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Originally Posted by Sozz
Evil people would join. Of course without an alignment system, "a goddess who some people think may be evil and who is at war with another goddess" could describe every deity.

I just think there's a lot of rigid thinking going on, where people are so set in their view of Forgotten Realms that they put everything into a box and fail to see things from other angles.

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I think the problem is more, nobody wanted to hammer down these questions before, because it would mean picking the one true way of interpreting it. I don't have a problem not knowing everything about the world I'm playing in, but I need my character's knowledge to be justified in the knowledge of the people around him, or by their own experience. If nobody recognizes Shar's iconography, it's not well known, if it is well known, explain why it isn't recognized. If there was a war to end the universe recently explain that (or retcon that it didn't happen), and explain why it isn't common knowledge.

There's a point when you first meet Zevlor where you hear about Elturel's Descent, you either have no idea what that means or you pass a history check to recognize it. That tells me, that crazy shit can happen and people the next town over still will not have heard of it.

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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
If players can reach (and finish) SH's reveal scene without realizing exactly what type of goddess Shar is, that's a problem.

I don't see why. No one would ever join Shar's cult if everyone had one view of the goddess beaten into their heads.

Seems to me that the game would play out perfectly fine if a player initially thought Shar is "a goddess who some people think may be evil and who is at war with another goddess." Then, as the game continues, more scenes develop and more information is revealed, and eventually, the player learns more and gets a better understanding.

Why does that progression break the game?
I'm sorry, but didn't you accept that Shar is an objectively evil goddess a few posts above? I thought we were past this point.

People don't join Shar's religion thinking "she's just misunderstood, but is actually good". She exploits people at their most vulnerable, stoking their grief and anger and desire for vengeance. Or her worshippers are those that truly belief that all life should be snuffed out. Or are just using the hierarchy of her religion for their own greed/sadism. Shar's goal is the eradication of warmth and life in the universe. And regardless of how people in her faith view her, she is widely known to be an evil goddess, so much so that her worshippers are forced to work in secret. Deities are real in D&D; it's not like it is in our world where people can easily argue about which God is the True God and what are his/her tenets.

Our characters, growing up in the Sword Coast, should know these facts. Now, maybe your Tav agrees with Sharran philosophy. Or maybe not. Either is fine! But the game should make sure to explain the general knowledge about Shar to the player, so that we can make informed choices roleplaying as Tav.

tl;dr: The game should explain the general view society has of Shar & Sharrans to us - the player - because Tav would know this.

Last edited by mrfuji3; 24/10/21 06:32 PM.
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I'm sorry, but didn't you accept that Shar is an objectively evil goddess a few posts above? I thought we were past this point.

Characters in the setting don't have copies of Forgotten Realms novels and Player's Handbooks and Deity Folios to peruse. Do you see the difference? It's one thing to accept that there's an omniscient creator of the setting who can publish canon material... it's another thing to think everyone in the setting shares the knowledge of the omniscient creator.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
People don't join Shar's religion thinking "she's just misunderstood, but is actually good".

This is exactly what I mean by rigid thinking. The fact is, you're just making this up. In all fairness, you're not the authority on who joins Shar and why. But it's like you're so set in your view that you can't imagine anything else.

It's this kind of thinking, which is really two-dimensional, that doesn't allow for different personalities and motivations in NPCs. It demands a black and white interpretation of everything. "All Shar worshipers join because blah." <-- things just don't work that way.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Our characters, growing up in the Sword Coast, should know these facts.

Again, this is nothing more than what *you* think everyone should know. And I'm sure some people absolutely believe Shar is evil. I'm sure some probably think it's more nuanced, and you probably have a group of people who are contrary by nature and think that Shar gets a bad rep because some people are lying haters.

The point is, groups of people don't fit into one tidy box, all sharing the same common opinion.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
But the game should make sure to explain the general knowledge about Shar to the player, so that we can make informed choices roleplaying as Tav.

Knowledge about Shar may be sparse in this area, at least without a sufficient Religion check. It could be that Shar has been operating in the shadows so long that people don't know a lot. Certainly not more than rumor and hearsay.

I guess I just object to the clone-like setting where everyone knows blah and thinks blah.

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Originally Posted by JandK
Knowledge about Shar may be sparse in this area, at least without a sufficient Religion check. It could be that Shar has been operating in the shadows so long that people don't know a lot. Certainly not more than rumor and hearsay.
Sure, I'll agree with you that a religion check would be appropriate. Which is my main point: the player should have some way of being informed about Shar. If Tav should know about Shar, then the player definitely should.

And even if (your) Tav shouldn't know about Shar, the player should still be given information about Shar through journals/pop-up text/dialogue, so they can have the choice of how to roleplay Tav.

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We get a pretty good explanation of why someone might view the tenets of Shar as the Truth, from Shadowheart herself when you ask her about Shar. What would be nice is if other characters had input into Shar and her worshippers, especially in an area that was the site of a battle with her Dark Justiciars.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Sure, I'll agree with you that a religion check would be appropriate. Which is my main point: the player should have some way of being informed about Shar. If Tav should know about Shar, then the player definitely should.

And even if (your) Tav shouldn't know about Shar, the player should still be given information about Shar through journals/pop-up text/dialogue, so they can have the choice of how to roleplay Tav.

I agree with all of this.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
If players can reach (and finish) SH's reveal scene without realizing exactly what type of goddess Shar is, that's a problem.

I don't see why. No one would ever join Shar's cult if everyone had one view of the goddess beaten into their heads.

Seems to me that the game would play out perfectly fine if a player initially thought Shar is "a goddess who some people think may be evil and who is at war with another goddess." Then, as the game continues, more scenes develop and more information is revealed, and eventually, the player learns more and gets a better understanding.

Why does that progression break the game?
I'm sorry, but didn't you accept that Shar is an objectively evil goddess a few posts above? I thought we were past this point.

People don't join Shar's religion thinking "she's just misunderstood, but is actually good". She exploits people at their most vulnerable, stoking their grief and anger and desire for vengeance. Or her worshippers are those that truly belief that all life should be snuffed out. Or are just using the hierarchy of her religion for their own greed/sadism. Shar's goal is the eradication of warmth and life in the universe. And regardless of how people in her faith view her, she is widely known to be an evil goddess, so much so that her worshippers are forced to work in secret. Deities are real in D&D; it's not like it is in our world where people can easily argue about which God is the True God and what are his/her tenets.

Our characters, growing up in the Sword Coast, should know these facts. Now, maybe your Tav agrees with Sharran philosophy. Or maybe not. Either is fine! But the game should make sure to explain the general knowledge about Shar to the player, so that we can make informed choices roleplaying as Tav.

tl;dr: The game should explain the general view society has of Shar & Sharrans to us - the player - because Tav would know this.

Thats not the description that SH gives us though. Maybe Shar is being retconned?

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Larian don't actually have the power to retcon existing lore - Video games are officially considered secondary source, and are not considered canon where they contradict or disagree with published books.

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I never thought I'd see people try to downplay the quietly monstrous nature of Shar.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Larian don't actually have the power to retcon existing lore - Video games are officially considered secondary source, and are not considered canon where they contradict or disagree with published books.
To be fair, that does mean Larian can use a non-canon implementation of Shar.

That said, Larian should make it explicit (again through dialogue, journals, highlight-popups) exactly how their Shar differs from canon.
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Thats not the description that SH gives us though. Maybe Shar is being retconned?
SH is not a trustworthy source. She will not give us the general population's view of Shar and anything she says should be viewed with suspicion. Members of cults probably won't be objective about their cult.

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
I never thought I'd see people try to downplay the quietly monstrous nature of Shar.

Hardly surprising, people love the misunderstood trope these days. Quite scary when it comes to real life, quite questionable when it comes to fictioncal dieties of murder, everlasting darkness and the like.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
You are not alone in this. My wife was the same way, and I had to explain. I think they assume you'll read the books, but that's not good for those who aren't familiar with the overall story.

They assume too much! I really hate it when RPGs cross into text adventure territory and I oftentimes can't be bothered to read stuff that tend to be either fluff and/or boring lore. I kind of half-expect developers to voice-act or otherwise impress upon the player the importance of paying attention. In short; it would be better if the narrator read out at least vital bits.

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Originally Posted by Seraphael
Originally Posted by GM4Him
You are not alone in this. My wife was the same way, and I had to explain. I think they assume you'll read the books, but that's not good for those who aren't familiar with the overall story.

They assume too much! I really hate it when RPGs cross into text adventure territory and I oftentimes can't be bothered to read stuff that tend to be either fluff and/or boring lore. I kind of half-expect developers to voice-act or otherwise impress upon the player the importance of paying attention. In short; it would be better if the narrator read out at least vital bits.

I love good voice acting, but only want to enjoy it once. If it's important, it should be part of the narrative and not hidden in a lore book. If I want to read a book, I've got my bookshelves for that. If I want to play a video game, it's because I'd rather be doing that than reading a book. My first playthrough of anything, I'll watch all the dialog, skim all the lore books. After that, spacebar spacebar spacebar. Open the lore books only as long as needed to let the robots know I've "read" them.

Maybe I'm lazily forgiving, but as someone not versed in Forgotten Realms, when SH made her big reveal, I wasn't bothered that I didn't know why she'd assume I'd be upset. It was just a directional indicator - this is a dynamic I need to a little more attentive too. I was really grateful there was an "I'm not fussed" option, because I wasn't, and operating on the assumption that my character had as little knowledge as I did, that felt right.

Yes, 100%, it would be fantastic to get more of the lore as part of the main story, especially something so important. But I didn't feel I was missing anything without it.

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Video games used to feature quite a bit of text (Baldur's Gate included). Nowadays, people expect their video games to be movies. Bleh.

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Its all very strange. Gale was there when I got her big reveal in the blighted village, and his reaction was very lighthearted. Something like “Shar eh? You naughty little minx. My beloved Mystra doesn’t much care for Shar”.

(ahem…that’s what I heard, anyway)

Then, I went and read all about Shar on my own (as I am new to Forgotten Realms). Was admittedly confused. The tone did not really jive with the lore.

Last edited by timebean; 25/10/21 01:45 AM.
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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
I never thought I'd see people try to downplay the quietly monstrous nature of Shar.

If the game actually made a compelling depiction of Shar being bad than you would have a point but right now it just doesn't seem like that big of a deal
The Absolute seems like a much bigger threat to us than Shar.

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Originally Posted by timebean
Its all very strange. Gale was there when I got her big reveal in the blighted village, and his reaction was very lighthearted. Something like “Shar eh? You naughty little minx. My beloved Mystra doesn’t much care for Shar”.

(ahem…that’s what I heard, anyway)

Then, I went and read all about Shar on my own (as I am new to Forgotten Realms). Was admittedly confused. The tone did not really jive with the lore.

And that, right there, is what I have a problem with. Things like that.

Mustard and Shar are like arch enemies also. Gale should be like, "What? Are you serious? You're a Sharran freaking priestess? Die you deceiving piece of $#@!". And then you would have to talk him down.

The creation of the Shadow Weave made Shar the eternal enemy of the goddess of magic, Mystra. This resulted in the brewing of a terrible war between these two powerful deities. By her very nature, however, Shar was opposed to powers of light, the unsecretive Shaundakul, and her own sister, Selûne. Her only frequent ally was Talona.[6]

Last edited by GM4Him; 25/10/21 03:19 AM.
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Mustard and Shar are like arch enemies...

Shar's admittedly more of a ketchup gal.

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Lol. Mystra! Haha. Auto-correct. 🤣

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