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I wasn't able to select quicken spell at level 2. Is it even in the game?

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Originally Posted by dwig
I wasn't able to select quicken spell at level 2. Is it even in the game?

Yes, there are more options at level 3...

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I don't really know DnD's rules about that but being able to cast 2 level 1+ spell with metamagic looks really OP.
I can't imagine how powerfull the sorcerer will be at higher level compared to any other caster.

I think it would be better balanced if you could only use 1 spell + 1 cantrip (or eventually level 1 spell) per turn with this metamagic option.

Casting 2 level 1+ spells has always been available to sorcerers via 5e rules.
A sorcerer can twin spells enabling them to cast 2 Chromatic orbs, cast Haste on two fighters, cast two disintegrates, etc. all in the same round.
A multi-class fighter sorcerer could action surge and cast 4 leveled spells in the same round all according to D&D 5e rules.

Currently in BG3 any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells in the same round by consuming a Potion of Speed.
Also any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells if one has a casting time of a bonus action and the other has a casting time of an action.

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Originally Posted by dwig
I wasn't able to select quicken spell at level 2. Is it even in the game?
They upped the cost of Quicken from 2 sorcery points in 5E to 3 sorcery points in BG3.

It's not available at 2nd level because your maximum sorcery points is only 2.

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Originally Posted by Alodar
They upped the cost of Quicken from 2 sorcery points in 5E to 3 sorcery points in BG3.
I suppose that's good? Given the increased power of being able to cast two-leveled spells... Hmmm, what if Quicken costed 2+spell level sorcery points? This would be roughly equivalent to RAW for quickening a cantrip and then scale with spell power. Casting two fireballs would cost 5 sorcery points which doesn't sound too unbalanced. A level 5 sorcerer could only do that 1x per day and that would use up all their points.

Obviously it'd be better/easier if Larian changed the quicken rules back to RAW, but it's an interesting idea to consider.

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You all shouldn't forget that even before Sorcerer was implemented people could easily cast 2 full spells in one turn with Haste potions / spores, so all things like 'I can cast Scorching Rays twice in a row and take out half of boss HP before his turn" were in the game before.

I think that there could be an easy solution to all this Sorcerer vs other classes efficiency dispute that also fits the already existing spells and items in the game.
Make a rule that forbids to cast more than two spells or perform more than two attack actions in a single turn. This rule alone would solve lots of issues with class balance:
- Wizards could just use Haste spell on themselves to cast 2 spells in one round, but need to spend a 3rd level spell slot and maintain Concentration to do so.
- Sorcerers can either use Quicken Spell (so that they can spend Concentation on something else, for example Web) or use the Haste spell, but can't combine them for more casts because of the "2 spells / round" limit.
- Fighters and multiclassed Fighters can use Action Surge or Haste potion / buff for second cast / attack action, but not both for 3+ actions.
- All other classes can just use a Haste potion or be a target of Haste spells to cast 2 spells / perform 2 attack actions per round.

This way:
- All classes have limited access to 2 actions / spells per round via either consumables, concentration spells or depletable resource / ability.
- Players of any class can still perform spell combinations without the tabletop restrictions.
- Sorcerers don't outperform Wizards as both classes have a way to cast 2 spells per turn, but can't cast 3 or more.
- Several OP multiclass combos like X Sorcerer / 2 Fighter which could potentially cast 3-4 spells in one turn are automatically restricted to 2 spells / turn just as all other classes are.

Last edited by Volsalex; 16/10/21 05:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by Volsalex
You all shouldn't forget that even before Sorcerer was implemented people could easily cast 2 full spells in one turn with Haste potions / spores, so all things like '"I can cast Scorching Rays twice in a row and take out half of boss HP before his turn" were in the game before.

I think that there could be an easy solution to all this Sorcerer vs other classes efficiency dispute that also fits the already existing spells and items in the game.
Make a rule that forbids to cast more than two spells or perform more than two attack actions in a single turn. This rule alone would solve lots of issues with class balance:
- Wizards could just use Haste spell on themselves to cast 2 spells in one round, but need to spend a 3rd level spell slot and maintain Concentration to do so.
- Sorcerers can either use Quicken Spell (so that they can spend Concentation on something else, for example Web) or use the Haste spell, but can't combine them for more casts because of the "2 spells / round" limit.
- Fighters and multiclassed Fighters can use Action Surge or Haste potion / buff for second cast / attack action, but not both.
- All other classes can just use a Haste potion or be a target of Haste spells to cast 2 spells / perform 2 attack actions per round.

This way:
- Players of any class can still perform cool spell combinations.
- Sorcerers don't outperform Wizards as both classes have a way to cast 2 spells per turn, but can't cast 3 or more.
- Several OP multiclass combos like X Sorcerer / 2 Fighter which could potentially cast 3-4 spells in one turn are automatically restricted to 2 spells / turn just as all other classes are.
Not a fan of this suggestion. BG3 allowing casters to cast 2 spells via haste (not allowed in 5e RAW) does not imply that sorcerers should also be able to do so via Quicken. Two wrongs don't make a right. This suggestion is treating the symptom of potential >2 spells per turn, not the underlying issue of imbalanced homebrew (or more likely, improper rule implementation due to lack of understanding).

If you make both not allowed (haste action can't be used to cast a spell, and quicken prevents you from casting non-cantrips):
- Players of any class can still perform spell combinations by using bonus action spells and cantrips.
- Sorcerers are supposed to be able to outperform wizards using metamagic - that's the whole point of the class. Wizards have versatility, sorcerers have bursts of power via metamagic. Giving wizards the same power bursts takes away from the sorcerer's unique-ness.
- Multiclass combos (X Sorcerer / 2 Fighter) can cast 2 spells in a turn, unlike other classes, but only once per short rest. This is powerful, but you lose 2 levels of sorcerer to get this, meaning that you're a whole spell level behind pure sorcerers. A ~fair tradeoff.

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The problem with the tabletop spell + cantrip rule is that it combined with random initiative order severely prohibits spell combinations. Full spells + cantrips have too little combinations to even work with. As for levelled spells, even if you have 2 party members with synergistic spells like Web and Fireball, they can be easily thrown around the order by the initiative roll the way that by the time the Fireball wielder gets his turn, target(s) might get their turn earlier and just break and run out of the Web wasting a spell combo just because of bad RNG. Moreover, Web wielder could just get his turn after the Fireball wielder to make things even worse.

That is why I suspect Larian did tweak the 5e spell rule for the first place - not because they didn't understand it, but more to promote creative thinking and actually allow many combos to happen without dependance on RNG as you execute them yourself. This has a downside that 2 spells / turn often is (close to) OP, but it can be solved via just limiting access to such a possibility. In Sorcerer's case, there are many ways to do it - from increased Sorcery Point cost for Quicken Spell if it is a levelled spell (as they already did, but in general) to manual limits like X times per short / long rest.

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Can you use two metamagic abilities on the same spell in BG3? I didn't try that and I guess the lack of sorcery points at level 3 makes it impossible anyway.

A double Fireball alpha strike at level 5 sounds like a balance nightmare. But a level 11 Sorcerer casting two Twinned Disintegrates sounds completely bonkers. An enemy Sorcerer could Disintegrate 4 PC's before anyone gets a turn. And if you can't... "just" a double Disintegrate on the same target also sounds like a balance nightmare.

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Casting 2 spells (not a spell and a cantrip) a round at low level is just overpowered - in the iterations of more modern D&D I played (WotC 3/3.5 + PF 1E) this has been a high level ability e.g. Quicken was spell level + 4 or thereabouts ...So simply not possible at lower levels.

I think the 5E sorcerers metamagic quicken is crazy ...I assume in TT it works (sort of) because you can't long rest willy nilly. But they really should have attached a cost related to spell level (so Larian are being sensible I think from a balance view..odd, they ignore it in so many other places). Clearly someone at WoTC didn't think this class through very well. Still, if it's the official rule, then you're liable to p'off sorcerer afficionados by changing it - and there are are more important things to change like classes using spells they shouldn't, swapping out spell slots when you want etc.

On a related note: haste is really overpowered and simply broken in BG3 if it allows you to cast another spell that you would not normally be able to cast - the 5E rules are fairly clear on what you can use the extra 'action' for, and casting a spell isn't allowed. An extra attrack - fine...but even guzzling potion/using a scroll (activation) isn't allowed, if you look at various rules discussions. And haste potions are so easly to find - haste is a 3rd level spell, we should barely see these potions in this early part of the game, and they should be extremely valuable. I already have 3 and I've just reached the Druid grove...Maybe this is an EA thing, have so much ready acces sto usables...I hope so.

With regards to initiative: in D&D, intiative is always somewhat variable - but it's biased by your stats like everything else (combat rolls, checks etc). The point is to be adaptable in combat - deal with what the dice have dealt and be strategic. The only annoyance that does impede strategy is the lack of a delay action so you can move down the turn order to better synchronize abilities. But rather than screwing with spell balance they should fix that. Pathfinder wrath does this perfectly - I use it all the time in TB mode.

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Originally Posted by booboo
I think the 5E sorcerers metamagic quicken is crazy ...I assume in TT it works (sort of) because you can't long rest willy nilly. But they really should have attached a cost related to spell level (so Larian are being sensible I think from a balance view..odd, they ignore it in so many other places). Clearly someone at WoTC didn't think this class through very well. Still, if it's the official rule, then you're liable to p'off sorcerer afficionados by changing it - and there are are more important things to change like classes using spells they shouldn't, swapping out spell slots when you want etc. .
It's not the official rule. The ability to cast a leveled spell after quickening a spell is Larian homebrew. There are a lot of problems with the official sorcerer class, but this isn't one of them. RAW, you're effectively paying 2 sorcery points to cast a cantrip (or take the Dodge/Disengage action), which is not that powerful.

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Originally Posted by Alodar
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I don't really know DnD's rules about that but being able to cast 2 level 1+ spell with metamagic looks really OP.
I can't imagine how powerfull the sorcerer will be at higher level compared to any other caster.

I think it would be better balanced if you could only use 1 spell + 1 cantrip (or eventually level 1 spell) per turn with this metamagic option.

Casting 2 level 1+ spells has always been available to sorcerers via 5e rules.
A sorcerer can twin spells enabling them to cast 2 Chromatic orbs, cast Haste on two fighters, cast two disintegrates, etc. all in the same round.
A multi-class fighter sorcerer could action surge and cast 4 leveled spells in the same round all according to D&D 5e rules.

Currently in BG3 any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells in the same round by consuming a Potion of Speed.
Also any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells if one has a casting time of a bonus action and the other has a casting time of an action.

Wrong. In Players handbook, page 202, passage Casting time - Bonus Action, quote: "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action" end of quote.

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Ah, ok - if sorcerer metamagic quicken is only for cantrips then that is not a problem. So yes, the Larian homebrew is completely overpowered and should be reverted - making the sorcery cost higher is not enough.

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Originally Posted by Volsalex
The problem with the tabletop spell + cantrip rule is that it combined with random initiative order severely prohibits spell combinations. Full spells + cantrips have too little combinations to even work with. As for levelled spells, even if you have 2 party members with synergistic spells like Web and Fireball, they can be easily thrown around the order by the initiative roll the way that by the time the Fireball wielder gets his turn, target(s) might get their turn earlier and just break and run out of the Web wasting a spell combo just because of bad RNG. Moreover, Web wielder could just get his turn after the Fireball wielder to make things even worse.
The correct answer to this could be allowing PC's to delay their turn to go in the same initiative pocket with another PC.

I think being able to cast two spells per turn is a balance problem. Misty Step + Thunderwave before the target gets any chance to react is already too much. Enemies need to be able to do the same and then it just gets ridiculous.

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Originally Posted by Volsalex
You all shouldn't forget that even before Sorcerer was implemented people could easily cast 2 full spells in one turn with Haste potions / spores, so all things like 'I can cast Scorching Rays twice in a row and take out half of boss HP before his turn" were in the game before.

I think that there could be an easy solution to all this Sorcerer vs other classes efficiency dispute that also fits the already existing spells and items in the game.
Make a rule that forbids to cast more than two spells or perform more than two attack actions in a single turn. This rule alone would solve lots of issues with class balance:
- Wizards could just use Haste spell on themselves to cast 2 spells in one round, but need to spend a 3rd level spell slot and maintain Concentration to do so.
- Sorcerers can either use Quicken Spell (so that they can spend Concentation on something else, for example Web) or use the Haste spell, but can't combine them for more casts because of the "2 spells / round" limit.
- Fighters and multiclassed Fighters can use Action Surge or Haste potion / buff for second cast / attack action, but not both for 3+ actions.
- All other classes can just use a Haste potion or be a target of Haste spells to cast 2 spells / perform 2 attack actions per round.

This way:
- All classes have limited access to 2 actions / spells per round via either consumables, concentration spells or depletable resource / ability.
- Players of any class can still perform spell combinations without the tabletop restrictions.
- Sorcerers don't outperform Wizards as both classes have a way to cast 2 spells per turn, but can't cast 3 or more.
- Several OP multiclass combos like X Sorcerer / 2 Fighter which could potentially cast 3-4 spells in one turn are automatically restricted to 2 spells / turn just as all other classes are.

In D&D 5e Action Surge and Haste has different effect. Haste - "Choose a willing creature that you can see within range. Until the spell ends, the target's speed is doubled, it gains a +2 bonus to AC, it has advantage on Dexterity Saving Throws, and it gains an additional action on each of its turns. That action can be used only to take the Attack (one weapon Attack only), Dash, Disengage, Hide, or Use an Object action."
Example: Fighter level 11. With Action Surge: 3 attacks, use Action Surge, 3 more attacks. Its total of 6 attacks. With Haste but without Action Surge: 3 attacks and 1 attack form Haste action. Its total of 4 attacks.
So spell caster that multiclassed in Fighter and with Action Surge can have one more cantrip because of rule In Players handbook, page 202, passage Casting time - Bonus Action (because turn its not over and you already casted spell level 1 or higher), but with Haste no. With Haste action, He can hit enemy with staff or poke him with wand.

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Originally Posted by DebuYarou
So spell caster that multiclassed in Fighter and with Action Surge can have one more cantrip because of rule In Players handbook, page 202, passage Casting time - Bonus Action (because turn its not over and you already casted spell level 1 or higher), but with Haste no. With Haste action, He can hit enemy with staff or poke him with wand.

To be clear:

"Meteor Swarm-> (timely Counterspell)-> Action Surge-> Disintegrate" Is perfectly legitimate in the official PHB rules. "Shield of Faith -> (throw away dodge action)-> Action Surge -> Magic Missile" is NOT allowed or legitimate, officially. Just to emphasise how stupid the official rule is.

The bonus action rule is, as one might understand from the heading, related only to bonus actions. You only get curtailed on your casting options if you cast a bonus action spell.

Originally Posted by 1varangian
The correct answer to this could be allowing PC's to delay their turn to go in the same initiative pocket with another PC.

I think being able to cast two spells per turn is a balance problem. Misty Step + Thunderwave before the target gets any chance to react is already too much. Enemies need to be able to do the same and then it just gets ridiculous.

There are major issues with delaying your turn, and very good reasons why that's not a thing you can do in 5e. Instead, as a means of allowing people to combo or delay for particular triggers and moments, without running into those breaks and problems, 5e has the Ready action.... BG3 does not have the Ready action, however, and that's a problem that should be fixed, but the implementation of the actual mechanics, not by the addition of more homebrew.

Misty Step + Thuderwave is not in any way a problem for balance. Someone under the effects of Fly, or anyone with a natural flying speed, can do the same, and then some, and there are many other ways besides to arrange the same or similar effects.

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Originally Posted by DebuYarou
Originally Posted by Alodar
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I don't really know DnD's rules about that but being able to cast 2 level 1+ spell with metamagic looks really OP.
I can't imagine how powerfull the sorcerer will be at higher level compared to any other caster.

I think it would be better balanced if you could only use 1 spell + 1 cantrip (or eventually level 1 spell) per turn with this metamagic option.

Casting 2 level 1+ spells has always been available to sorcerers via 5e rules.
A sorcerer can twin spells enabling them to cast 2 Chromatic orbs, cast Haste on two fighters, cast two disintegrates, etc. all in the same round.
A multi-class fighter sorcerer could action surge and cast 4 leveled spells in the same round all according to D&D 5e rules.

Currently in BG3 any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells in the same round by consuming a Potion of Speed.
Also any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells if one has a casting time of a bonus action and the other has a casting time of an action.

Wrong. In Players handbook, page 202, passage Casting time - Bonus Action, quote: "A spell cast with a bonus action is especially swift. You must use a bonus action on your turn to cast the spell, provided that you haven't already taken a bonus action this turn. You can't cast another spell during the same turn, except for a cantrip with a casting time of 1 action" end of quote.

That rule applies to casting a spell on a bonus action and then casting with your action.
It has no bearing on twinning a level 1+ spell spell with your action and then action surging and twinning another level 1+ spell


Per the Sage Advice Compendium:

Quote
If you cast a spell, such as healing word, with a bonus action, you can cast another spell with your action, but that other spell must be a cantrip. Keep in mind that this particular limit is specific to spells that use a bonus action. For instance, if you cast a second spell using Action Surge, you aren’t limited to casting a cantrip with it.


Any fighter mage could cast a fireball, action surge and cast another fireball.
A multi-class fighter sorcerer could use twin spell and action surge to cast 4 level 1+ spells in the same round , for example 4 Disintegrates, all according to D&D 5e rules.

Currently in BG3 any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells in the same round by consuming a Potion of Speed.(or standing in a cloud of Haste Spores)
Also,currently in BG3, any caster can cast 2 level 1+ spells if one has a casting time of a bonus action and the other has a casting time of an action. (Have your Wizard cast Misty Step and Magic Missile on the same turn if you wish to verify)

Last edited by Alodar; 17/10/21 12:25 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I don't really know DnD's rules about that but being able to cast 2 level 1+ spell with metamagic looks really OP.
I can't imagine how powerfull the sorcerer will be at higher level compared to any other caster.

I think it would be better balanced if you could only use 1 spell + 1 cantrip (or eventually level 1 spell) per turn with this metamagic option.

I played real DND last night. Our Fighter is an Eldritch knight meaning he can cast Wizard spells (kinda like the Arcane Trickster in Bg3). He cast the fireball spell, action surge, and cast the fireball spell again. He killed over 60 enemies (it was a very large siege fight). As a fighter, he can only ever do this once. At around 8th or 9th level a sorcerer (without the BA limitation) can cast 4 fireballs in two turns, OR cast 2 upcasted fireballs in a single turn. It gets insane very quickly. How about multiple upcasted Magic missiles? You could put 12-20 darts in one target. Assuming they deal 3 damage each that’s 36-60 damage each turn.

I think they should nerf every class to not allow a BA spell and an action spell. The enemies can do what you do as well. Imagine trying to kill a boss that has or is a cleric. BA healing word cast at 2nd level, and cure wounds at 2nd level. It’s broken IMO.

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At the end of the game cantrips are not so useful anymore (Level 10 +). If quicken spell only allows you to cast one addinoal cantrip to make f. e. 5 HP damage for a 400 HP foe this feat is not so useful compared to what fighters can do in this game.

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This is why i do not like the modern rule sets like D&D 5e as well as Pathfinder. Wizards became very weak cause you can multiclass your fighter to a fighter/wizard/thief/XXXX this is so freaking OP. And the fact that feats like qicken spell only allowas you to cast one add. fucking cantrip is ridiculous.

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