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So I am new to D&D lore and honestly I think one of the earliest scenes of the game really assumes way too much of my knowledge of the D&D gods.

When a certain character's religious beliefs are exposed our character seems to have either the "I don't care" response or the interesting "you lied to me!" and even more interesting response "Leave! I wont associate with Sharrans"

But the game doesn't explain what the big frigging deal is! How did this character lie? At no point did they say they worshiped another god or anyone explain to me what the big deal is. Why should I care? What's the down side? I mean compared to a Gith who will murder me if I sneeze funny or literal vampire. Who cares?

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You find books about Shar and Selune throughout the game, but they are easy to miss, I guess. I never thought, how it would be for new players, but since you mentioned it and Shar is heavily featured in the game, they maybe should invest in a scene explaining her a bit more for new players.
It's not like Abdirak and his goddess Loviatar - I'm pretty sure you can go through the game without indepth knowledge of Loviatar, but it's different with Shar - and probably Selune, who is also heavily featured.
You can ask Shadowheart about Shar worshipping later, but that is after you have to react to her being a cleric of that goddess.

Last edited by fylimar; 23/10/21 04:36 AM.

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It's kind of odd that you don't get any dialogue options to comment when the character rants about how deceitful, worthless, nasty and useless Selune is - when in a world of present and active deities, and true tangible good and evil (celestials and fiends etc.), it's empirically known and established that Selune is an overwhelmingly good deity - greater deity, in fact, known the realms over for being a good deity, a champion of life and knowledge, and proven so.

But we can't say "Hey, um... you're, ah, a bit misinformed there, friend.. you've been a bit lied to, perhaps..." That option is absent, and it's weird.

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Shar is evil.

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Shar is a typical "lawful evil" gawd, she just doesn't pretend to be "lawful good", like all the other gawds.


Larian, please improve QoL / UX.

And give us Halsin as companion, please.
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You are not alone in this. My wife was the same way, and I had to explain. I think they assume you'll read the books, but that's not good for those who aren't familiar with the overall story.

Also, Shadowheart SCREAMS of being a Sharriite from the beginning. Her entire armor set and headband say, "Hey everyone! Look at me, a walking Shar symbol.". The big black orbs are Shar's symbol.

So it's not done well. There needs to be a Religion roll made as soon as you meet her if they're going to continue having her in that armor. Succeed and learn who Shar is. Even if you fail, there should be someone, like Gale, who says something and teaches you about Shar. They could then have Shadowheart lie and say she stole the armor from someone or something.

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At minimum a “library” with lore, descriptions, terms, meaning, etc in the main menu. A good list of all the phb gods, realms locations, etc.

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Originally Posted by Niara
It's kind of odd that you don't get any dialogue options to comment when the character rants about how deceitful, worthless, nasty and useless Selune is - when in a world of present and active deities, and true tangible good and evil (celestials and fiends etc.), it's empirically known and established that Selune is an overwhelmingly good deity - greater deity, in fact, known the realms over for being a good deity, a champion of life and knowledge, and proven so.

But we can't say "Hey, um... you're, ah, a bit misinformed there, friend.. you've been a bit lied to, perhaps..." That option is absent, and it's weird.

I can't quite put my finger on what bothers me about the story/dialogue, but this is part of it. It almost feels like I have all of these options to do these crazy things, but some of the most obvious simple choices are missing, like saying "So you're a follower of shar yea?" after seeing the obvious markings all over SH's armour. Instead it involves a ridiculous amount of skill checks for my character to earn SH's trust enough to state the obvious. Even then, if you didn't know who shar was, you'd just say "oh..ok..and?" and if you do know you'll say "really? that's the big secret?".

As GM4HIM said, there absolutely needs to be a religion check when you first meet her to say "durr, she's a follower of shar".

I don't know, it's weird how BG3 has this weird limited role playing in dialogue thing going contrasted with how many different kinds of actions you can take quest wise.

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It's still rather jarring that Shadowheart is dressed up like a crusader for what was a black bag job to retrieve the artifact.

Sharrans are supposed to be devious, a disguise isn't too unlikely. Or did they leap into action in a "No-one expects the Sharran Inquistion!" manner?

After you've sussed her, she could have a "Now you know my secret, allow me to slip into something more comfortable" moment, and out comes the regalia.

There should be an early encounter, before you can trigger the reveal cutscene, where the goddesses and their conflict can be npc-splained. There's plenty of statues and old relics around for that.

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Originally Posted by Eddiar
But the game doesn't explain what the big frigging deal is!

Here I actually feel the game has given many early opportunities to learn about Shar/Selune. Clues in a puzzle you put together.

It’s actually the big theme in the game: who are these various gods, especially this Absolute?

I don’t know that this constitutes a spoiler anymore but
the grove has an illustrated history of Shar and Selune
and
the owlbear cave has a book dedicated to it
&
the book in the Crypt library….


Originally Posted by Boblawblah
[quote=Niara]It's kind of odd that you don't get any dialogue options to comment…
"So you're a follower of shar yea?" after seeing the obvious markings all over SH's armour. Instead it involves a ridiculous amount of skill checks for my character to earn SH's trust enough to state the obvious. …

As GM4HIM said, there absolutely needs to be a religion check when you first meet her to say "durr, she's a follower of shar".

I agree here. It seems Gale has sorted it out right away. “A woman with Shadows for eyes…” Maybe add a dialogue option where Tav can ask him. Gale will of course decline to out her.


Or every time Shadowheart drops another Shar lore hint in your lap: “maybe you and Shar should get a room.” Shadowheart disapproves

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Eddiar Offline OP
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The problem is when I first really booted up this game here is what happened:


- Discover SH big big secret and my character is outraged.

- Now learn who Shar is through SH and the environment.

- Now see Selune in the final sections of Act 1

- Now see even more Shar in the final section of Act 1

Do you see the problem?
Maybe the big reveal should have been way way later in Act 1 when the game has ample opportunity to show me who Shar is and why SH being a worshiper is such a contentious issue.
I mean now after playing ACT 1 several times I know who and what Shar is but a new player on their first playthrough there was a lot of confusion.
And honestly why should my character care who their companions worship unless the religion in question puts me in danger.

Again compared to a vampire who can kill me or a Githyanki who will kill me if I look at her funny I think a Sharran worshipper is the least of my worries.

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Originally Posted by avahZ Darkwood
At minimum a “library” with lore, descriptions, terms, meaning, etc in the main menu. A good list of all the phb gods, realms locations, etc.

Like PF:WotR does. Owlcat does it as it should be imho.


Larian, please improve QoL / UX.

And give us Halsin as companion, please.
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Honestly, they need to do more dialogue explanations and less book reading in the game. The book reading should be kept mostly to non-essential story elements like the Spider Matriarch backstory. That's fine. But dialogues should explain things to people like who Shar is, who Selune is, who Silvanus is, who the Dead Three are.

But then, this is the third installment of the saga. I think they are assuming that most players have played BG1 and 2. In which case, if you have, you should know who a lot of the gods are. So, in one respect, I have to say that it makes sense that they don't explain everything to every potentially new player to the genre. There is a LOT of lore.

That said, I still think that there should be a lot more explanation on who Shar is right at the beginning because it should be a "Holy crap! You're a servant of an evil goddess," moment when Shadowheart reveals her secret. Therefore, she absolutely should not be in Sharrite armor and clothing at all. She should be hiding her holy symbol, and there should be moments when characters maybe catch a glimpse of her symbol and wonder why she doesn't display it on her chest.

When I was writing my fan fiction, I had Shadowheart first pop up in her armor, but the obvious symbols of Shar were missing. She had hidden them, along with her holy symbol spell focus that she needs to use to cast her spells. Instead, she had a holy symbol of a different goddess, and she lied and told everyone that she was a cleric of that goddess. As time went on, the characters discussed who Shar and Selune are, and Shadowheart began to display more and more signs that she hated Selune and loved Shar. Finally, one of the characters just comes right out and says, "Come on. You're a Sharrite. Why are you still trying to hide it? It's obvious."

Even still, she begins with hiding it and lying about her true patron deity. She doesn't brandish the armor and holy symbol, and everyone is just like, "Lalala. Oh! What?! Are you serious? You're a Sharrite?"

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Maybe its an EA thing. Have her remove the Shar symbols from her armor and have her be much more secretive until we get past the Selunite temple.
There is evidence in the under dark of some clash between the Sharrans and Selunites. Maybe there SH gets a flashback through the tadpole about some horrible sharran rituals.
Just to make it clear that these guys are no bueno even to the most dense players like me.

Her secret is honestly revealed way to quickly... maybe the skill checks should be at a minimum 20 to make only the luckiest rolls get you the answer early and even then they are half answers.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
You are not alone in this. My wife was the same way, and I had to explain. I think they assume you'll read the books, but that's not good for those who aren't familiar with the overall story.

Also, Shadowheart SCREAMS of being a Sharriite from the beginning. Her entire armor set and headband say, "Hey everyone! Look at me, a walking Shar symbol.". The big black orbs are Shar's symbol.

So it's not done well. There needs to be a Religion roll made as soon as you meet her if they're going to continue having her in that armor. Succeed and learn who Shar is. Even if you fail, there should be someone, like Gale, who says something and teaches you about Shar. They could then have Shadowheart lie and say she stole the armor from someone or something.


See I have a divergent opinion on this. We expect too little of modern gamers - where we don't give them the opportunity to research things on their own outside of the game environment.

Also there is a chance we will have an encyclopedia that discusses the Gods and their domains, goals.

But in this case, a simple google search will bring you to the Forgotten realms Wiki which explains about Shar and her history. Its one of the things I love about Larian - they don't do 'path-polishing' - that is they encourage player investment and thought instead of leading everyone by the hand.

Honestly it's a great opportunity to learn things on your own, OR ask your fellow players.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by GM4Him
You are not alone in this. My wife was the same way, and I had to explain. I think they assume you'll read the books, but that's not good for those who aren't familiar with the overall story.

Also, Shadowheart SCREAMS of being a Sharriite from the beginning. Her entire armor set and headband say, "Hey everyone! Look at me, a walking Shar symbol.". The big black orbs are Shar's symbol.

So it's not done well. There needs to be a Religion roll made as soon as you meet her if they're going to continue having her in that armor. Succeed and learn who Shar is. Even if you fail, there should be someone, like Gale, who says something and teaches you about Shar. They could then have Shadowheart lie and say she stole the armor from someone or something.


See I have a divergent opinion on this. We expect too little of modern gamers - where we don't give them the opportunity to research things on their own outside of the game environment.

Also there is a chance we will have an encyclopedia that discusses the Gods and their domains, goals.

But in this case, a simple google search will bring you to the Forgotten realms Wiki which explains about Shar and her history. Its one of the things I love about Larian - they don't do 'path-polishing' - that is they encourage player investment and thought instead of leading everyone by the hand.

Honestly it's a great opportunity to learn things on your own, OR ask your fellow players.

I am speechless at the level of dumb contained in this one post.
Yeah googling in the middle of a story because the storyteller failed to explain themselves is galaxy brain writing level.

Last edited by Eddiar; 22/10/21 02:57 PM.
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Lore books require players to actually read them. They don't do a lot of good if the player just picks them up, and stores them somewhere, or sells them. A Glossary/Encyclopedia will be subject to the same shortcoming. If a player doesn't use it, they're going to be in the same boat the OP is in here. When I'm playing a new IP, I read all provided lore, I even go so far as to seek out any books provided, in game. If there's a glossary/encyclopedia, I'll read it, but, and there's always a but, I have to do it. Even something like providing hyperlinks in dialog is useless, if the player doesn't click it. At some point, the player is going to be expected to do some footwork, if they want to be informed.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Lore books require players to actually read them. They don't do a lot of good if the player just picks them up, and stores them somewhere, or sells them. A Glossary/Encyclopedia will be subject to the same shortcoming. If a player doesn't use it, they're going to be in the same boat the OP is in here. When I'm playing a new IP, I read all provided lore, I even go so far as to seek out any books provided, in game. If there's a glossary/encyclopedia, I'll read it, but, and there's always a but, I have to do it. Even something like providing hyperlinks in dialog is useless, if the player doesn't click it. At some point, the player is going to be expected to do some footwork, if they want to be informed.

If thats true then my character should have the dialogue option "Who the f is shar?" and followed by "Oh I don't care."
The game assumes I know who Shar is. Thats the problem.

If its optional for me to learn about Shar before the reveal then the game should reflect that.

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Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Lore books require players to actually read them. They don't do a lot of good if the player just picks them up, and stores them somewhere, or sells them. A Glossary/Encyclopedia will be subject to the same shortcoming. If a player doesn't use it, they're going to be in the same boat the OP is in here. When I'm playing a new IP, I read all provided lore, I even go so far as to seek out any books provided, in game. If there's a glossary/encyclopedia, I'll read it, but, and there's always a but, I have to do it. Even something like providing hyperlinks in dialog is useless, if the player doesn't click it. At some point, the player is going to be expected to do some footwork, if they want to be informed.

If thats true then my character should have the dialogue option "Who the f is shar?" and followed by "Oh I don't care."
The game assumes I know who Shar is. Thats the problem.

If its optional for me to learn about Shar before the reveal then the game should reflect that.

Your character was born in the FRs. They have knowledge that you don't. This isn't a design flaw. It works that way in every game out there. Exploration and books don't exist to inform the character, they exist to inform the player. The impetus is on the player that wants to be informed to search up that knowledge. It's not like this information isn't provided in game, it's that you didn't find it because of how you chose to play. That's fine and all, that's the magic of non linear story telling, or limited linear, as the case may be. However, because you missed something, or didn't actually read something you found, doesn't mean there's a problem with the game. If that were the case, every game ever made would be "broken". As I said, your characters always have the more "common knowledge" things that you, as a player, don't.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Lore books require players to actually read them. They don't do a lot of good if the player just picks them up, and stores them somewhere, or sells them. A Glossary/Encyclopedia will be subject to the same shortcoming. If a player doesn't use it, they're going to be in the same boat the OP is in here. When I'm playing a new IP, I read all provided lore, I even go so far as to seek out any books provided, in game. If there's a glossary/encyclopedia, I'll read it, but, and there's always a but, I have to do it. Even something like providing hyperlinks in dialog is useless, if the player doesn't click it. At some point, the player is going to be expected to do some footwork, if they want to be informed.

If thats true then my character should have the dialogue option "Who the f is shar?" and followed by "Oh I don't care."
The game assumes I know who Shar is. Thats the problem.

If its optional for me to learn about Shar before the reveal then the game should reflect that.

Your character was born in the FRs. They have knowledge that you don't. This isn't a design flaw. It works that way in every game out there. Exploration and books don't exist to inform the character, they exist to inform the player. The impetus is on the player that wants to be informed to search up that knowledge. It's not like this information isn't provided in game, it's that you didn't find it because of how you chose to play. That's fine and all, that's the magic of non linear story telling, or limited linear, as the case may be. However, because you missed something, or didn't actually read something you found, doesn't mean there's a problem with the game. If that were the case, every game ever made would be "broken". As I said, your characters always have the more "common knowledge" things that you, as a player, don't.

Lol then have the narrator explain. She does exposition all the time.

"You remember Shar as an evil goddess with her cultist being horrible A holes across faerun."

It absolutely is a design flaw lol. Stop simping for Larian

Last edited by Eddiar; 22/10/21 03:18 PM.
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