never proposed a model. The quick edit was never meant as a definitive or even first attempt statement about the correct dimensions/characteristics of a halfings , again I was showing a possible tool rather than a product
3. The heads can be changed in the character building screen so they're most likely separate assets that could have separate scaling to make them as bobblehead or not as you want.
4. And even without that separate scaling maybe using humans scaled down or different heads might be more suitable than the default high elf body andhead I used for that example


On the topic of headsize rather than the topic of an alternative tool, Halfling headsize seems like a personal opinion more than anything else and varies from edition to edition so I can't see any resolution between people in that area. The rough example I posted earlier could be seen as similar in proportions to the 3e icon Lidda the halfling rogue, which isn't exactly how I see halflings but is obviously how some others see halflings and that's fine. On a biological note (as much as that matters in a fantasy world with fey, magic etc) If Lidda the halfling rogue 3e icon can survive as a flesh and blood halfling with such proportions in the prime then so can others. Maybe that body type would represent ghostwise halflings rather than Lightfoot halflings or stoutheart halflings etc

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That's how I read it and it seemed like a pretty good solution to me. Or as a possible approach to modding the game, in the event that Larian doesn't touch anything and just pushes it out the door this way.

I think they are using the same basic phenotype (just with different heads) for their Goblins too, even though we don't have access to those as a PC. It also feels like they are having everyone stand at like 1.5 meters tall, because their camera framing is currently so rigid, and that's just what it takes not to have the figure cropping out of view constantly in their standard dialog cutscenes. I'd rather they come up with a more dynamic camera scheme for that and have the camera key off the model's line of sight, rather than transforming the models to suit the static camera.

Striving for realism (like say with skull sizes) is a fun mental exercise, but we're not this discerning in other areas. I mean we have giant spiders, even though their exoskeletons are completely impossible by real world standards. The giant weta clocks in at what like 3 ounces at most? I mean its big, but it's not anywhere near "giant spider in D&D" levels of big. Same deal for dragons that could actually fly, or imps with tiny wings hovering about. The answer to these issues in D&D is always pretty much the same, e.g. fantasy magic, and everyone just nods.

I agree most of the stuff we've been discussing comes down to preference, whether one prefers a Lidda or a Bilbo, or how far the BG3 depictions stray from other depictions in the source material. I think having a different phenotype based whether they're Lightfoot or Stoutheart or whatnot is also a viable approach. The main concern though is that, if they are already struggling this hard to animate Dwarves, creating yet more unique wireframes with different proportions that then have to be animated independently might be problems. Hence the expedient of just shrinking down existing assets, for something that is workable. I'd guess the Human animated models use some form of motion capture as the basis, (whether Larian is actually building that, or just using something more off the shelf, I couldn't say) but it appears that the Human animations work reasonably well. I don't think they should ashcan the work they've already done animating Halfling models, but just shift it to the Dwarves.

I don't really like the 5e art that I've seen for Halflings. I think its annoying that they spent 2 and a half editions revamping the Halfling look in the art direction, only to completely reverse course and be all retro with massive domes in 5e. We can see from the mines what the Gnomes, Dwarves and Halflings will probably end up looking like in BG3, but I just think its a bummer they can't make a place for the other look, cause I definitely preferred it.

I would take a Ghostwise Halfling sub-race with a distinct phenotype more at 1:2 and call it even I guess, if they'd give us that at least.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 07/10/21 09:09 PM.
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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I don't really like the 5e art that I've seen for Halflings. I think its annoying that they spent 2 and a half editions revamping the Halfling look in the art direction, only to completely reverse course and be all retro with massive domes in 5e.

Well, just remember that much of the artwork I posted in the initial pages of this thread is actually from official 5e books, and several are even from the PHB itself. In terms of style, the bobble-head image that takes pride of place in the halfling's section is actually in a minority in terms of depicted style - the very same book contains several instances of much more appropriate artwork. That was part of the thrust of the initial discussion, after all - that, contrary to common opinion, the whole bobble-head look is *not* the official 5e look, because there is more official art in official books that displays far more reasonable proportions, and the most commonly referenced art piece is far more stylised. A large part of the initial discussion was specifically to remove the "That's just how they are in 5e" fall-back argument from the table, because it's actually not.

https://i.imgur.com/ahnSyis.png (Xan)

https://i.imgur.com/3fhpuXE.png (Mad Mage)

https://i.imgur.com/7U8JKmx.png (Sword Coast)

https://i.imgur.com/WxvForT.png (Out of the Abyss)

https://i.imgur.com/KwZzk8U.png (PHB)

In particular what we see is that, in the official artwork, the less overly stylised the pieces become, the more sensible and realistic the halfling proportions become as well.

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Originally Posted by Umbra
This thread bugged me. I'm disabled myself, and people getting written out of realitity bugs me. Forgotten Realms alone is ahuge concept, and everyone should find themselves in it. It does seem that in order to avoid offense ( and not ness by the folks concerned) too much is being deneid. I'd love to be able to take a crippling disabilty and turn it around in my fantasy game. An enchanted set of Knee Bracers that add +2 to Dex. Can't have in real life, but could have an adventure, and bring home to other folks the effect of a disabilty ( literally, - to a ability score, it's what got me using Drow in the first place, back when they had that level reduction).

Real humans (H.Sapiens that is) have large skulls for a reason; to hold our large brains. I looked up H. floresiensis and it's fucking fasinating, and how it's different to micrcephaly and pygmyism. I'd recommend reading up on that first. But, to not diverge too much, the models shown would need a lot more in the the forehead region to carry the sentient, sapient processing capacity of a person. Small seems less important, so long the right centres of the brain have the room they need.

To be blunt, the proposed model would be OK for faries or other races where the magical is more important than the physical reality. Sorry Testy, that would be fine for a magical race from another plane, but not a flesh-and-blood person from the Prime. A differnt skull shape is needed, more forehead.

Super-little people could be a lot oF fun, we've had Auntie Ethel, an encounter with the Seelie or Unseelie could be fun, any being looking to Godhood will affect the Realms around them, why not have the Fey courts take notice of the Absolutes actions? ( I personally love how the Fey can upset everything just by being themselves...) ( Yes, I know, I'm an unashamed Warlock and would love more Fey in the game. More of most stuff honestly. I'm not a tabletopper myself, but I'd look for someone who could ride the craxy if I was! Player agency should be whatever imagination can bring!).

But leave the hurtful prejudgices at the door, there's not enough representation as is. Taking out is not a positive step.

Do you even play d&d? Do you realize what a halfling even looked like in 3-4e?

BTW all elves are from the feywild, the only ones still located their is Eladrin. No, don't need "fey" races its seriously half the roster right now.

Maybe you should do some googling on FR or d&d period before coming on the forums pointing fingers.

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@TestyMcTesterson the height comparison is what I was referring to. Generally remember halflings being roughly below croch area or more than half a persons thigh when standing side by side.

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Well however one feels about the art of late, one thing it continues to illustrate pretty clearly (and which you also stressed in opening pages) is that Larian's Halflings are way too tall.

Thumbing through the old tomes, I just wanted to show what was probably one of the smaller depictions from the AD&D era. From Easley's "Dungeon Horde" a slightly desaturated version of which was used as the cover for "The Dungeoneer's Survival Guide" in 1986. It was a clutch text at the time, especially for introducing several non-weapons proficiencies and skills to the game and for providing details on how to map cavernous dungeons in 3 dimensions, among other things. But I just wanted to show the cover...


[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

There among all the mini-minions, who look like they'd be giving Stephen Dorff nightmares a year later in the hollywood film "The Gate" hehe, is that little guy brandishing the dagger and hanging on for dear life at knee height. I mean he's small!

Even with some allowances for foreshortening, he's not even waist high. That dude could definitely run between the legs of a medium sized Human standing at 2 meters. Sure he's got the squat proportions and the somewhat larger skull, but there's no confusion about who has the bigger head between him and the Human. He's also stacked! I mean he's practically sporting Halsin guns there. Look at that definition in the shoulders. Not that this is the Apex of Halfling images per se, but I think it gives a really cool sense of scale, and shows how a Halfling has a much smaller read than say a Dwarf. I mean the difference between 1 meter tall (or shorter) and 1.5 meters tall is pretty considerable.

Landing a cool Halfling image was always a challenge, and I still find most of the newer official artwork kind of disappointing to be honest, but I'm a little harsh. The first generation of digital painting which formed the basis for post 3e artwork always grated a bit when presented next to work done in traditional media at the time. A lot of things made it into the books and even onto covers which felt more like WIPs to me. They used to do the same sort of stuff in first and second edition AD&D, but generally for the smaller inserts they'd go with a pen and ink 2 tone style that was more graphic and bold. In the post 3e materials they started including drafts in color for the insets, like the equivalent of digital pencil sketches, or the same thing but with a color wash overlaid, or done in vignette. I think much of that artwork was pretty weak from like 2000-2010. Probably because the tools were still in their infancy, and it takes some time for the work to catch up. In the intervening decade digital painting has taken off, and now its often hard to tell whether someone is using oils or playing with pixels. We now have digital masters to choose from these days, but they're probably hoping to get paid by TOR or Magic the Gathering, rather than doing the D&D grunt work sadly. I think D&D has become the place where people cut their teeth now, but that's a digression. Main point being, they need to at least make the Halflings look like they are standing at 3 ft tall 1 meter, and right now that's not the case.

Even if they just ended up shrinking the current Halfling models by 1:2 I'd be happier with them. I don't think they'd look as cool as some of the Lidda depictions or 3e Halfling figurines, but it would be better than what we have in game currently. Just as an aside, I think some of the illustrators in the 3e period sexualized Lidda a bit overmuch. Like I recall that one illustration making the rounds, where she seemed to be taking her pants off in front of the ancient monument. That was done in rather poor taste I think, but she looked pretty badass in many of the other "action" shot illustrations. I think I'd be pretty satisfied with a compromise, where they allowed that phenotype to still exist as a Halfling subrace. Since it seems to be somewhat contentious, at least that would give a place for both renditions to coexist.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 08/10/21 04:13 AM.
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Is that pic upside down?

Nice picture BTW & ya pics from 90s had that theme to them. All guys had muscles on muscles with woman top decked and revealing.

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Yeah sorry, my phone snapper was being weird there. I re-uploaded it with a proper orientation and spoilered just so it wouldn't make the page lag too much.

I just thought it was a good example of Halfling from the old school era, who has the more stout and stylized proportions, but was also buff, and most importantly tiny.

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Wasn't sure if it was my phone or the pic. An ya I gotcha, I should look up more old art, never seen that before, but I would of been 3 back then.

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Yeah I was like 5 myself, but some of the older kids in the neighborhood had some cool stuff. Also things tended to kick around for a bit longer on the bookshelves back then, or swoops at garage sales.

I remember "The Art of the Advanced Dungeons & Dragons Fantasy Game" though, it was one of the first art books I ever picked up at Tower. Along with Giger's Necronomicon, a Dali folio, and probably some turtles and aliens comics maybe, back when the Xmas gift certificate was like a novel invention lol. I feel old sometimes, other times not so much, but I think they were all reissued in the 90s with a bunch of 2nd edition rebranding. In that one they give Elmore, Caldwell, Easley and Parkinson top billing so like late 80s flair. They all have some misses sure, but some masterpieces too in there. For more 90s looks I think of like the reissued "Masters of Dragonlance Art" that came out right around the turn of the century. It has a better cross-section survey, and Brom mainly for my sensibility lol. That guy was on the level for my teenage tastes. His painting "Lost Note" looks like something out the pre raphaelite era or like jugendstil endgame, so you know dude could paint a figure. Darkwerks, all that stuff is great. But predictably, there is a dearth of great Halfling art even going there.

I wish I could pull up a dozen images right now of Halflings that I think are spectacular, but I'd struggle to find any really. I think some of the Liddas had the vibe, but not the execution. I still like that proportionality for a figure though. It reminds of all the cool climbing rules and super dex slant that feels more action heroic to me. More Took I guess, to use the old speak.

I liked that direction, so it pains a bit to see the backtracker. I see Salamis and think, well ok cool, but what have they done for the Halflings and the Gnomes? I think what we're going to get is fat halflings with rounded ears, and skinny gnomes with pointed ears using essentially the same 4 and a half foot phenotype. With heads as large as Humans, because of the way their camera is set up. But I want Gnomes and Halflings to look small, like 1 meter or thereabouts. Not coming across in their current scaling at all for me.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 08/10/21 06:29 AM.
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Quote
Just as an aside, I think some of the illustrators in the 3e period sexualized Lidda a bit overmuch. Like I recall that one illustration making the rounds, where she seemed to be taking her pants off in front of the ancient monument. That was done in rather poor taste I think, but she looked pretty badass in many of the other "action" shot illustrations

Completely agree that

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To be fair, that shot of Lidda, the intention was that she wasn't stripping - just pulling down the band of her leggings far enough to compare one of her tattoos with a symbol that seemed identical on the statue... a strange curiosity. I know that's not necessarily an excuse, but as a lady of broad and varied appreciation, I forgive them for it <.< >.>

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Yeah I mean, I can forgive it as well, even without the context, obviously hehe. Because I think what they were trying to convey more generally was the idea that a Halfling PC could be more than just comic relief. So they selected art that went other directions, like cool action posing or some stuff with sex appeal. Like why not have a badass Halfling flash some hip flair while solving the puzzle I guess. We've seen it a thousand times for Humans and Elves, but like never usually with the shorties. But then those are the kinds of the things that can come into it when the proportions are a bit more subtle and rather less cartoonish in the extreme. Take that same Lidda image with a head twice or three times the size and it wouldn't carry the same way at all. Probably would feel twice or three times as crass, and more like a Mad Magazine cartoon or something lol.

Elmore has a similar image, but with a more 80s sensibility and the boots, so it's not like unique to the 3e Lidda stuff hehe. Not exactly his greatest painting ever, but still passing fair. I think he could have achieved a similar effect with more subtlety, but it's still pretty tame compared to the standard Human fair from the same period. I think 88

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

He tended to draw them fairly tall, also more proportional and elf-like. What we saw in Dragon Slayers for example.
[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

I think they had the most sex appeal of the AD&D Halfling depictions, mainly because their proportionality was closer to Human/Half-Elf just shorter in stature (though not quite as short as I'd like to see in BG3.)

Last edited by Black_Elk; 08/10/21 08:27 AM.
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That context definitely helps.

It's not that it's a sexualised halfling thats the issue for me, it's that the outfit / lack of equipment seems completely wrong for adventuring/roguery/out in the wilds, the same goes for elf's and humans in similar outfits. If it was somewhere that had safe equipment storage facilities and reasons for changing outfits/wearing less protection such as in a tavern, city or even a ship then it wouldn't be as incongruous.

As bad as that 80s one is, at least she's wearing gloves, a weapon and has rope and bag for loot making her look more prepared than Lidda investigating that standing stone

Last edited by TestyMcTesterson; 08/10/21 09:34 AM.
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Did they ever bother to do anything about this..

As it stands no one really wants to play these hideous things and modders totally avoid the class, so if you play Halflings in release expect no mods at all..

Please give us sliders and choices to fix these hideous hobbits. Or better still Larion please add proper D&D halflings.

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No, no model updates yet, unfortunately.

They have fixed most of the animations such that they line up properly now, and there's very little clipping, and that's nice, but it's still only a small consolation for the way they currently look.

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Which is a pity. It's not a small side topic either.

At times it feels like larian (and a lot of other developers) thinkd their own ideas and views the non-plus-ultra, no matter how many other opionins they get from their players, their customers. I admit that larian has done a lot since the beginning, but i criticise it nonetheless.

I have wanted to play a halfling but never did. I hate looking at my char and have this "urgh" feeling. I really hope that this is something they have on their agenda and only put back since it is "only" a graphical issue.

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I don't think you can really fault Larian because the fact is that depictions of halflings in official D&D art is so incredibly inconsistent, and every artist has had their own interpretation of what they should look like. Take even this thread for example. Some people want the halflings from 2e, some want 3e (I'm personally in the 2e barefoot Olive Ruskette camp). I don't think people can realistically expect them to be changed at this point, though even I concede that I'd like at the very least for their head size to come down a small amount.

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Adding my voice! For the Shire! We need proper looking halflings.

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Lithe elf-like halflings please. How am I supposed to believe the current models belong to a class with +2 dexterity?

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