Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback A few thoughts on itemization

I was thinking about this. A lot.

Already back with D:OS2 I disliked three aspects of itemization done there:

a) Items lose their value quickly (because of stat bloat, but...) - this is especially painful on items that provide unique bonuses ()
b) Shopping for new items every level up, which can take 30-40 minutes in act 2 and even longer in act 3 because of limited supply there

Therefore:

c) Items acting mostly as a time / gold sink which comes with its own set of problems (counterbalancing the sinks by abusing thievery in early mid game, player not really looking forward to levelling up, instead thinking "hm, ok, I level up and then I take a break, I don't have the nerve yet to run to all the merchants to get gear", which is something I experienced a lot)

So, my thoughts regarding itemization, and this is a relatively mature proposal:

a) Only relatively few items which are really good ("Divine" level for example)
b) Those very good items
c) You need to fight / quest to get them, some may be hidden (not all, that would be bad)
d) Item stats scale with level (all items, not only the very good ones) - alternatively: have an easy to execute "upgrade" path ("add 3 drops of toad brew to this Sword of masterful Source Vampirism") which requires a few items, though
e) Excessively good items scale extra with quests for that item (we get something like this in WotR, which is currently a source of inspiration for my ideas)

A goal of my proposal is that trips to vendors are rare and mostly serve to "fill the gaps" and get some incidentals in most cases.

A good example in D:OS2 was a certain bow you could get in act "2.5" (as I prefer to call it) if - and only if - you made the right decision in relatively early game (about 3 hours in?). I loved that bow, but only on level 16. Had to replace it with some random vendor weapon again on level 18 already. :-(

Itemization is relatively good at the moment IMO. Yes it is far more magic items than in a typical DnD campaign, but that was to be expected from a video game. The items we get are not overly powerful most the time and we have room ro improve at higher levels.

Items leveling "with us" is not something that I find too interesting. This would create a "best in slot" situation quickly. Its more interesting to ponder the trade offs you have using one item or the other whenever you get a new one (or even changing those according to certain situations)

I don't think of items as being time or gold sinks. I enjoy getting items. I enjoy questing for them and purchasing them from vendors. It's part of what I like about the gaming experience.

As KingTiki says, it's interesting to consider the trade offs when you think about using this or that item.

I've never liked the idea of item leveling.

Honestly if there is something i would really appreciate, it would be limiting amount of Magical items a little ...
I mean, if magical items are so common in world, so you are on level 4 fully equipped by enchanted amor, weapons and stuff ... why there even exist non-magical items in higher-lvl zones?
This isnt exactly the BG-3 case, but just to explain my point easily i use example from WoW:
While you play by level 5-10 you allready have all items at least green ... every item gives you magical bonus for stats, therefore makes you stronger ... why vendors keep selling White items without any magical effect for lvl 40+? Nobody ever buyed that.

Honestly im little affraid for simmilar scenario in BG-3 when it will be released.
Right now, at (aproximately) 3/4 of Act 1 we get our hands to Adamantine Armor ... i wonder how long will that even work. :-/
Either it become really stupid that we get our hands on so incredibly strong item so soon, so we dont change it for really LONG time ...
Or, wich is maybe even worse, will that "legendary Adamantine" outpowered so soon, so we change it too quickly.

I dont like this idea ...

If items would be upgrading themselves passively, game looses any reason to provide better items regulary ...
If items would need to upgraded through some quest, or by gathering some materials ... i dont see any difference between geting new item instead.

Also there is that convenient excuse called immersion ...
If i can upgrade my armor in middle of the forest by placing in on the ground and adding few materials to it ... why would this world even need Blacksmiths?

No scaling weapons please!
This is d&d not an mmo.

I'm fine with upgradeable in the sense it time/level gated like they did with flail of ages in bg2 where it was +3 for a very long time

Have you played D:OS2?

I like items, too, I also LOVE to buy items from vendors. Time and again. A few items.

But in D:OS2 it was a chore, not an enjoyable experience.

The issue you describe is really proper to DOS:2 though. Mostly cause items in DOS: 2 were 90% about stat stacking. So you always had to look through all your items to get the correct ones on the correct character and that was it. No choice, nothing to think about. Just stacking the best stat on the right character.

Items in D&D aren't supposed to give you stats to begin with apart from the most powerful ones as far as I'm aware. They will be more about the various effects/ skills they give you.
So there won't be a need for items to " level up with you". Ocasionally you will swap your 1d6 + 1 weapon to 1d6 + 2....or not if the +1 gives you lifesteal or a spell you want and can't get in another way.

You're applying issues of DOS:2 to BG3 thinking they might do the same mistake but in DOS:2 they had to come up with their own system. Here they're taking the one from D&D so this issue won't exist. They might be other ones but well. It kinda answers your question.

Yes, I hope so.

But you never know what happens in higher levels or later acts... and I see EA as a great opportunity to talk about game philosophy as well.

I'd really hate to have items that scale my level.

But I'd like to find more "versatile" items that just improve my characters stats whatever my choices (+1 attack roll, +1 AC, +"x" resistance, +1dx fire/cold/... damage, +1 on specific checks,...)

At the moment it does not seem to be the main focus and most items are doing a lot of things except improving our characters.

Nobody had the thought about itemizations in every ACT so far.
Why you might ask. Hmm, well it could be that every act you will need to reqeuip everything a new, because eevery transition all your gear will be lost and you will start the new act with standard equipment.
That way the itemization is a whole different thing and you can get overporwered items in every act which just get conveniently lost at the start or just before the transition to next act.

Well done, every Act some hillariously overpowered god items and next act all the same again from start.
But dont be sad, you will have all your skills and level to be powerfull plus your tadpoles power too

Did i say it allready 3 times, every act new items again?

I really hope not ...
That really dont sound like pleasant experience.

It reminds me when i played one gamebook, back in ... i dunno, it might be 2004 cca ... i believe it was City of Thieves from Livingstone.
I was so happy when i finaly get my Plate Armor ... just to find out it was only trap from the autor, since in next scene i had to jump over a wall to escape guards ... and if you had Plate Armor, no matter if you were wearing it or if you had it in inventory ... you automaticly failed, bcs its weight allone draged you down.
Nasty trap. Funny at first, really frustrating to being so rudely forced to let it go.

had to correct my bad english: "conventiontly" to "conveniently", which was what i wanted to say. Not conventionally.

I really like collecting every magic item in the game and I feel like I have to say it but 5e item progression curve is way flatter than previous editions, in 3.5, you could go and stack an item with up to +10 worth of bonuses and it would just cost you 200k... now, a +3 sword is considered amazing and I don't know if I should feel old for complaining about this king of changes since 5e has been around for 10 years already...

anyway, my point is that you should not worry about your items being useless, this game has common, uncommon, rare, very rare and legendary ( white, green, blue, violet, gold for the colors ) rarities and it is roughly decided by the number of bonuses applied on it ( it is not calculated, it is written in the item definition )

now, for the idea of upgrading items, d&d has rules for that and it takes weeks and gold just for adding mundane properties, up to years ( up to 55 years and 500k for a legendary item according to the DMG ) so, I don't think this is in the realm of possibilities for our characters.

finally, if you worry about your adamantine armor being obsolete, just wear a helmet and it already is since the benefit of the minor property "adamantine" is "immunity to critical hits".
too bad they choose those two armors, but I guess giving us an adamantine full plate was a bit much and the half plate isn't even ready yet.

I worry about both ...

Either Adamantine gear will look like some lowlevel weak scrap ... wich seems bad to me. :-/
Or we get our hands to incredibly powerfull and stron artefact so early in the game, so any other gear we find will be irellevant ... wich also seems bad. :-/
And the worse idea is that i may in the future Acts find "steel" helmet that will give me even better bonuses. :-/ I mean switching something so rare as Adamantine for something so Common as Steel? Ugh. :-/

The adamantine gear felt underwhelming considering what you can buy at vendors. The only positive was the scale AC 17 for STR builds.

so... the two options are :
- adamantine splint mail which is a unique recolor with some additions of the splint mail
- adamantine scale mail which is a unique recolor with some additions of the scale mail
since the splint wasn't available yet, it's rather new... the scale mail however lack the +1 that the one you can buy at the grove has.
none of them has the immunity to criticals property but there is a weird helm that does combine the two properties.

that being said, the bonus for the armors are unique (well, the idea of it is shared with all the items) and it inflicts a -1 to attack rolls for 2 to 3 turns depending on the item to the enemy.
notably, the shield applies it when the enemy misses while the armors does so when the enemy hits and the weapons apply it regardless of the result. those don't stack, only refresh

all in all, it is a nice look (I tried to apply it to other stuff but it is complicated...) and it is not like you had 4 of those. my only disappointment was that they choose my least favorite armors.
I can't decide if having a +1 to AC is better than inflicting -1 to the enemy but I guess it also helps other party members that might be targeted ?

(now that I wrote my answer, I understand that it's what you meant)

Few random thoughts about equipment.

Not enough armor variation. Many basic armors are still missing and Chain Mail isn't available early enough.

There's a lot of magical junk lying around that you never use. Lot's of items have strange conditional properties that don't really make sense. [If you heal someone] you get a poison, disengage or pull effect, [if you are below 50% hp] x happens, [if you Shove] you get +1 ac, [if the target is burning] you get +1d4 damage. Why do so many items require a condition? Call me old fashioned but I like items that are straightforward and created for a specific purpose. Why doesn't Firestoker just add 1 fire damage and have cool flaming bolts? Why doesn't Slippery Chain just give you Disengage as a Bonus Action? (Your armor giving someone else Disengage when you heal them seems really random and far removed from what an armor should be doing i.e. protecting *you* unconditionally.) Why doesn't Bracing Band just give you Advantage against being Shoved or moved? That would make more sense than being a Shove>AC buff and it would be extremely useful in BG3's pushing galore.

I would prefer less magic items that are always special and useful when you find them. There's too much trash equipment with unnecessarily complicated but weak properties and I'm no longer excited when I see a magic item.

Then there are grossly OP items, like Sapphire Spark that casually almost doubles Magic Missile damage and gives you an extra cast. No reason to cast any other level 1 spell ever again. The balance is just off.

The Adamantine equipment from the Forge are really lackluster. Adamantine Splint Mail is only good because we don't even get a basic Splint Mail. +1 armor and weapons from vendors are much better than anything you can make here.

Shadowheart's custom armor or Dark Justiciar armor don't look like Chain Shirts and they are so behind on stats you will never use them. They look like Breastplate and Half-Plate and should have those stats to be viable.

Phalar Aluve gets an Excalibur level introduction, and then it's just a vanilla +1 like the stuff you already bought from Dammon. Maybe the traders shouldn't have so many +1 items or legendary items with names?

Why do non-magical basic gauntlets or helm cost like 800 gold?

For Wizards I would like to see thematic staffs or orbs that buff your Fire Spells or your Enchantment spell DC's.

Im sorry im really not sure if i understand what are you trying to say.

That part about models i cant really coment since i didnt create Scale Mail and i was unable to google any screenshot of it. :-/
Yet i dont thing that being just recollor need to be necesarily bad thing, after all its still Scale Mail, just made of different material ... some similarity should be understandable in my honest opinion. :-/

I honestly kinda like the Adamantine material ...
It sadens me tho that having any more than single item per character seems to be wasted, concidering your comentary.

I agree they look kinda good ...
My dissapointment was in that we are unable to once again create whole set ... i dunno, maybe im the only one in this, but i just like when my character looks good, having Adamantine Armor, Steel Gloves and Leather boots ... well, it might be effective, but it dont look good. :-/

About AC +1 and armor inflicting -1 ...
Personaly i believe that -1 is better, maybe that is just my opinion and im wrong actualy ... but it seems to me that most enemies is deciding targets based on AC ... so luring them to strike you and then suffering consequences seem better to me.

I dare to disagree here ...

I mean sure, its allways easier to work with magical items that simply adds you some bonus and thats it ...
But this conditioned magical items should not dissapear, they are potentialy great if you adjust your strategy for them ...

I mean, you mentioned that Armor should be protecting its wearer ... but in such case no Supporting char have chance to get any proper gear for himself. :-/
Theese "if you heal, target gets" are perfect for supporting Clerics ... and if you combine them right, you also gets some benefits ...

I dont play Clerics often to be honest ... more like almost never.
But gear like this really makes your support class shine brighter than a sun. :3

And i think it would be shame to loose that, just so we get some dull "+something" effects. :-/

Is it even possible to create "allways useful" item? O_o
I mean it allways depends on who will get it, doesnt it?

You say there is "too much trash equipment" ... i would like to know wich you mean, since the only item i can think about is Amulet of Elemental Torment ... but that one is clearly just residue of Larian original thought to give every spell Surface Effect.

When those would be unavoidable, it would be fine to at least use it against enemies aswell.

Yup ... but i love it anyway.

This seems odd ... how is +1 for you "much better" than -1 for your enemy?
Matematicly its exactly the same, also if you manage to raise AC of your companions, you are offering tempting target for enemies that will pick their target based on AC only ... yes you can potentialy suffer one strike but after that, you are protected just the same.

O was also little dissapointed here ...

I dont recall any item with name that would give you only +1 ...
There was allways additional bonus, if item was named.

Can you elaborate?

Sice even non-magical basic helmet protects you from Crittical Hits, it kinda make sence if you ask me. :-/
Gauntlets are little odd tho.

I would LOVE that aswell. :3

Wow. I have never, not once, accepted their money. I had no idea that existed

Yeah ...
I know that feeling. I was kinda surprised too.