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Boy, am I glad this thread exists! I was just as puzzled by the Shadowheart reveal as the OP, but didn’t even realize how way off I was.

This was my impression after reading every book available in game : there are two goddesses which are sisters and enemies. One is the goddess of light, the other is goddess of darkness. One is called Selune, the other is called Shar.

Perhaps I should’ve been more attentive to the details, in any case this is how my brain filled in the gaps : two warring sisters in a light/darkness pair must be referring to the sun and the moon. Based on real world knowledge, Selune is probably the moon goddess, hence Shar is the goddess of the sun.

So when Shadowheart revealed her big secret, my first reaction was, “you worship the sun? Why should I care?”

Maybe I’m a moron, but warring factions based on two slightly different goddesses of night seems like too subtle a concept to convey through snippets of text alone.

Last edited by Flooter; 25/10/21 08:24 AM. Reason: Godesses is spelled with 2 d’s

Larian, please make accessibility a priority for upcoming patches.
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It's not directly representable in the lore, but I like to think as Shar as the dark side of the moon to selune's shining face of the moon. Can't have one without the other.

Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Dexai
Not just her sibling, it should be noted: She went to war with herself over it wink

Wha question?

They were as one before this break in concord caused them to split.

Lazily copied from the wiki: "The goddesses were beautiful, identical but polar opposites, raven-haired and silver-haired, one representing the dark, the other the light in the manner of yin and yang. Yet they were so close they saw themselves as one being, known later as the Two-Faced Goddess or the Sisters-Who-Were-One. They complemented each other and brought order out of the chaos."

Apologise if it was the original state of my post you were getting at. I cleared up the autocorruptions and added the dropped letters wink

Last edited by Dexai; 25/10/21 11:40 AM.

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Here's the thing about Shar's storyline. With both FR novels and FR TT modules, WotC often had a common phrase they used for the *big* storylines: an RSE (Realms Shaking Event). The Twilight War, as depicted in the FR novels trilogy by the same name, was labeled by WotC as an RSE. An RSE is definitely something people all across the Realms would know about because it has very widespread effects on people and places.

In this particular RSE, the entire country of Sembia was destroyed in a war in which Shar worked with the Shadovar archwizards of the returned ancient Netherese flying city of Shade Enclave to trigger a process by which all existence would end and the Multiverse would become literally nothing/emptiness. When the good gods learn of Shar's conspiracy, several of them led by Lathander banded together to defeat her plans. It would be impossible for anyone even remotely plugged into social life in the Realms to have not heard of these events.

Side note: If anyone here has an interest in exploring FR novels, I very strongly recommend anything written by Paul Kemp, and especially his Erevis Cale novels including of course The Twilight War trilogy.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
It's not directly representable in the lore, but I like to think as Shar as the dark side of the moon to selune's shining face of the moon. Can't have one without the other.

Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Originally Posted by Dexai
Not just her sibling, it should be noted: She went to war with herself over it wink

Wha question?

They were as one before this break in concord caused them to split.

Lazily copied from the wiki: "The goddesses were beautiful, identical but polar opposites, raven-haired and silver-haired, one representing the dark, the other the light in the manner of yin and yang. Yet they were so close they saw themselves as one being, known later as the Two-Faced Goddess or the Sisters-Who-Were-One. They complemented each other and brought order out of the chaos."

Apologise if it was the original state of my post you were getting at. I cleared up the autocorruptions and added the dropped letters wink

Indeed! I now fully understand the meaning of your original post.

This is fitting, in a way: getting into a relationship with Shar as one's patron is arguably entering into the epitome of abusive relationships. Abusers tend to have demons of their own...and Shar is no exception.

Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
I never thought I'd see people try to downplay the quietly monstrous nature of Shar.

Hardly surprising, people love the misunderstood trope these days. Quite scary when it comes to real life, quite questionable when it comes to fictioncal dieties of murder, everlasting darkness and the like.

Oh, no. I hope they don't introduce a retcon in the spirit of "She's not evil, just misunderstood." eek.

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Was relooking at my fan fic, and I thought I'd share this snippet. This would make a good first introduction to Shar in the Dank Crypt.

"I found another book," said Gale. "Might be of some interest. It's about Shar."
"Shar?" asked Shadowheart. She seemed curious. "Let me see it?" She made a grab for it, but Gale withheld it from her.
“Now. Now," he said with a sly grin. "I can share it with everyone. The most interesting portion is as follows:
“In life, her service had been impeccable. Daily did she devote herself to the Lady of Loss. Daily did she free herself from the tyranny of memory. All, in time, was lost to her - her relations, her preferences, even her own name. Upon the altar of her devotion placed she the ultimate offering: her emptied mind.”
“And when she died, when she awoke in death and found herself standing in the pale and faded City of Judgment, she waited for the Lady of Loss to retrieve her. A million souls and more passed her in colorless gusts, but no hand materialized in her hand; no voice whispered instruction in her ear; no guidance proffered itself from the bleached and barren sky. Time, immaterial time, passed around her like air, coming and going. And still, the goddess did not come for her devotee.”
“Kelemvor pitied her, as much as the Lord of the Dead is able, but could not intervene. The cleric of the Lady of Loss, unclaimed despite her worthiness, might yet have one more lesson to learn: That not of forgetting, but being forgotten."
He closed the book with a snap. "How... interesting. Wouldn't you say?"
"A ridiculous bedtime story for children," Lae'zel barked. She was in a foul mood. "I didn't even want to enter this stupid crypt, and now we are wasting time reading books about Shar and how she can't even remember her own followers. Sounds like a wretched goddess to serve."
Shadowheart shot her a dirty look. "Now there's an informed opinion for you," she commented sharply. "Leave it to a gith to be totally ignorant of facts."
Lae'zel hissed in reply. She readied her spear and was prepared to run Shadowheart through. Shadowheart, in return, pulled out her mace and shield. It was clear that a fight would begin in moments.
Kaedyn, naturally, stepped in. Fortunately, he was aided by Ryth-Shan who put his hand up to Lae'zel. "Ladies! Please! Do we really want to do this?" said Kaedyn. "We're all half dead already."
"We need one another right now," Ryth-Shan added. Then he whispered to Lae'zel, "You can always save killing her for AFTER we find a cure. Yes?"
Both began to calm down, and they lowered their weapons. Shadowheart stormed away. "I can't WAIT to be rid of them." She gestured at Lae'zel and Ryth-Shan as she said it. Then she was out of the library and pacing angrily in the adjoining room to cool off.

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Then, second explanation of Shar and Selune both, along with other lore, could occur something like this shortly after the confrontation with Kagha, Rath and Arabella. Basically, the game has one of your party suggest that you should check out the murals, as in this clip (and the discussion!!! Most of all, the party should be discussing these things as if trying to figure them out together... though maybe not necessarily with all the fan theory as if the game is going to spoon feed you the mystery. I mean, I don't want them to spoon feed me the mystery of what's going on or anything. The point and idea is that they could use this moment, which most people are going to go to Kagha at the grove, to teach people about who Shar is, with more detail than the initial encounter in the Dank Crypt as I detail above):

As the party made their way towards the exit to leave the inner sanctum, Wynari stopped them. She ran up to Ryth-Shan and pointed at a plaque and a mural beyond. "Did you notice this?" she said excitedly. "I figured you'd like it if you hadn’t seen it yet."
Ryth-Shan paused and glanced in the direction she indicated. "No," he said. "I hadn't taken the time to read it." Then he examined them more carefully. "'The forest rose with claw and tooth to tear the darkness from its roots,'" he read straight from the plaque. "Druidic orders often fight dark forces, but I do not recognize the events depicted here. The mural depicts a purge, a sacred cleansing of the land on a scale I've never seen before."
"Me either," said Wynari. "So this didn’t happen over the last hundred and thirty years? I guess if you don't know about it, though, it could have occurred at any time." She then pointed at another plaque and mural. "There's another one there, too. And two more over there."
"Can we just go?" asked Vexir, not interested in the slightest.
Ryth-Shan shook his head. "Could be important. We can't rule out anything." Then he went over to the second plaque. "'By claw and tooth, from root to thorn, The Old Oak's grove, to wildlings sworn.'"
"The druids are elders of a circle, I think," said Wynari. "This place is a divine sanctuary."
Ryth-Shan nodded. "Seems so. No wonder the druids here revere it so much. It could be why the goblins and their leaders want to destroy it so badly. It could be that they are out for revenge, if the darkness had to do with them."
“Oh? You think it’s about goblins and their leaders?” said Wynari. “Nah. I think this grove was once a place of power for someone like Shar, or maybe the Shadow Druids of Cloakwood.”
“Really?” asked Kaedyn. “How did you arrive at that conclusion?”
“‘The forest rose with claw and tooth,’” said Wynari, “‘to tear the darkness from its roots.’ Doesn’t that sound like the servants of nature had to come and defeat the darkness before they could settle here? So, I was thinking that a long time ago there was some sort of evil lurking here. Like I said, maybe it was the Shadow Druids of Cloakwood, or maybe it was just Sharites.” Then she paused for a moment to consider. “I actually assumed they were Sharites because there’s another mural over there that suggests Sharites were involved, at least.”
“But, anyway,” she continued, “I think the first druids came here and purged the grove. Then they established it as a place of power for Silvanus. Then, based on the second mural, I think that Silvanus granted the druids sanctuary here and made them the caretakers as their reward.”
“The darkness could mean anything,” said Ryth-Shan, now deep in thought. “Could be goblins, drow, Sharites, shadow druids, you name it. Either way, I think it’s connected to us.”
"Wait," said Wyll, confused. "You think that the gobbos attacking, the problems with the grove here, and the brain bugs are all a part of some grand scheme of some kind? They're all connected? Am I missing something? How does that make any sense?"
Kaedyn met his gaze. "We've found a number of potential clues. Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul might somehow be a part of this, along with Jergal, Shar, Selune... who knows? We are finding a lot of coincidences and connections.”
“Right,” said Ryth-Shan. “Coincidence? Selune was worshipped heavily in this area. She has a ruined temple in the west. The goblins have taken that temple as their camp. Those same goblins carry shields with a symbol that looks like the blending of the three symbols of Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul. We've recently discovered that the dead drow in the chamber with Nettie had a tadpole in his head, and he was leading some of those same goblins."
"And there's an old crypt of Jergal to the south of here," Gale added. "There, we found a book that is currently, magically recording which gods were dead and have now been made alive by the Second Sundering. There's even been hints of Shar's involvement in the area, and Harpers too."
"And now this," said Ryth-Shan.
"Wait!" said Wynari. "Yes! The other murals indicate Shar and Harpers too. Come on. Take a look." She led them over to the next one. "'In darkest hour, a concord made, twixt harp and wild against the shade.' Harp and wild? Do you recall the old stories of an alliance between druids and the Harpers?"
"A bit, but the details are vague," admitted Ryth-Shan.
Gale took a proud stance, for he, it seemed, knew all about this topic. "Of what alliance are you referring to?" he asked with an air of superiority. "As one really delves into the history of the Harpers, one realizes that they were, in fact, founded by rangers and druids back in the Year of Freedom's Friends, 324 DR - Dale Reckoning, that is. Myth Drannan elven military leaders joined forces with these few trusted human nature-lovers and formed the organization. At the head was Elminster Aumar, renowned mage and, frankly, a friend of mine, actually. He's like a mentor to me. He currently resides in Waterdeep, where I'm from, and he is both aiding the newly appointed Open Lord of Waterdeep, Laeral Silverhand, and he is uncovering a string of murders involving some sort of Masked Lords. I was hoping to help him, but... well... I became caught up in my own personal affairs. And then, all this happened."
He waved that aside. "Anyway, as it stands, druids have a long history with the Harpers," Gale continued. "For example, on the twenty-seventh of Flamerule of 720 DR, at a druid grove in High Dale, known as the Dancing Place, a large congregation of dryads bid the druids to make welcome the priests of many different gods who started to arrive before finally Elminster appeared to explain why they had all been called. This was the First Reformation. They were all called to help fight back against the faithful of Bane, Bhaal, Loviatar, Malar and Myrkul.”
“Again,” said Gale, pausing from his dissertation, “here we bring up the Dead Three. Yes? And, I might add, that the priests who came were priests of Corellon, Mielikki, Mystra, Oghma, Selune, Silvanus, and Tymora. They possessed their own followers during that council to speak through them so that they could make it plain they all needed to work together. That night was known as the Gathering of the Gods."
Vexir was, for once, intrigued. "I suppose you're right. Again, it does seem like we are at the heart of some sort of new God-War. Many of those same gods seem connected to what we are going through."
"So, I wonder if the mural is referring to that event; the Gathering of the Gods," said Kaedyn.
"I doubt it," said Gale. "The murals here seem to imply only an alliance between Harpers and the druids at this grove."
"Are there any other alliances that might fit better?" asked Wyll.
"Let's review the last mural first," said Gale. "It might give better clues."
They moved over to the last mural. Several druids nearby took notice of them, but they seemed totally uninterested. They were too busy arguing over Kagha's decision. Some were pleased that Kagha had released Arabella, and some seemed quite upset by it. Those upset by it expressed their frustration towards the mooching tieflings and their fears that they might not survive the winter because their supplies were being depleted.
Ryth-Shan read off the last plaque's inscription. "'The towers seized, the battle done, the moonrise broke the Darkest One.' Look!" He pointed to the mural. "Wynari’s right. The mark of the dark goddess Shar on the broken helmet. This army marched in her name."
"'Moonrise' must be a reference to Shar's divine sister, Selune," said Kaedyn. “So, once again, we have Shar and Selune involved in this area.”
"I wonder if all this has something to do with the battle of Shar and Selune over the streets of Waterdeep," said Gale as he thought aloud. "In the Year of Shadows, 1358 DR, the Time of Troubles, magic went crazy. The gods were forced to walk the Realms in mortal form.”
“That’s two years after… I mean… that’s roughly when I was taken,” said Wynari.
Gale didn’t even seem to hear her. “Selune was already in mortal form as Luna. Long story short, Shar pretended to be Selune and tricked a lot of people. In the end, the truth was discovered, and Selune battled Shar over the streets of Waterdeep. Her light blasted away Shar's darkness while she reminded her of their unceasing battle and the balance they must uphold. Shar vanished, and the avatar of Selune became Luna once more."
"After this encounter, Selune was free to do as she wished. She made new alliances in her unending war against Shar. It could be that, at that time, she came to this grove and made an alliance here," Gale suggested. "That would be roughly around 1360 DR. Other than this, I can't think of anything in the history books that relates here. There's a library in Waterdeep, though, and one in Baldur's Gate as well, that might shed more light on this. I recall these libraries had a plethora of books on Selune."
"All very interesting," said Ryth-Shan. "We'll have to keep these things in mind as we proceed."

Again, it doesn't have to go exactly llke this, but something like this would be good for people who just don't know much about the backstory of who Shar and Selune are. I mean, if they are major goddesses in the story, with their followers and remnants of their followers everywhere, SOME explanation should be given to new players.

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your fanfic is leaking out into the general topics again smile

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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
your fanfic is leaking out into the general topics again smile
+1

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It's being used to make a point related to the topic. Easier to use it than creating a brand new scenario to illustrate what the game needs.

Plus you know I put a lot of work into it so I might want to share it with people? If you don't like it don't read it.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
It's being used to make a point related to the topic. Easier to use it than creating a brand new scenario to illustrate what the game needs.

+1 to this, fwiw. I'm not super into fanfic generally, but it made the point very clearly

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Ragitsu
I never thought I'd see people try to downplay the quietly monstrous nature of Shar.

Hardly surprising, people love the misunderstood trope these days. Quite scary when it comes to real life, quite questionable when it comes to fictioncal dieties of murder, everlasting darkness and the like.
It isn't always about a misunderstood thing. In both real life and fiction, people have committed some pretty crappy acts in the name of "good" god(s) and some much nicer people can be found following the "evil" ones or none at all. Most people would not go anywhere near Shar worship, but it is very possible that someone could have turned to her because they lost everything in their lives and none of the other gods answered their prayers or whatever. Grief and desperation change a person. Also since the game needs to go into more detail about this stuff, it needs to be objective. Can't be talking about the "monstrous" nature of Shar because only good and some neutral types would see it as that. It is immersion breaking to call it that for players trying to do an evil playthrough. Call her an evil god or whatever because that is her alignment, but the game should not try to force an opinion on people.

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But then, it can also immersion braking if your "good" character doesn't know that Shar is a goddess which wants to wipe out all life on Faerun and has actively tried to do it already not long ago. I don't think this comes across well so far. Neither from the reaction of the other companions when Shadowheart has her revelation moment, nor from the books I read in game. You get Shadowheart's side of the story, which is good, but I think like the OP, we should get more information about Shar directly right at the start. It makes no sense that someone who calls herself "Shadowheart", is very secretive and a cleric, wouldn't be asked about what god she serves. And the whole story is meant to be like this big decision for the player character, whereas for me the whole thing just came over as "ok, not sure why she was so coy about this". Then worship Shar, why should I or anyone else care.

On the other hand, if you really take the Companion backgrounds seriously, I'm not sure if you'd associate yourself with any of them. La'zael you can't trust at all. After she finds her creche, she could just kill you, and you know she doesn't have any scruples about that, or might not be able to prevent her kin doing it even if she had scruples. Gale is either delusional or a walking time bomb, then you have a vampire and a guy who has made a pact with a devil.

I personally don't care that much about all of this, I have fun playing the game, but personally, I think they could have toned it a bit down with those background stories. Not everyone needs to be evil or have big, threatening secret.

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That's pretty much the misunderstood trope. Good is evil, evil has a reason to be evil, and all that.

I also don't see how whitewashing evil deities would serve anyone, or make sense. Bhaal is the god of murder, Shar is the goddess of darkness and loss, Bane is the god of tyranny. People who follow them don't believe in nicety, kittens and rainbows. They believe in murder, darkness, and tyranny, only to them those are good things.

Obviously Shadowheart should hype that shit, same for drows and Lolth, it would make no sense if they didn't, but regular people being chill with axe-murderers, ritualistic violence and all that for the sake of -- what? your character doesn't follow Asmodeus because he's nice -- makes just as much sense.

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Originally Posted by Caelir
But then, it can also immersion braking if your "good" character doesn't know that Shar is a goddess which wants to wipe out all life on Faerun and has actively tried to do it already not long ago.
Stating facts and not opinions is what I am asking for. Stating general information like that would give players more information but calling it "horrible" or "monstrous" or whatever is the unneeded part.

Originally Posted by Innateagle
That's pretty much the misunderstood trope. Good is evil, evil has a reason to be evil, and all that.

I also don't see how whitewashing evil deities would serve anyone, or make sense. Bhaal is the god of murder, Shar is the goddess of darkness and loss, Bane is the god of tyranny. People who follow them don't believe in nicety, kittens and rainbows. They believe in murder, darkness, and tyranny, only to them those are good things.

Obviously Shadowheart should hype that shit, same for drows and Lolth, it would make no sense if they didn't, but regular people being chill with axe-murderers, ritualistic violence and all that for the sake of -- what? your character doesn't follow Asmodeus because he's nice -- makes just as much sense.
Misunderstood to me is more like "Shar isn't that bad, she was nice to me, so people are wrong who think she is mean" or something like that.
There is no need to whitewash anything, how you described those deities should be how they are described in game, with simple facts.
I think regular people in the FR don't freak out over this stuff so much because they can't do anything about it. Why work yourself up into a state of anxiety or rage if you don't have the power to fix something. There probably has to be somewhat of a balance between good and evil as well or neutral couldn't exist.

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I just restarted the game, and I'm right back in the camp of, "As soon as I meet Shadowheart, a Religion roll should be made to determine who she serves." I don't care what you say, the armor DOES scream Shar.

Someone said that her armor has no big, black onyx gemstones on the pauldrons. Wrong. There there, as big and black as night. Huge black gemstones the size of fists on her shoulder armor. And that stone on her circlet is also pretty sizeable right smack dab in the center of her face. You can't miss it. She's got Shar written all over her look, and her name is flipping Shadowheart, like she just oh so loves the shadows. Even if the big black circle on her chestplate has a symbol that looks maybe like a sunrise between two hills painted in gold lines against a black background, it's still a black circle, and piecing it together with the huge onyx stones on her shoulders and her name and her big onyx forehead stone, I'm sorry, I just can't imagine her being any other cleric but a Sharran cleric.

And, keep in mind, people, that although BG3 doesn't focus on spell focus items, they are supposed to be a thing in D&D. Clerics and wizards and such can't cast spells without a spell focus. So, the circlet would naturally be a spell focus that she's wearing, and the spell focus for a cleric is their god or goddesses' holy symbol. What god or goddess in FR has a big black circle as their holy symbol? Shar.

And yeah, everyone would know Shar. Everyone!!! She is the primordial goddess of darkness and evil. It would be like someone in FR hearing the name Lolth and going, "Who? Is she good?" Everyone knows Lolth because everyone knows that she is the primary goddess of the majority of an entire race of people. It would also be like someone in FR asking who Tyr is. Shar is a major goddess. She's not some baby, lesser goddess, and she's as evil as sin, not misunderstood. Misunderstood is the kid who is a bit mischievous but never really hurts people. Everyone calls them bad because they do some mischievous things, but when push comes to shove, the kid does what's right. Misunderstood is the quirky woman who lives in a spooky house alone with her cats, so everyone calls her an evil witch. Misunderstood is the guy who plays video games all day and people tend to call him a sick pervert when he's really a super intelligent nice guy who helps people all the time.

Evil and bad are those who commit atrocities like murder, torture, kidnapping, child sacrifices, etc. What do Shar's followers do, and she approves of it? Murder, kidnapping, mind games and manipulations, and so forth. Yes, stupid people do bad things in the name of good gods, but that doesn't make the god bad. It makes the people who performed the acts bad. However, if the tenets of the faith promote murder and other evil things, the god is plain evil. There is no "misunderstanding" there. The tenets teach evil, then it is evil.

Therefore, a Religion roll of 10 or higher should be made, assuming that it is common knowledge but maybe not everyone cares about religions and wouldn't pay attention to the symbols of every god or goddess, and if successful, the character should immediately be told that Shar is the evil goddess of darkness and loss. She is considered a vile, evil blight upon the lands, and anyone who serves her is usually arrested or killed. Then the player should be given the option to confront her right then and there about her faith or to simply pretend like they don't know this information and carry on. Then, when she does reveal it later, the player should have the ability to say, "Yeah, I know. I've known all along," and that should have a big impact on your relationship with her.

If you fail the Religion roll, you know nothing about Shar and don't question it, and you learn nothing as a new player. However, as the game progresses, because Shar and Selune are such big deals in it, the game should give you more and more information as you go via even small cutscene dialogues. "Shar," says Gale or Shadowheart or even Lae'zel or Astarion as you pick up the Unclaimed book. "Curious. I wonder why there's a book sitting there about some devotee of hers." Then you have the option of asking, "Who is Shar? I'm not familiar with her. I don't pay attention much to religions." "Shar's the goddess of evil and shadows and loss. Most hate her and her secret sect of followers. Little is actually known about her practices because the followers are so secretive. I wonder what Shar has to do with anything around here. This place is strange. There're books and tomes about so many different deities." Then later, you learn more from someone detailing how Shar and Selune are at war with each other, and they teach you a bit about Selune as well because she's obviously an important deity to the story.

When it comes to major story elements, they should be delivered in dialogue, not books. Players should not be expected to pick up and read every book that can be found in the game in order to get the basic story, and that's the point, I thought, of the thread.

And if they don't want Shadowheart to be discovered as a Sharran cleric, they shouldn't make it so obvious right from the beginning. Frankly, the way the game art has been displayed all over the place, they've revealed who these characters are from the beginning which destroys for anyone the ability to be surprised by their big reveals. If they wanted it to be a surprise, they shouldn't have splattered things all over to make it so obvious. Regardless, if I pretend I didn't know Shadowheart was a Sharran from the beginning, I'd still know because of her equipment alone.

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"Everyone would know who Shar is!"

You could say that in the U.S. everyone would know who the vice president is. First female vice president. It's historic.

Sure, you could say that everyone would know.

Now go do some street interviews. You'll find out quicker than you like what people actually know versus what you think they should know. And this is in a country with free public education for everyone.

Transition over to a society filled mostly with uneducated peasants, all split apart by assorted boundaries. In a land filled with numerous races and monsters and bandits and wizards and this symbol and that symbol. No, the average person doesn't know a tenth of what the typical Forgotten Realms fan does, especially considering the fan has probably spent years reading setting books.

It's a common mistake, the inability to see the trees for the forest.

A farmer would see that circlet and armor and think: rich. Not Shar.

Someone who made a study of religion and symbols *might* put one and one together, assuming they made an appropriate DC check. But even then, I would expect them to know she was a cleric first.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Therefore, a Religion roll of 10 or higher should be made, assuming that it is common knowledge but maybe not everyone cares about religions and wouldn't pay attention to the symbols of every god or goddess, and if successful, the character should immediately be told that Shar is the evil goddess of darkness and loss.
I think a DC 10 might be a bit too high for basic knowledge. A player who knows nothing about the FR and doesn't have anyone with Religion proficiency in their party is going to be confused for a while. Probably everyone should be told she is the god of darkness secrets and loss and is opposed to her sister. Depending on how important they make alignment in the game they could throw in the evil part here as well. A Religion check should give more information, maybe make the DC lower if there is already a cleric in the party, this extra information (which should remain factual) should be able to be learned later on like you mentioned if failing the roll.

And maybe they should modify her armour a bit so people can't assume things from it.

Originally Posted by JandK
Transition over to a society filled mostly with uneducated peasants, all split apart by assorted boundaries. In a land filled with numerous races and monsters and bandits and wizards and this symbol and that symbol. No, the average person doesn't know a tenth of what the typical Forgotten Realms fan does, especially considering the fan has probably spent years reading setting books.
I agree with this entirely, most people would only know of the gods pertinent to their lives. Those with higher education and perhaps in large cities where there are temples of all types, and of course adventurers would know a bit more. However this doesn't help the situation of the player being confused, so I think more knowledge should be given somehow.

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Y'all talking like the druids don't have goddamn murales about fighting followers of Shar. Like, come on. No one, people of higher learning like the druids and Gale included, fail to give SH a second glance for the same reason no one gives a drow MC a second glance. Because.

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Originally Posted by Zarna
Also since the game needs to go into more detail about this stuff, it needs to be objective. Can't be talking about the "monstrous" nature of Shar because only good and some neutral types would see it as that. It is immersion breaking to call it that for players trying to do an evil playthrough. Call her an evil god or whatever because that is her alignment, but the game should not try to force an opinion on people.

I'm not sure who you're saying that talking about Shar's monstrous nature would be a problem for.
I don't see it as being immersion-breaking unless Shadowheart says it.
Most characters in the setting probably see Shar that way, so Neutral or Good characters saying that wouldn't be a problem, books having that written would make sense, and even if some Evil characters said it, that would be understandable if they didn't agree with Shar's goal.

If the narrator says it, something like "Shar is well-known for her harmful actions" might work well to explain without telling the player what their character thinks of Shar.
For the player character however, I don't think that it would be immersion breaking for the player to have an option for them to say that Shar's monstrous, Evil or not, since there are a lot of Good and Evil options in the game's dialogue, despite going through an Evil or Good playthrough.

Originally Posted by JandK
"Everyone would know who Shar is!"

You could say that in the U.S. everyone would know who the vice president is. First female vice president. It's historic.

Sure, you could say that everyone would know.

Now go do some street interviews. You'll find out quicker than you like what people actually know versus what you think they should know. And this is in a country with free public education for everyone.

Transition over to a society filled mostly with uneducated peasants, all split apart by assorted boundaries. In a land filled with numerous races and monsters and bandits and wizards and this symbol and that symbol. No, the average person doesn't know a tenth of what the typical Forgotten Realms fan does, especially considering the fan has probably spent years reading setting books.

It's a common mistake, the inability to see the trees for the forest.

A farmer would see that circlet and armor and think: rich. Not Shar.

Someone who made a study of religion and symbols *might* put one and one together, assuming they made an appropriate DC check. But even then, I would expect them to know she was a cleric first.

That seems like a bad analogy.
Most people know who God and Satan are and who the righteous and the tyrants were, and even in ancient times, people usually knew about those in the past who were really good or bad.
Maybe people would forget about such people if they passed away a long time ago, but when it's an immortal being that's still active, especially a deity, they're probably not going to be forgotten so easily.

Last edited by EliasIncarnation; 27/10/21 04:17 PM.
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Let me put it like this:

Did you know there was a cult that exists that worships Satan? How many people in your society would you say have heard about Satan? Do they think a Satanic cult is good or bad? I'd you met some random woman, and she was wearing an upside down cross on her chest and a pentagram on her forehead and shoulders, and those pentagrams were as big as the sun, and you found out she was a priestess of some religion, do you think it would be NOT obvious who she was a priestess of?

Shar is like Satan in FR. She is well-known and feared and detested. And yes, maybe some would not know her symbols, but many would especially Gale and druids in the Grove.

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