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Thinking about it, it's actually kinda funny how incompetent Halsin is. Dude's fought Sharites, is the archdruid, and yet never even says a word about Shadowheart. Narratively speaking having him be suspicious, recognize her apparel, would have been a neat way to tie the whole thing together, give answers to all those players who'd failed the checks on her even. But nope, he's just oblivious.

Kagha and her shadow druids likely held their voodoo rituals in my man's bedroom, he just never noticed.

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People worship evil deities for the same reason why people in the Star Wars universe take up "The Dark Side": it is an easier, quicker path to power. Altruism and empathy are burdens not everyone can or wishes to bear. Also, if genuine ignorance (e.g., "Shar is not evil.") is not a factor, then the worshiper believes they can "game the system" and come out ahead when they finally die.

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Originally Posted by Zarna
Originally Posted by JandK
Transition over to a society filled mostly with uneducated peasants, all split apart by assorted boundaries. In a land filled with numerous races and monsters and bandits and wizards and this symbol and that symbol. No, the average person doesn't know a tenth of what the typical Forgotten Realms fan does, especially considering the fan has probably spent years reading setting books.
I agree with this entirely, most people would only know of the gods pertinent to their lives. Those with higher education and perhaps in large cities where there are temples of all types, and of course adventurers would know a bit more. However this doesn't help the situation of the player being confused, so I think more knowledge should be given somehow.

Ineducation is not ignorance. Peasants are not dumb. They'd full well know who figures and concepts central to their religion and culture are. Travel back and ask a French 12th century peasant who Satan is and they'll tell you. Go to a 50 BC Jewish peasant and ask them about the Shaitan the Tempter and they'll answer. Head over east and ask a Zoroastran who the Adversary is, or up to the North and ask about Fimbulwinter and you'll get an answer.

Now go ask a Faerun peasant about why the moon changes every month and they'll answer "it's because Selune is locked in eternal battle with her sister Shar, who seeks to bring darkness to the world, and the moon waxes and wanes as they fight". Even the most uneducated mud-farmer would know something so foundational to the mythos of their culture and world.

Now, I'm all for the aspect of Shar that is the twisted maternal figure, the one who promises love and then envelopes you in darkness, who draws in the broken and lost of the world. But that aspect is a chimera, a facade. And it's not what the average person of the realms would know of her, aside from scholars only the handful of people which she approaches under this illusion will know of it. And don't get me wrong, I hope that's where they're going with Shadowheart's story. But it's not the knowledge that needs to be given to the player before Shadowheart's reveal in order for them to be able to make an informed choice about their in-character reaction to said reveal (unless, I suppose, they are playing a Shar worshipper). And that is the heart of the topic of this thread. People don't feel they know why they should react to Shar being Shadowheart's patron.


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Well said

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I'm coming to this not previously knowing anything of FR lore, so this has been a really, really interesting discussion to follow. My first playthroughs, it didn't occur to me as a possibility I should know/care about Shadowheart's religion based on her armor. Someone waaaay upthread made an interesting comparison to the pantheons of the Classical Mediterranean, how for those folks, deities were already nearly allegorical, but in Faerun, it's different because they're tangible and one can see their actions directly. I could quibble points of that comparison, but taken as an example of how societies relate to a pantheon, the comparison raises this point:

Every single person in the Classical world was well-versed in much, if not the entirety, of their pantheon. We know this because we have their fiction, their plays, the songs sung around the fire at festivals. There is a baked-in assumption that the audience didn't require any exposition of any particular deity's role in the world beyond the occasional sentence fragment ("Oh Artemis, lady of the hunt...") probably thrown in for children (I have no citation for that, it's just my assumption). Everybody knew.

So... yes, the PC should know about Shar, hands down. I like the idea of a DC 10 religion check. You fail, you get the bare-bones Shar 101, what your mother told you as a kid. Succeed, you get some deeper lore. But better, as others have pointed out, Shar as a character should not be a walking billboard for her goddess, and that religion check should come when she makes her reveal, before you choose how to respond.

Last edited by colinl8; 27/10/21 02:16 PM. Reason: clarity
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There is definitely a degree of assuming too much on the part of the player, which will hopefully be fixed by release. The problem is that the player character knows more than the player in many circumstances. I think the Pillars of Eternity, Tyranny and the Owlcat Pathfinder games had a decent solution for it with their popup lore for those interested.


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All these comparisons to satan are patently inaccurate. That's a religion with one God and one bad figure in the form of satan.

It's not the same as a world with multiple religions and hundreds of different monster races; it's a wonder anyone in that setting can keep anything straight in their heads.

People are projecting what they know from reading setting books onto NPCs in the most two dimensional manner possible.

At the end of the day, if that's the way you want to look at it, fine. Unfortunately, I have zero interest in playing that game because I think the depth is shallow. (Luckily, that's not the game I'm playing.)

Originally Posted by Innateagle
...recognize her apparel...

No one recognizes it because it's not specific-to-Shar attire.

People see these design choices by artists and suddenly jump to the conclusion that, "Yeppers, that's official 100% Shar regalia right there, totally canon Shar outfit, only the dumbest of the dumb-dumbs wouldn't recognize that there Shar regalia as being official Shar church merchandise, yeppers."

Again, if that's the way people want to play things, by all means. I can't get on board, though. I think insisting that an onyx circlet is a sure fire sign that someone worships Shar is ridiculous. Even coupled with round black circles on the shoulders of the armor (which is a look that's been updated in various patches, I believe).

But whatever, sure, maybe the armor is a uniform and everyone who worships Shar gets it as a sign on bonus.

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Originally Posted by JandK
All these comparisons to satan are patently inaccurate. That's a religion with one God and one bad figure in the form of satan.

It's not the same as a world with multiple religions and hundreds of different monster races; it's a wonder anyone in that setting can keep anything straight in their heads.

People are projecting what they know from reading setting books onto NPCs in the most two dimensional manner possible.

At the end of the day, if that's the way you want to look at it, fine. Unfortunately, I have zero interest in playing that game because I think the depth is shallow. (Luckily, that's not the game I'm playing.)

Originally Posted by Innateagle
...recognize her apparel...

No one recognizes it because it's not specific-to-Shar attire.

People see these design choices by artists and suddenly jump to the conclusion that, "Yeppers, that's official 100% Shar regalia right there, totally canon Shar outfit, only the dumbest of the dumb-dumbs wouldn't recognize that there Shar regalia as being official Shar church merchandise, yeppers."

Again, if that's the way people want to play things, by all means. I can't get on board, though. I think insisting that an onyx circlet is a sure fire sign that someone worships Shar is ridiculous. Even coupled with round black circles on the shoulders of the armor (which is a look that's been updated in various patches, I believe).

But whatever, sure, maybe the armor is a uniform and everyone who worships Shar gets it as a sign on bonus.

The problem with SHs default armor is that it has Sharran symbols at all. Which is kinda weird for someone that 1) worships a secretive goddess and 2) tries to keep it secret. When she revealed it to me the first time, my reaction was "Duuh, of course you do. What's the real secret?"


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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Let me put it like this:

Did you know there was a cult that exists that worships Satan? How many people in your society would you say have heard about Satan? Do they think a Satanic cult is good or bad? I'd you met some random woman, and she was wearing an upside down cross on her chest and a pentagram on her forehead and shoulders, and those pentagrams were as big as the sun, and you found out she was a priestess of some religion, do you think it would be NOT obvious who she was a priestess of?

Shar is like Satan in FR. She is well-known and feared and detested. And yes, maybe some would not know her symbols, but many would especially Gale and druids in the Grove.

Well, this is too easy. There are populations in Africa today that are cut off from modern society, some by choice some because they're next to impossible to get to, and they wouldn't have a clue. Stepping back 200ish years, the Native Americans had no idea. Christianity ran roughshod over most of Europe and parts of Asia, but always managed to find "heathens" to convert. Was God less immortal back then? It's not hard at all to imagine that some people wouldn't have an idea about who this God or that Goddess was if they hadn't been exposed to them at some point.

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Originally Posted by TomReneth
The problem with SHs default armor is that it has Sharran symbols at all. Which is kinda weird for someone that 1) worships a secretive goddess and 2) tries to keep it secret. When she revealed it to me the first time, my reaction was "Duuh, of course you do. What's the real secret?"

I definitely wish the designers had given her a normal set of armor to start with instead of trying to personalize it to her taste. The design of her armor could have been a cool, subtle thing, but no. Too many people are so certain of themselves, insisting her armor is the same thing as a priest's clerical collar or a yarmulke.

I had the same reaction to her revelation about her religion, but the reason why was because I was playing Shadowheart, leveling her up, and I'd seen her character sheet. Which clearly states: Cleric of Shar. <-- that's the real clue, not some jewelry on her head.

Without a doubt, I believe that she could've looked exactly the same, and if the game developers had her worshiping any other God instead, we wouldn't be hearing word one about how "obvious" it is that she worships Shar because of her circlet and shoulders.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Let me put it like this:[...]

Shar is like Satan in FR. She is well-known and feared and detested. And yes, maybe some would not know her symbols, but many would especially Gale and druids in the Grove.
Well, this is too easy. There are populations in Africa today that are cut off from modern society, some by choice some because they're next to impossible to get to, and they wouldn't have a clue. Stepping back 200ish years, the Native Americans had no idea. Christianity ran roughshod over most of Europe and parts of Asia, but always managed to find "heathens" to convert. Was God less immortal back then? It's not hard at all to imagine that some people wouldn't have an idea about who this God or that Goddess was if they hadn't been exposed to them at some point.
Okay, but the Sword Coast is a limited region in Toril, a region defined by the worship of these gods. So our analogy should be restricted to a similar Earth Area: let's say the east coast of the US where Baldur's Gate is Washington DC. Given that Tav is, by default, from Baldur's gate, the appropriate analogy would be someone living in DC not having heard of Satan. At the very worst, Tav might have spent his life in rural South Carolina or Arkansas, but should still know of Satan in those cases.

Your analogy would be someone living deep in the jungle of Chult having not heard of Shar, which sure that's fair. Although actually this analogy is too generous, because you specified "cut off from modern society" whereas Chult does have communications with the Sword Coast.

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Guys. In Forgotten Realms, on Faerun, gods and goddesses are real and very active. Their symbols and statues and lore are everywhere. You are talking about Native Americans who were isolated from eastern cultures and Africans who were also isolated, and you are talking as if the general populace of the Sword Coast region is the entire world of Faerun.

Yes, there would be pockets of people in Faerun who have never heard of Shar. Yes, absolutely true, but not in the Heartlands, HEARTLANDS mind you, of the Sword Coast halfway between 2 very popular and populated major cities that all believe in the same Pantheon of Gods. Shar and Selune were and still are when the game takes place, VERY active goddesses in the entire region.

In the Time of Troubles, back around 1358-1372 DR (can't remember exact dates right now) when Moonhaven was destroyed, Shar and Selune literally came to Faerun in avatars, and they flipping battled in the streets of Waterdeep for everyone to see.

Now, in the game, it's been over a hundred and twenty-ish years since then, but these goddesses are still major figures in the entire culture of the entire region.

So, it is more like someone from Ancient Greece who lived in Ancient Greece their whole lives, not knowing who Hades or any of the major Greek gods were. Imagine someone in Ancient Greece seeing a symbol of Hades and saying, "Hmmm. Oh well. You're a cleric of who now? Nah. Never mind. I don't wanna know. I'm not interested."

I don't think that it's unreasonable to ask Larian to put in a Religion check to see if your character recognizes or just even questions her outfit, if they are going to still have her roam around in that outfit. My personal preference would be that they would not make her so stupid and that she'd at least not have big black orbs on her shoulders and a huge circle on her chest and forehead. Just tweak the armor to not scream Sharran, and have the character ask her what her religion is when they first meet her on the beach. She can lie through her teeth, and an Insight roll made by the MC could detect that she's totally lying, or if you fail, you just don't realize that she is.

She could say, "I serve Melira Taralen," who is a goddess of deception that is much lesser and much more accepted than Shar if people even know her at all because she's more unheard of who is also of the trickery domain... or someone similar. Thus, she can explain away using her trickery domain powers without making it so obvious that she's a Sharran.

I would even use the same armor, but have the black orbs missing as if the armor was damaged. She removed the stones to hide who she really serves so no one would suspect. However, once you head into the Underdark, a small cutscene shows her putting them back on along with the big black circle on her chest. "These will enhance my armor and provide Shar's blessing upon it," she says. "Now that we're not going to be roaming about on the surface, I feel safe putting these back on." Then her armor provides her with some sort of Blessing of Shar or something to make it special.

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This is how I think the Shadowheart reveal should go, with other options, of course, but the option to say some of these things should be present.

But that wasn't what caught their attention. Shadowheart was fixed on a damaged old statue before them. Suddenly, pain rippled across her features and she held her left hand up before her, looking at it as if it was alive. The moment seemed to pass, and a look of terror seized her. She looked up at Vexir, her eyes were like that of a frightened child looking to her mother for help. "We... we should keep moving," was all she could say. Then she tried to harden her features.
"What just happened?' asked Vexir, concerned.
The cleric tried to smile, pretending as if she was perfectly fine. "Nothing," she obviously lied. "A trick of the light. But something tells me there might be a solution to some of our problems hiding in this wilderness."
Vexir’s expression softened. "If there's something else you want to say, I'm listening," she told her.
Shadowheart sighed. "There's signs there was a conflict around here, some time ago. Conflict needs opposing sides. Whoever they were, they must've had resources. A little investigating could turn up something of interest. Let's go."
Vexir put her hands on her hips. She made it obvious she wasn't budging until Shadowheart laid everything she had to say out in the open. "Listen," she said. "It's obvious to everyone by now that you're not a cleric of... whoever you said you were a cleric of before. All this talk of conflict and resources, that isn't what you're really getting at. Just speak plainly. We're all in this together at this point. There's more to this. What aren't you telling me?"
Shadowheart seemed both angry and relieved at the same time. "You're not going to let this go, are you? Fine. I worship Shar, the Mistress of the Night." She then pulled out her holy symbol and affixed it to a headband of metal. When she put it on her head, the symbol displayed a dark circle at the center of her forehead. Now that they knew about it, she displayed it proudly.
Astarion snickered. "Really? I never would have guessed." It was obvious that he was being sarcastic.
Shadowheart ignored him. She was finally confessing her biggest secret, and she now needed to get it off her chest completely. "The destruction of this Selune statue looks like the handiwork of my brothers and sisters. Now that you have the truth, please don't make a big fuss about it."

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Originally Posted by Ragitsu
Video games used to feature quite a bit of text (Baldur's Gate included). Nowadays, people expect their video games to be movies. Bleh.
Hehe get where you're coming from. I miss the manuals the most. Those were half the fun really... I still go back to some of those funky ASCII art guides for infinity games. I mean those video games caused a whole literature ...

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I don't like to read these days. But you know, I never really liked reading all those books in the first two games. Some of them I would read, if they weren't too long, but most I skimmed through and just sold. It was a lot of lore. I didn't have time for that. I just wanted to get to the game.

I do like that they have books and such in this game, and that those books and stuff are not too lengthy and are usually related some way to the game. However, all this thread is asking for is at least some basic description of who the major gods and goddesses are in this game. If the god or goddess important to the game, pepper those explanations in at various points so you don't lose those who aren't familiar with the world. That's it. Nothing huge.

The biggest thing we're asking for is that they make shadow hearts armor not so obviously from her goddess as if her goddess likes her servants parading around advertising it

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Originally Posted by JandK
No one recognizes it because it's not specific-to-Shar attire.

People see these design choices by artists and suddenly jump to the conclusion that, "Yeppers, that's official 100% Shar regalia right there, totally canon Shar outfit, only the dumbest of the dumb-dumbs wouldn't recognize that there Shar regalia as being official Shar church merchandise, yeppers."

Again, if that's the way people want to play things, by all means. I can't get on board, though. I think insisting that an onyx circlet is a sure fire sign that someone worships Shar is ridiculous. Even coupled with round black circles on the shoulders of the armor (which is a look that's been updated in various patches, I believe).

But whatever, sure, maybe the armor is a uniform and everyone who worships Shar gets it as a sign on bonus.

You just pick and choose, my man. If you ask me, this is a weird hill to die on, but whatever. If you think people who've literally immortalized their war against followers of Shar all over their walls wouldn't recognize her symbol on SH's breastplate and circlet, or indeed just throw a second glance to them, all the power to you. Makes no sense, but hey, at least we went from 'farmers wouldn't put two and two together' to 'the archdruid who fought disciples of Shar wouldn't put two and two together'.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
You just pick and choose, my man. If you ask me, this is a weird hill to die on, but whatever.

I'm not dying. I'm alive and well, and my argument actually makes sense. As opposed to people insisting it's obviously a Shar outfit, only gosh, nobody notices. Yeah, they don't notice because it's not a Shar outfit.

I see no reason not to provide my point of view in response to people continuously reiterating their opinions behind the mask of fact.

Originally Posted by Innateagle
If you think people who've literally immortalized their war against followers of Shar all over their walls...

Walls that are hidden in a grove where no one is allowed except for some questionable, middle-of-nowhere druids. Where no one in the mural is wearing Shadowheart's armor.

Originally Posted by Innateagle
wouldn't recognize her symbol on SH's breastplate and circlet...

It's a circle. It's not a skull with fangs. It's not sword with wings. It's not a set of upside down scales. It's a circle.

It's completely nonsensical to think everyone who sees a dark circle is going to jump to the conclusion that they're dealing with Shar. It's so ridiculous it's laughable.

God forbid someone wear polka dots in your world.

Originally Posted by Innateagle
at least we went from 'farmers wouldn't put two and two together'...

Farmers would be *far* more worried about some stranger in town wearing armor and carrying weapons.

Originally Posted by Innateagle
'the archdruid who fought disciples of Shar wouldn't put two and two together'.

It's jewelry. It's a design, and any number of people could wear it without sinister motives. There is no "two and two" conspiracy to put together.

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Ah, whatever. You're arguing for the sake of arguing. Couple of posts ago you agreed that there should be a religion check, then you argued that the uncultured wouldn't know what the symbol or the onyx stand for, now you're arguing that people who are familiar with Shar and her disciples wouldn't recognize/throw a second glance to the onyx or the symbol because -- ah, right, now it's back to the symbol being laughably unrecognizable.

I'll reiterate, whatever. Weird hill to die on -- that's a saying by the way, no need to argue about the semantics of that too -- but you do you.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Ah, whatever. You're arguing for the sake of arguing. Couple of posts ago you agreed that there should be a religion check, then you argued that the uncultured wouldn't know what the symbol or the onyx stand for, now you're arguing that people who are familiar with Shar and her disciples wouldn't recognize/throw a second glance to the onyx or the symbol because -- ah, right, now it's back to the symbol being laughably unrecognizable.

I'll reiterate, whatever. Weird hill to die on -- that's a saying by the way, no need to argue about the semantics of that too -- but you do you.

From my point of view, you're the one dying on the hill here.

My argument has been consistent the entire time. I think it's ridiculous to say people would look at Shadowheart and jump to the conclusion that she's a follower of Shar because she's wearing an onyx circlet and has black circles on the shoulders of her armor. I think that entire suggestion lacks insight into the complexity of people. It's the product of reading setting books and then making wild assumptions about entire population groups in a decidedly narrow minded way.

I've said time and again that you're argument is an example of rigid thinking and that the world (people) don't work that way.

I expect a DM with a little age and experience to bring some nuance to the table, to understand the day to day livelihoods of the NPCs, to get that they're "real" people with "real" lives and not carbon copies of whatever meta reality the DM wants to impose.

I'm not arguing for the sake of arguing. I think you're wrong, and I'm pointing it out. There's a difference.

I never agreed there should be a religion check... if by that you mean I agreed there should be a check to accuse Shadowheart of being a follower of Shar. I said there should be a religion check to *give the PC some common knowledge about Shar* so that when it comes out that Shadowheart is a follower... then the PC has some base of information to fall back on. In my opinion, that's not necessary, but I agreed that it would be okay.

Suggesting that I said there should be a religion check to make an accusation against Shadowheart is just a comprehension issue, plain and simple. I'm glad I can clear it up because that's certainly not what I was saying.

As for the symbol being unrecognizable, yes. It's a circle. It's a design in thousands of pieces of jewelry and artwork. In fact, I literally point to evidence that it's unrecognizable: the evidence being that NO ONE IN THE GAME RECOGNIZES IT.

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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Ah, whatever. You're arguing for the sake of arguing. Couple of posts ago you agreed that there should be a religion check, then you argued that the uncultured wouldn't know what the symbol or the onyx stand for, now you're arguing that people who are familiar with Shar and her disciples wouldn't recognize/throw a second glance to the onyx or the symbol because -- ah, right, now it's back to the symbol being laughably unrecognizable.

I'll reiterate, whatever. Weird hill to die on -- that's a saying by the way, no need to argue about the semantics of that too -- but you do you.

In order to satisfy my peculiar curiosity, I searched for "onyx" in the three AD&D 2e deities book (arguably the definitive sources on the gods despite their age) in regards to evil deities. Three instances of onyx turned up in Faiths & Avatars: Mask (Neutral Evil), Myrkul (Neutral Evil and dead) and Shar (Neutral Evil). One instance of onyx turned up in Demihuman Deities: Vhaeraun (Chaotic Evil). One instance of onyx turned up in Powers and Pantheons: Velsharoon (Neutral Evil) is noted to be fond of black gemstones, Eshowdow (Chaotic Evil) and Set (Chaotic Evil) considers black gemstones sacred. Basically, a self-professed priest wearing prominent onyx jewelry should at least be given a sideways glance by anyone that hasn't been residing under a rock.

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