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I know its fully subjective but I need to remove it from my chest. In Players handbook, page 202, passage Casting time - Bonus Action, quote: "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action" end of quote. Because of that, for example, Cleric can't use Healing Word + Cure Wounds. He can use Healing Word + Cantrip. So, same goes for Sorcerer... No two Fireballs in same turn!!! Its insane! Its 48 AOE Damage on average in one turn! He can Quicken Spell Freball + Cantrip.
But unfortunately this is not a case. He can use two spells with Quicken Spell. I know, I know its there game and they can make changes. They can release like 5.5e book with some changes (buffs and nerfs for some classes, subclasses or some changes to mechanical rules). Sure we don't need to like them so we can homebrew otherwise. I am just saying.

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We can also see from the Fighter's Action Surge how in BG3 one (legit) extra action can lead to trivializing encounters. OP stealth, abundant invisibility potions and poison/dipping combined with Action Surge create insane alpha strikes that murder bosses before they even get a turn.

Now that's going to be a lot worse on a high level Sorcerer who can cast two powerful spells per turn.

I noticed from the latest PFH that Swen likes to play this way himself, using meta knowledge (characters preparing for enemies they don't yet know are there, or stealing quest items from them). Metagaming is relevant because a lot of players are going to play this way too even if they might now particularily enjoy it, like myself. But you can't forget an encounter you know will be there. I think Larian should minimize the usefulness of this kind of metagaming knowledge to keep things fresh, interesting and also challenging. Make these enemies more aware and harder to surprise, especially bosses. I'd like more fair fights instead of puzzle fights that won't be a challenge after you crack the puzzle the first time.

Sorcerers doing Quickened double spells surprises from stealth will just mow through everything especially when you know what to expect.

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The ability to cast more than a cantrip makes the quicken spell really useful.
I like this change. I don't care that it will have a huge impact on the balance.
It is a SP game with optional cooperation which means it doesn't really matter.

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The 5E rules are kinda confusing, I can see why they ignored them. An easy fix would be to just say you can only quicken cantrips. That way you get a BA cantrip and can do something else with your action



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Originally Posted by LukasPrism
The 5E rules are kinda confusing,
Eh, not really. "Never allow two (non-cantrip) spells in the same turn" is as plain and inequivacable as it gets.


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That's also not correct, Tuco ^.^

For example...

If that was the rule, then you could never counterspell someone attempting to counterspell your fireball, the exact example given in the handbook... since that counterspell would be a second levelled spell that you would be casting on your turn.

The rule itself is very arbitrary, and very stupid, and it legitimately adds nothing to the game for existing, and absolutely SHOULD be ignored and dispensed with... because all it ACTUALLY does is trip player sup and limit them unnecessarily. It doesn't prevent any major exploits for existing, and it doesn't add to the fun and enjoyment of the game.

==

Imagine, if you will, two scenarios:

A 17Wizard/2Fighter Casts Meteor Swarm. Across the field, an enemy mage was waiting to counterspell the first thing that powerful caster did... The mage casting metoer swarm sees them, and, without interrupting their calling of meteors, expertly counterspells their attempted counterspell. Meteors rain down and decimate the field, and then, because they were somewhat irked at this, the powerful wizard then action surges, and levies an eighth level disintegrate at the impudent little upstart that had tried to counterspell her - the poor enemy caster can't counterspell this as they've already used their reaction, and they are disintegrated with great prejudice.

However... imagine scenario two:

The same powerful, high level wizard/fighter steps forward, but decides to raise a quick shield of faith over themselves before they begin calling their meteors... Across the field, and enemy mage, waiting to counterspell the first thing the powerful caster does... counterspells their shield of faith. The powerful mage, who always follows the rules as written in the handbook.... CANNOT counterspell the enemy mage: Counterspell is a levelled spell, and it is their turn, and they have cast a bonus action spell, so they are NOT ALLOWED. Moreover, they now CANNOT cast their meteor swarm. EVEN IF they Action Surge now, they STILL CANNOT cast their meteor swarm, or their disintegrate, or even a measly little magic missile at the enemy caster who foiled them. They throw a firebolt in disgust... it's all they can do.

This is the same mage, with the same abilities, following the by-the-book rules.

The bonus action spell rule is not a sensible rule, and it doesn't serve a legitimate value. There is no break in balance to allowing spells to be cast according to their required turn economy and nothing more; there actually aren't that many bonus action spells, and none of them break the balance of the game to accompany a normal levelled spell any more than many, many other things that other classes can do with impunity. (like, for example the fighter/warlock/pally who can nova off 11 spell slots in a single turn perfectly legally.)

==

Sorcerer, and Quicken Spell, IS the one exception to this, and it should be an exception. Quicken is the problem for which the above rule really exists, and it should apply to Quicken exclusively, not hobble all spellcasters everywhere.

Quicken should be written:

"When you cast a spell that has a casting time of 1 action, you can spend 2 sorcery points to change the casting time to 1 bonus action for this casting. If you cast a spell as a bonus action using this Metamagic, you can't use an action to cast another spell during the same turn, unless it is a cantrip."

Implement quicken that way, and remove the arbitrary bonus action spell overarching rule, and you'll have a much better game.

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Wait untill we get haste and muticlassing, casting 4 spells per turn, uff! Gonna be fun!

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The game should not be balanced for multiclassing, as these are usually terribly out of balance combinations. First of all, they should focus on balancing games for singular classes. Anyone who wants to break the game with some combo op (which is the purpose of such builds) will still be able to do it.
As for haste, it's fairly easy to fix. Make it not combined with quicken spell

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Somewhat off-topic, but I wonder if Larian's Haste implementation will allow level 5+ fighters to make multiple attacks with that haste action...

On topic: Yes, quicken should not allow you to cast 2-leveled spells in the same turn. Especially with the ease of long resting.

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Another way to get some balance would be to limit the maximum level of a spell you can use in a turn would be reduced by 1 for each spell cast.
This would prevent the player from being able to cast two or more fireballs in a given turn (at least for a large part of the game) without making the quicken spell a waste of points.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Somewhat off-topic, but I wonder if Larian's Haste implementation will allow level 5+ fighters to make multiple attacks with that haste action...

On topic: Yes, quicken should not allow you to cast 2-leveled spells in the same turn. Especially with the ease of long resting.
well, i was basing my comment on that fact! Speed potion is just a haste spell so if that is any indication of how haste will work. I guess we will just get one extra action like you get from action surge or potion of speed.

We can't forget that larain loves APs from dos 2 and i belive Dos 2 players love multiple actions per turn and larian knows that...


The real question is what will happen with extra attacks. smile

This is why we need level 5 cap fast so we can see if people will go insain or will they let Larian do it's thing and just let 5e rules slide in turn for more video game fun...

Last edited by Lastman; 15/10/21 06:55 PM.
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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Another way to get some balance would be to limit the maximum level of a spell you can use in a turn would be reduced by 1 for each spell cast.
This would prevent the player from being able to cast two or more fireballs in a given turn (at least for a large part of the game) without making the quicken spell a waste of points.
An interesting option, but it seems more complex to actually code than simply implementing RAW. Consider these examples:

1.) You quicken a 5th-level spell. Then you cast a 4th-level spell with your action. All good.
2.) You cast a 4th-level spell with you action. Then you quicken a 5th-level spell. Oh-woah hold on there, that's not allowed by this rule, even though it's literally the same as option #1.

In effect, this rule would either: a) only prevent the casting of two same-leveled spells during the same turn, or b)depend on the order you cast the normal vs quickened spell, which is what you suggested but eh this makes even less sense than the RAW BA/Action spell restriction.

It also still allows you to cast two incredibly powerful spells in the same turn. A Fireball plus a Wall of Fire is a lot of damage!

Last edited by mrfuji3; 15/10/21 07:04 PM.
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Originally Posted by Tuco
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
The 5E rules are kinda confusing,
Eh, not really. "Never allow two (non-cantrip) spells in the same turn" is as plain and inequivacable as it gets.

It’s actually not that simple. 5E won’t let you cast Shillelagh (which is a BA cantrip) and a levelled spell in the same round.

Or players might quicken a cantrip to a BA thinking they’ll use their action for a spell, then wonder why they can now only cast a second cantrip with a casting time of one action? It is one of the most kind-bending rules in 5E for new players. The way you’ve boiled it down to one phrase how you did shows you don’t fully understand it either.

Last edited by LukasPrism; 15/10/21 07:15 PM.


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Originally Posted by Lastman
We can't forget that larain loves APs from dos 2 and i belive Dos 2 players love multiple actions per turn and larian knows that...

...This is why we need level 5 cap fast so we can see if people will go insain or will they let Larian do it's thing and just let 5e rules slide in turn for more video game fun...

Sadly I'm seeing your point. It gets more and more obvious that Larian only wanted the IP for marketing reasons and have no interest in creating a game with 5e rules. And here I was looking forward to, what I hoped, would be a, as possible, perfect rendition of the tabletop game to a digital format. Oh well, maybe next time...

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Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Lastman
We can't forget that larain loves APs from dos 2 and i belive Dos 2 players love multiple actions per turn and larian knows that...

...This is why we need level 5 cap fast so we can see if people will go insain or will they let Larian do it's thing and just let 5e rules slide in turn for more video game fun...

Sadly I'm seeing your point. It gets more and more obvious that Larian only wanted the IP for marketing reasons and have no interest in creating a game with 5e rules. And here I was looking forward to, what I hoped, would be a, as possible, perfect rendition of the tabletop game to a digital format. Oh well, maybe next time...

Solasta.

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Maybe the table top rule sets are not good for video games. It's funny you guys are disappointed cause they did not implent the D&D 5e rules strictly and i am disappointed cause i
I realized that the D&D 5 rule set is too casual for me. But they have to make a great story with many well introduced npcs and mybe i can forget the poor character creation in this game.

Last edited by schpas; 15/10/21 09:43 PM.
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Originally Posted by DebuYarou
I know its fully subjective but I need to remove it from my chest. In Players handbook, page 202, passage Casting time - Bonus Action, quote: "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action" end of quote. Because of that, for example, Cleric can't use Healing Word + Cure Wounds. He can use Healing Word + Cantrip. So, same goes for Sorcerer... No two Fireballs in same turn!!! Its insane! Its 48 AOE Damage on average in one turn! He can Quicken Spell Freball + Cantrip.
But unfortunately this is not a case. He can use two spells with Quicken Spell. I know, I know its there game and they can make changes. They can release like 5.5e book with some changes (buffs and nerfs for some classes, subclasses or some changes to mechanical rules). Sure we don't need to like them so we can homebrew otherwise. I am just saying.

You don't need Quickened Spell to cast 2 leveled spells in the same turn, in this game. I've cast Misty Step and then Magic Missile with a Wizard, more times then I can count. And I've cast Healing Word + Cure Light Wounds in the same turn as well. Any spell that can normally cast with a bonus action can be followed or preceded by another leveled spell. Now I know it's not allowed in 5e, but it's been allowed in BG3 since the beginning.

I'm more concerned about the the extra Meta Magic Sorcerers get. Two at 2nd level, then another at 3rd, at least according to FextraLife on YouTube. Note they also make the Wiki page. According to 5e, it's 2 METAs at 3rd level and another at 10th, then another at 17th. Two at 2nd (instead of 3rd), with a 3rd on at 3rd level instead of 10th is way way OP.

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I don't really know DnD's rules about that but being able to cast 2 level 1+ spell with metamagic looks really OP.
I can't imagine how powerfull the sorcerer will be at higher level compared to any other caster.

I think it would be better balanced if you could only use 1 spell + 1 cantrip (or eventually level 1 spell) per turn with this metamagic option.

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It is OP. Killed the old hag in two rounds. casted scorching ray two times in one round with critical hit and the hag lost a lot of HP. Back in the old days of BG2 you could play the game only with one sorcerer (one man party). This was a lot of fun.

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Originally Posted by Merlex
You don't need Quickened Spell to cast 2 leveled spells in the same turn, in this game. I've cast Misty Step and then Magic Missile with a Wizard, more times then I can count. And I've cast Healing Word + Cure Light Wounds in the same turn as well. Any spell that can normally cast with a bonus action can be followed or preceded by another leveled spell. Now I know it's not allowed in 5e, but it's been allowed in BG3 since the beginning.
Yes, but the difference here is that normal BA spells are pretty weak. Healing Word, Misty Step, Sanctuary, etc. But since quicken can make any spell cost a BA, it allows for incredibly powerful turns. As in the example of fireball+fireball. A sorcerer could wipe out many enemies before they or any other character even gets a turn.

Edit: see the example given in schpas's comment above

Last edited by mrfuji3; 15/10/21 09:55 PM.
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