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Isn't this fixating a bit on the wrong issues though? It's not a matter of whether something should be familiar or not according to the general Lore, but as Niara and others stated an issue of the Player not knowing what their Character (and pretty much everyone else in the setting) is meant to know. It's a conveyance problem, not just for the Shar stuff, but for the whole religious lore backdrop and the Pantheon writ large.

It's the DMs job to deliver the lore in a way that the player can comprehend, for the player's benefit not the characters. If the DM is talking about minerals and symbols and the player is staring at them with a blank expression, the DM might set them aside and say "hey, in this playgroup you're expected to know a couple things about the game setting before you show up!" But it's a little different if you know for sure that your player is a first time player without a clue. In that case you'd probably preamble it and do some story-time off the cuff to bring the player up to speed. That should be Larian's starting point, with no assumption there, and some definite effort put into introductions.

Sure we could throw a lore book in the new player's face, but that's not terribly endearing or exciting. I think the point is that Onyx might be Shar's without dispute, and the onyx stone in the lockbox even says that pretty clearly, even before we could free Shadowheart from the pod, but a new person who is not in the know wouldn't know what to make of that. Or at least I thought that is what the OP was trying to communicate right? That more general frustration that the game isn't setting up the setting, but just expecting us to already be familiar with it. That's fine for half of us, but not for the other half.

Someone came in here raising a pretty legitimate issue with the presentation and exposition and how the game assumes too much prior knowledge on this core part of the lore, and within a page of comments, was then basically run out of their own thread for not having enough prior knowledge about the lore here too lol.

The game can do better, and it really should. Even BG1/2 didn't do a great job of this stuff, so it's not like we can look there for the best in show. D&D has a problem with this stuff in general, which is the thing that prevents it from gaining more mass appeal I think. I'm not sure really, but I think part of the experience when it was introduced has made them a little wary of trying to provide a D&D catechism. But that's nevertheless a big part of what makes Faerun, and the Forgotten Realms did pretty it up pretty explicitly. Sure it was guarded, and a bit in response to what happened on the first outing, but it was also well received by players who like Legends and Lore and Mythology type stuff. It was a strong hook for the setting I think. One that they're kind of letting go here, by allowing the Absolute to upstage everyone else in the Pantheon, and not doing any preamble really. I can imagine ways that they might introduce this stuff, or perhaps are planning to eventually, but it's not in there yet. Hence the critique

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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Someone came in here raising a pretty legitimate issue with the presentation and exposition and how the game assumes too much prior knowledge on this core part of the lore...

I absolutely agree with the original post. It's a real issue. Knowledge of Shar should not be taken for granted; it should be introduced in the game.

Lore books and narration are fine for what they are, and I like them.

But figuring out a way to show how evil and dangerous Shar worshipers are would be much better. It would be nice to see a scene showing the Dark Justiciars, if at all possible. We see the remnants of what they left behind in the Blighted Village, and I suppose that's something.

Still. Now that I'm thinking more about this... maybe we shouldn't see them as wholly evil. Bear with me. When we ask Shadowheart about Shar, she gives an answer that puts Shar in a more favorable light. Who's to say that we shouldn't take Shadowheart's view? Why should we jump on the cliched interpretations of Shar that we have as players, as opposed to building a view of Shar from what we find in the game? And in the game, while there are hints of evil, there are also touches of nuance and degrees to consider.

I don't like Tav's potential responses to Shadowheart's revelation, but really, when I think about it, that's probably my biggest problem. Touch up those responses somewhat, and maybe just let the development of Shar play out through the story, either in a sympathetic manner or not.

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Please, no "They're not evil; they're just misunderstood." Talk about clichés! Getting into bed with Shar is leagues beyond merely favoring dark clothing and a commensurately dark attitude; you've consciously established an allegiance with a malevolent cosmic force.

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Yeah I mean, sort of fell into the pitrap I guess once the door is opened.

But since its a new page, I think the game needs to give some kind of impressionistic overview of the deities and how this form of magic is different from the arcane sort suggested by the bookish books hehe. It needs a little cinema to it, if the game is going to dedicate so much else to that. I don't know what it should really look like, the only thing that makes sense to me right now is a preamble that keys off the inputs in char creation. In the prologue we hear mention of Vlaakith and Shar, and there are bits of info presented during the loadscreens, but that doesn't quite carry into a sense that as a PC the gods should really matter, anymore than they care about what people believe on that score in more mundane settings outside the high fantasy.

This was one of the first D&D tomes I ever picked up. It has some of the best art in it... That one along with the manual of the planes were my favs.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

They basically need the FR cinemascope version of that lol.

Like where the PC gets that sort of impression (the two dudes duking it out, as apotheoses) during the point in Character creation that deals with this stuff. I think it should have it's own treatment. Doesn't need to be delivered all at once, but it should start early. I know they spent all the money doing the Dragons and Nautiloid trashing the city hehe, but it would be cool if they could have done a Cosmogony story using a similar sort of sweep, which would fire up when the character selects their deity. Not just some tab in a game menu, but like something that plays it up a bit. And not for every last entry in the Pantheon but at least for the biggies and the ones supported by the game. The ones we're going to for sure butt up against while playing. With a primer, the player can read into the prologue even more, since they'll have more insight before they hit the ground running.

I think in practical terms, they could still try to do it using more of the in game cinematic tools. Like give the Deities some avatar models, and for the clerics they could be used to convey something more personalized. That way when the new player shows up, assumes they should probably be a cleric, (since they're new and that's the first option they see) the game should really use that opportunity.

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Let's not get this twisted, Larian can decide if Shar's iconography is well known or not in their game. FR isn't a real place, every 'fact' about it is subject to change, if the writer finds it inconvenient. So the onus is on Larian to tell us whether Shar commandos go around wearing such, or if Onyx is somehow treyf

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Maybe a Lord of the Rings style opening cinematic that details the spellplague etc. I wouldn't mind that...but I also wouldn't mind a prologue for every character.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Let's not get this twisted, Larian can decide if Shar's iconography is well known or not in their game. FR isn't a real place, every 'fact' about it is subject to change, if the writer finds it inconvenient. So the onus is on Larian to tell us whether Shar commandos go around wearing such, or if Onyx is somehow treyf

"twisted?" "treyf"? In any case, the more they deviate from established setting details, the less it feels like The Forgotten Realms; this may be "their game" but it sure as hell isn't their setting.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Let's not get this twisted, Larian can decide if Shar's iconography is well known or not in their game. FR isn't a real place, every 'fact' about it is subject to change, if the writer finds it inconvenient. So the onus is on Larian to tell us whether Shar commandos go around wearing such, or if Onyx is somehow treyf

They could do that, but consistency is important in stories, fictional or not, and changing things greatly or often is likely to confuse fans and even those who are new to a series.
Retcons, reboots, etc. are tools that should be used very sparingly, and I don't think that it's a wise use of those tools to potentially erase or change huge portions of Shar's history in the setting with no in-universe justification just so that Shar's followers can go around with their signature appearance without being criticized or attacked.

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Originally Posted by fylimar
You find books about Shar and Selune throughout the game, but they are easy to miss, I guess. I never thought, how it would be for new players, but since you mentioned it and Shar is heavily featured in the game, they maybe should invest in a scene explaining her a bit more for new players.
It's not like Abdirak and his goddess Loviatar - I'm pretty sure you can go through the game without indepth knowledge of Loviatar, but it's different with Shar - and probably Selune, who is also heavily featured.
You can ask Shadowheart about Shar worshipping later, but that is after you have to react to her being a cleric of that goddess.

The point is PLAYER KNOWLEDGE VS. CHARACTER KNOWLEDGE.


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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Isn't this fixating a bit on the wrong issues though? It's not a matter of whether something should be familiar or not according to the general Lore, but as Niara and others stated an issue of the Player not knowing what their Character (and pretty much everyone else in the setting) is meant to know. It's a conveyance problem, not just for the Shar stuff, but for the whole religious lore backdrop and the Pantheon writ large.

It's the DMs job to deliver the lore in a way that the player can comprehend, for the player's benefit not the characters. If the DM is talking about minerals and symbols and the player is staring at them with a blank expression, the DM might set them aside and say "hey, in this playgroup you're expected to know a couple things about the game setting before you show up!" But it's a little different if you know for sure that your player is a first time player without a clue. In that case you'd probably preamble it and do some story-time off the cuff to bring the player up to speed. That should be Larian's starting point, with no assumption there, and some definite effort put into introductions.

Sure we could throw a lore book in the new player's face, but that's not terribly endearing or exciting. I think the point is that Onyx might be Shar's without dispute, and the onyx stone in the lockbox even says that pretty clearly, even before we could free Shadowheart from the pod, but a new person who is not in the know wouldn't know what to make of that. Or at least I thought that is what the OP was trying to communicate right? That more general frustration that the game isn't setting up the setting, but just expecting us to already be familiar with it. That's fine for half of us, but not for the other half.

Someone came in here raising a pretty legitimate issue with the presentation and exposition and how the game assumes too much prior knowledge on this core part of the lore, and within a page of comments, was then basically run out of their own thread for not having enough prior knowledge about the lore here too lol.

The game can do better, and it really should. Even BG1/2 didn't do a great job of this stuff, so it's not like we can look there for the best in show. D&D has a problem with this stuff in general, which is the thing that prevents it from gaining more mass appeal I think. I'm not sure really, but I think part of the experience when it was introduced has made them a little wary of trying to provide a D&D catechism. But that's nevertheless a big part of what makes Faerun, and the Forgotten Realms did pretty it up pretty explicitly. Sure it was guarded, and a bit in response to what happened on the first outing, but it was also well received by players who like Legends and Lore and Mythology type stuff. It was a strong hook for the setting I think. One that they're kind of letting go here, by allowing the Absolute to upstage everyone else in the Pantheon, and not doing any preamble really. I can imagine ways that they might introduce this stuff, or perhaps are planning to eventually, but it's not in there yet. Hence the critique

Do they need to do an intro movie before the prologue? Because we're talking about nearly 50 years of backstory. How much of it do they need to cover, because I could see that intro movie going into hundreds of hours trying to cover all the canon possibilities over that time frame.

The other side of this is, of course, the fact that this scenario will come up in every original IP anyone plays. Someone jumping into Dragon Age with Inquisition will be every bit as confused about story beats that involve the Warden, or Hawke. What about Kieran? Does he even exist? Who is he? How did he come to be? All stuff that anyone that played Origins and DA 2 would know, but a new player won't. What about Mass Effect, what story beats are going to be confusing to someone that starts the trilogy at 3? At some point, a player that wants background information, such as who Shar is, might rightfully be expected to do some footwork. Even in a TT setting, players would have access to the books.

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It's been quite a few pages now but I too must admit to conflating Shadowheart's promo/concept art that you see on the loading screens (where the the symbol of Shar is is clearly depicted on her pauldron (and also on the mask at her hip, though that one isn't ingame at all of course so that one is irrelevant)) with her actual ingame armour: the pauldron stones look much less like Shar symbols when they aren't in 2D (if you google Shadowheart screenshost to compare you'll likely only find older pictures where the pauldron stones haven't been coloured yet by the way, in case anyone thought to do that -- they're currently black and onyxy ingame).

Originally Posted by JandK
[quote=Black_Elk]Still. Now that I'm thinking more about this... maybe we shouldn't see them as wholly evil. Bear with me. When we ask Shadowheart about Shar, she gives an answer that puts Shar in a more favorable light. Who's to say that we shouldn't take Shadowheart's view? Why should we jump on the cliched interpretations of Shar that we have as players, as opposed to building a view of Shar from what we find in the game? And in the game, while there are hints of evil, there are also touches of nuance and degrees to consider.

If you ask somebody who's in a cult about the cult you're going to get it described to you in a much more favourable light compared to if you asked somebody who sees the cult for what it is.

Shar is the Lady of Loss, patron of people who seek forgetfulness and obliviousness. Part of her thing is seeking out people who are broken or wishing to lose themselves, and seducing them with promises of belonging, purpose, and love. The most enticing kind of evil is the kind that tempts you with unconditional love. You become a microscopic cog in her catastrophic plan, designed and directed by her red right hand black onyx stone headpiece :P


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Originally Posted by Dexai
If you ask somebody who's in a cult about the cult you're going to get it described to you in a much more favourable light compared to if you asked somebody who sees the cult for what it is.

Shar is the Lady of Loss, patron of people who seek forgetfulness and obliviousness. Part of her thing is seeking out people who are broken or wishing to lose themselves, and seducing them with promises of belonging, purpose, and love. The most enticing kind of evil is the kind that tempts you with unconditional love. You become a microscopic cog in her catastrophic plan, designed and directed by her red right hand black onyx stone headpiece :P

Yeah, yeah, the Shar worshiper would say *you're* the one in the cult, lol.

Seriously though, I hear what you're saying, and a part of me agrees.

But it's also what I meant by cliched, as in it's sort of the obvious way to think about things, especially for those of us who already know a lot of Forgotten Realms lore. And maybe it's a good way to think for characters who have a high enough skill in Religion.

Yet there are people who don't have that knowledge, both players in real life and characters who don't have the appropriate skill level. One thing we keep saying in this thread is that the knowledge should be pounded in early, that those without the lore should have it spoon-fed to them double quick. Maybe that's the wrong approach. That's all I'm saying.

Maybe instead, these characters should get to know Shar the long way around, by first interacting with a follower and getting a more sympathetic view of her. Only as time passes and more lore is introduced, along with scenarios that begin to feel increasingly evil, does the character start to realize that Shar might be a little bit more dangerous than they initially supposed.

I think there's a benefit and strength to playing the game that way, and if that's what Larian is intending then I say, bravo.

Just my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
It's the DMs job to deliver the lore in a way that the player can comprehend, for the player's benefit not the characters. If the DM is talking about minerals and symbols and the player is staring at them with a blank expression, the DM might set them aside and say "hey, in this playgroup you're expected to know a couple things about the game setting before you show up!" But it's a little different if you know for sure that your player is a first time player without a clue. In that case you'd probably preamble it and do some story-time off the cuff to bring the player up to speed. That should be Larian's starting point, with no assumption there, and some definite effort put into introductions.

Sure we could throw a lore book in the new player's face, but that's not terribly endearing or exciting. I think the point is that Onyx might be Shar's without dispute, and the onyx stone in the lockbox even says that pretty clearly, even before we could free Shadowheart from the pod, but a new person who is not in the know wouldn't know what to make of that. Or at least I thought that is what the OP was trying to communicate right? That more general frustration that the game isn't setting up the setting, but just expecting us to already be familiar with it. That's fine for half of us, but not for the other half.

Yes that is what I am trying to communicate.

Allow me to talk about another character in the game where I had zero knowledge about but was still able to fully appreciate.

Kagha and her shadow druid connections and the finale where I expose her.
I had no prior knowledge of shadow druids but they do sound ominous. And when I found that letter and talked to the rats I realized something is going on. And then the story happened which I wont spoil further but that was totally fine. A lot of the things were self-explanatory that I can understand. And the whole thing happened because I found a chest and read the letter in it.

But Shar is different.
First off there is SH, her mission, the artifact, the selune temple and now Grymforge.
Shar is being shoved in my face by Larian more than the Mindflayers after the intro... and all I have is some books I have to search out?

In the current format of the game I don't know how to addres that.
Maybe my character gets an Religion check when they meet SH on the ship when we see her gear...
Maybe my character has a mind melding with SH as she is stuck in the pod. It could be flashing nonsense... maybe a scene from the promo art with SH surrounded by masked individuals.
Or maybe just have the narrator explain the shar thing when the secret is exposed so we don't "spoil" the reveal on the ship... but make it really cinematic where I see images of human sacrifice, kidnapping and torture chambers as sharrans do sharran things that makes them so hated.

Honestly anything. Anything besides an easter egg hunt of game texts.
Edit: I just read that book in the chapel. If anything it makes me pity the sharrans rather than find them abhorrent. This still doesn't explain why people refuse to associate with Sharrans. They give up their own memories, they don't steal my memories...

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Originally Posted by Eddiar
This still doesn't explain why people refuse to associate with Sharrans.

That pesky "cessation of all existence" thing. Nothing big.

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Eddiar
This still doesn't explain why people refuse to associate with Sharrans.

That pesky "cessation of all existence" thing. Nothing big.

I have been playing this game for over a hundred hours and I don't think this was ever mentioned in conversation or the book in the chapel early on.

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Here's an interesting article where Greenwood lays out some of his general thinking on the subject. It's from the October 1981 issue of Dragon Magazine, so keeping in mind that it's 40 years old, it still has some choice insights from the dude who first invented the Realms. The relevant section starts on page 8

https://annarchive.com/files/Drmg054.pdf

I'd say what we need is a simple primer, at least for the Greater Gods listed, the ones who hold sway particularly in Fearun, if not the whole of Toril. Also the lesser Gods or demigods that have since been promoted to more prominent positions in the lore or who the game intends to focus on. Again that article is pretty old hehe.

Sure a complete and exhaustive treatment would be a bit much to ask for, but I still think they could do something that captures the broad sweep. Just so the new player can get a bit more situated, with a better appreciation of the scope and relevance to the setting. I don't think I can really assume that the average player will have the same interest in comparative mythology or religion that I might, but a good creation story could probably do a lot of the heavy lifting. We probably don't need a whole Theogony where highlights version would probably suffice. More detail can be explored if the PC chooses to play as a Priest, where additional insights can be gleaned along the way. I mean Silvanus gets a brief mention as being "thorny" from Zevlor, and we know the druids care about that one, but I think part of the issue with most of the other gods stems from a general lack of temples and priests among the NPCs in the EA game. We don't start in a town or a city really, so I suppose it makes sense we don't see much, but still seems like they could do a bit more in the initial presentation.

Just as an example, BG1 the treatment was relatively sparse, granted, but it did introduce Bhaal as a central focus with a fair bit of narrative support there. Basically they used the Lord of Murder as an in for the newcomer PC, even if they weren't particularly concerned with the broader divine tapestry, that part of it was unavoidable and it had some set up. In BG2 FR religion was treated a bit more like pop up mega churches with a North American slant (thinking especially of the temple district and the unseeing eye subplot). A lot of the time it felt like more of a send up of the FR religions and more comedic, but it nevertheless carried on with the Bhaalspawn thing as central. In this game, where we still don't quite know what the Absolute is meant to be (perhaps it's an extension of the same?) I think they could still do some setup for the Shar/Selune thing. Especially since FR departs a bit from more familiar treatments in real world mythology. Here it's a more Manichean dualistic take of opposing forces, as opposed to like the triple goddess take with 3 phases of life, waxing and waning, that we get from more familiar source material. Here we have the moon in opposition to itself, as opposed to being in opposition to Sol Invictus, or like a calendar conflict or compromise between the Lunar year and the Solar year. Since it's fairly different in FR, I think that'd be a good place to start.

Shar is presented as a Greater Goddess in that list, with the obvious analogs being Kore/Persephone in her aspect as Praxidike (judge and ruler over the shades) blended with Hecate or something more protean and witchy, malevolent and cruel. Basically Darkness writ large. Selune by contrast is listed as a lesser goddess, with the obvious analog being Selene/Diane or Phoebe/Letona. If Lathandar is Sol Invictus, and Selune is Luna, then Shar is basically Nyx like the black night. More primeval. But the Selune vs Shar conflict has graduated (over various iterations and here too it seems in BG3) into to something a bit more central to the story. So I think they could play that up with some payoff, and maybe just cameo some of the other players? Honestly I don't know what it would look like, but I don't think it needs to be crazy long. Again like anything more than 3-5 minutes and the player is tuning out probably. Unless it's an edge of your seat 'kick this into overdrive' thing like the opening cinematic lol. But I doubt we get another one of those. I'm curious if chapter 2 or 3 might have such a mini featurette to set the stage? But I think they were probably eager to show off their best of the best in the trailer, so I don't know if they are cooking up anything more at the scale, except perhaps for a finale climax maybe?

Anyhow the big list of the FR gods on page 10-11, and the follow up breakdowns on pg 52, all seemed like they could be worth mining a bit more and use some of that to deck things out a bit in BG3. I also found his motivations for doing certain things pretty instructive. Like at least it's probably a good read for the historical curiosity even if nothing else heheh

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Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Eddiar
This still doesn't explain why people refuse to associate with Sharrans.

That pesky "cessation of all existence" thing. Nothing big.

I have been playing this game for over a hundred hours and I don't think this was ever mentioned in conversation or the book in the chapel early on.

Well, I don't know if that is mentioned in-game, but it is her overarching goal. The first hint of this machination lies in how she deals with loss (i.e., by taking away memory); this deal sounds great...until you form an unhealthy dependency on her and then forget altogether how to deal with suffering (suffering is never encouraged or welcomed, but discovering how to face it head-on is a part of a healthy emotional development).

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Here I just copied the descriptions for the op, even though they've been published elsewhere and added to, gives the gist. I can picture how something like this could get a cinematic presentation that conveys a fair bit without taking up too much time.

Quote
SELUNE
Revered by witches (a few may worship her) and by all who navigate or must work at night, Selune is continually either growing to full glory or dying. Selune is linked to Mystra; children born under a full moon often exhibit magical ability. Lycanthropes who enjoy their condition (rare though they may be) usually come to worship Selune, for she governs their powers. Selune has been said to aid devout worshippers of her Mystery of the Night by sending aid to those lost by trails of “moondust” (small motes of light similar to Dancing Lights or tiny will-o’-the-wisps that produce moonlight where none would otherwise be, to give sight to someone engaged in a delicate task,-guide the way through treacherous ground or back to a known trail, and the like). The “nightstalk,” or solitary moonlit walk, is the occasion and ritual of worship to, and Commune with, Selune. Clerics of Selune seek and prize “drops fallen from the moon,” the offerings of the goddess, for with this precious substance they can make many potions and unguents.

SHAR
This goddess is said to be darkly beautiful. She is often worshipped by those made bitter by the loss of a loved one; in her dark embrace all forget, and although they forever feel loss, they become used to such pain until they consider it the usual and natural state of existence. Shar battles continually with Selune, slaying her often (i.e., every new moon), and is worshipped (or paid lip service by) all surface-dwelling beings who dislike light. Those who make or take disguises worship Leira, but those who seek only to hide or bury something pay homage to Shar.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
You become a microscopic cog in her catastrophic plan, designed and directed by her red right hand black onyx stone headpiece :P

Fuck, that hyped me.

Anyway, about Shadowheart's aesthetic, this is a game where white-haired, red-eyed, sharp-toothed vampires and full-blooded drows roam the land willy-nilly.

I mean, come on, one of the goblin leaders is a drow, yet the people at the grove are completely at easy with the idea of a drow MC running around the inner sanctum. I'm pretty sure not any of this is meant to make sense, it's all just meant to look dumbly cool.

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Yeah, the drow thing has come up before. Being a drow in BG:1 was a kill on sight offense, but its little more than a side-eye these days. I just have to stop taking such things for granted.

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