Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General New players and the problem with Shar

You didn't field that. "Not many" is not an amount; it's a guess.

Depending on how many editions back you go, there's an enormous amount. It would take me weeks to go through all of my modules and old books.

We're dealing with a specific setting here, however, instead of Dungeons & Dragons in general.

IMO, in The Forgotten Realms, wearing a prominently displayed round piece of onyx should arouse a degree of suspicion. Best case scenario, you've got a symbol akin to a manji: not quite a swastika, but close enough to catch unwanted attention.

I've been following Forgotten Realms for over 30 years.

It's not a guess, JandK, it's a well informed generality. If you'd like to show us all of the counter-examples you have available to you, I'd be happy to rescind, but the reality is you will not find many. However, given the established lore for the realms, and other sources offered here, the onus is well and truly on you, in this case, to show that the use of onxy in jewellery for everyday people was commonplace and not suspicious, contra to the indications in those lore sources.

The onus is not on me to prove that onyx jewelry should be seen and recognized by everyone as a symbol of Shar.

I love that the argument is "it's just a circle..no connection at all to Sharr"...except she's a CLERIC OF SHARR. but sure, keep gaslighting everyone that said "uh, so, isn't the whole sharr thing a bit obvious?" by pretending it's a 20/20 hindsight issue.

You did say "DnD modules". I assumed you meant modules for generic D&D as well as every official campaign setting.

Here's another point, just to shore up a frequent apologetic, that the game is in EA and perhaps Larian is still building up to all this. If I'm an editor and someone hands me their rough draft asking for ideas, I'd think about it one way. If they hand me a manuscript and say "I think this is ready for publication how about you?" I'd read it differently.

We're already into this EA by like a year, and the groundwork for the Pantheon hasn't really been set up. Even though our default class during character creation is "Cleric" not much has been done to support the class or the concept of clericalism or divinity in FR. That other thread where people where mentioning how Clerics don't feel differentiated enough from each other makes one sort of point, but this is even more general. Basically that they are trying to pull of the Forgotten Realms sans deities, or where the actual deities from the lore are being usurped almost entirely by their new invented one. The mind flayer god, or the Absolute, or whatever it is hehe

I think they need to do a bit more in the set up. If it's not going to happen during char creation or immediately after, not dealt with in the opening cinematics, or during the Nautiloid escape. Then it needs to happen almost as soon as we hit the beach. During our First dream. First visit to a priest/healer. Whatever. Just something. Give that one to your cinematics team as the tall order of the year. Explain the cosmogony of the Forgotten Realms! You got like 3-5 minutes to pull it off! Go!

It absolutely is hindsight. In that no one who saw someone wearing that circlet would jump to the conclusion that she was a priestess of Shar.

Except people who already knew. And then they'd be like, aha, I knew it all along because of that circlet. Soooo obvious.

oct 2021, strawmanning, gaslighting? no. i'm done with you. You're not here to argue in good faith, that much is obvious.

Also from the same page referencing non evil uses:
" This semi-precious stone was carved for jewelry and decorative housewares and was hard enough to wear well. It was often used for sculpting figurines (including the magic onyx dog)."
"There were "nine secrets" that could be enchanted to become an ioun stone and onyx was one of them. Physical contact with onyx helped reduce complications and pain during childbirth."
"Onyx was a common stone among the drow, a gem worn by drow of average station, albeit they used only black ones."

There are positive and negative things associated with it, much like symbols and gemstones in the real world. In both the real world and in the FR there will be people who turn into raving lunatics at the sight of something they find offensive or bad, but many more will just ignore something like this because they don't know for sure why the person is wearing it.

Shadowheart's attire choices should perhaps be modified a bit so she has less of the "suspicious looking black circle thingys" but I still believe that most people would just ignore her or steer clear if they expected her to be bad rather than confront her over her choices. For our characters there should be some sort of unbiased information given about Shar when we first meet Shadowheart and more if we pass a religion check, this would help those who are unfamiliar with the lore.

They are eeeeeeeeeevil. Chaotic Evil, to be precise.

Still waiting for your proof. Jewellery made of onxy and cut into perfectly circular, flat, black discs and displayed in pride of place (such as the centre of and otherwise unadorned circlet) on the person is, in the context of the forgotten realms, a clearly symbolic choice. This is supported by the various lore that has been cited by a few people here.

It's been mentioned that onxy is generally thought of as a dark stone, or one of ill fortune by suspicious folks, and that jewellery that features it is similarly mistrusted. It's a stone that is known to be favoured by several dark gods, and their worshippers. As such, the prominent display of it in jewellery was very likely to draw attention and call suspicion onto you.

If you're disputing that lore, as cited and references already, then you're going to have to provide some evidence or proof if you want to be taken seriously.

You attempted to dispute that by implying that there was a lot of onxy jewellery lying around as standard in modules all over the place: this is not true. If you want to maintain that it is, you'll need to provide some evidence or proof if you want to be taken seriously. The evidence and lore contra to your claim has already been provided - it's your turn.

Not denying that most Drow are evil but the act of wearing the stone seems more to me that they just like the way it looks

I'm not here to argue at all, but I assure you that I disagree with you in good faith.

As for October, I've been reading these forums on a nearly daily basis since about Patch 3, but I only joined in October because I was confused about Patch 6 not updating on Stadia, and I wanted to ask if there was an ETA.

I don't know why it's so odd that someone might disagree with you on this subject? I feel like my point of view is pretty basic, normal.

As Zarna says:


...for some reason, it seems like there are people who don't want to acknowledge the positive things associated with onyx.

Shrug. I don't know. Just my opinion.

Given the date on the source reference, the comment is more likely relating to the supposition (admittedly not a fair one these days), that they are lolth worshippers - within Drow society at least, Lolth worship is fairly absolute, and onxy is a stone that Lolth identifies with as well - you won't find many non-lolth worshipping drow openly wearing onxy, generally speaking.

Same deal with spiders, come to think of it: association. In and of themselves, spiders - like onyx - aren't technically evil, but between the two there's such a common association with manifest evil that you can expect most folks to at least keep others indulging in related imagery at arm's length. Overall, there's more bad than good when it comes to onyx (especially in certain contexts).

How many breads have you eaten in your life?

Regardless of that answer, the problems are...
Onyx that isn't enchanted but is fashioned into jewelry wouldn't be worn for long because the jewelry would cause their wearers bad luck.
It's not likely that many pieces of onyx are enchanted.
That leaves:
Those who wear onyx because of their deity.
Those who wear it because it's enchanted.

Now, if I'm correct, Shadowheart is wearing onyx that isn't enchanted, and she's a cleric.
So, the most likely conclusion is that she's wearing onyx because of a deity.

The idea that onyx is not presented as jewelry all throughout the history of DnD (and specifically within Forgotten Realms) is patently silly.

Associating it with evil and assuming everyone in the setting associates it with evil (despite the mention above about how it reduces the complications and pains of childbirth) is ... well, I'm happy for people to think what they will about that.

We could talk about treasure tables in Myth Drannor if we want and find onyx jewelry there. We could point to the Onyx of the Richest Wort, which was an enchanted necklace that boosted luck. But really, at this point, it feels ridiculous. Arguing that onyx isn't used commonly as jewelry is like arguing that feet don't walk. I might as well be banging my head against the wall.

So, again. Thank you for your interpretation. You think I'm wrong. I think you're wrong. I think that about says it all.