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Shar is an infamous god and Faerun itself is much smaller than Earth; most folks of the Realms are aware of the Mistress of the Night and her malevolent nature. If a DM or video game doesn't make such knowledge freely available up front, then a trivial Attribute or Skill roll should be adequate to address any momentary player ignorance. There are many topics that merit protracted discussion...this isn't one of them.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Yes, because no TT session ever had players with a Player Handbook, or any of the other myriad of books aimed specifically at the players, right? You must have to spend a few sessions in a row, just explaining things, since you don't require your players to have resources created specifically to prevent that. You see, the problem with trying to translate your TT experience into a video game is that someone around the table is going to have these reference books. That is specifically what they are for. I wonder, how many interruptions of gameplay does it take before your players are suggesting the new player get X, Y and/or Z books? I've played at tables where you weren't allowed to sit down if you didn't have at least a Player's Handbook.

For rules and rulings, yes, players often have books. For lore and history, no, not so much... in fact, never in the years I've been playing have I ever sat at a table where players have cracked lore books mid session, or paused to read up about a fact of the world they're in that they didn't know - not once.

The DM has done so, certainly... but never the players, and that's an important difference to remain aware of when discussion the transition from table top to video game.

If there is pertinent lore about the world, the figures in it, or the situation that it behoves players to know, and they don't, or that it is meaningful for their characters to know, and they would, then smoothly making sure that that information is understood by the people that it ought to be understood by is the role of the DM; it's a very large part of their job running the game, in fact. A DM that runs an adventure in a setting, but gives the players no information about that setting, and expects them to know about it, or else to read up about it in their own time, without being prepared to weave the sharing of the relevant information into the game space during the session is, I am terribly sorry to say, a very shitty DM.

At the table, a situation might look like this:

Quote
(DM) The rune fits, and even though you can't really make heads or tentacles about the oddly squishy console, you're pretty sure you've done something right. A moment, later, you see lines of power pulse between the console, and the pod next to it, and the warding runes dim, then go out. The emergency release gives way with a hiss, and the pod begins to open, ejecting an exhausted-looking figure onto the deck of the ship in front of you... (Jane, if you'd like to describe your character..?)

(Shadowheart's Player) So, um, you see... [player-given description follows] ... and I try to catch myself as I climb out, but it totally doesn't work, and I just tumble out and sprawl completely in a heap. You probably hear a very unlady-like curse from the ground.

(Gale's Player, amidst group chuckles) I'm going to help her up... "Easy there. You're safe, well, as safe as one can be, at least, while one is escaping from an Illithid nautiloid as it plunges out of control through the hells while being beset by Githyanki dragons, of course. I take it you would like to escape, yes? I'm Gale. A pleasure to make your rescue."

(Shadow's Player) I wave him off and get up. "I... I thought I was going to die there. Thank you... and I really hope that if you've got the time to flirt, then you've also got a plan for getting us out of here? I'm fine... Call me Shadowheart, but we should move and talk, we don't have any time to waste."

(Gale's Player) (Was I flirting?)
(Shadow's Player) (That was totally flirting)

(Dm, clearing their throat through the giggles) Gale, as you attempt to help Shadowheart to her feet, you eye catches on the circlet she's wearing; it's a diadem of a slender, graceful design, clearly made to display its centrepiece prominently, which looks like-

(Shadowheart's player, quickly) Oh! I wouldn't still be wearing it, would I?

(Dm) Were you wearing it when you were taken?

(Shadow's Player) ....Yeah. Um, could I have tried to snatch it off and hide it when I was climbing out?

(Dm) Hmm... a little late, but okay I'll give you that this time... Give me a slight of hand check; your character's pretty out of it, and if you only thought of that now, then Shadowheart might not have the wherewithal either.

(Shadow's Player) Okay... I'm decent at that... Awww!"
(Dm) hmm?
(Shadow's Player) ... seven.

(DM, double checking Gale's passive perception) Okay, So. Gale, as you're helping her up, you do in fact notice her hurriedly trying to remove and hide the diadem I described before - it's partially because she tries to do so, with a sudden urgency, that you notice it, really.

(Gale's Player) You were about to describe the setting?

(DM) Right. She does whisk the piece of jewellery off and tucks it away before you get a really good look, but in the glimpse that you do get, you're fairly sure that the central focus of the piece was a smooth, flat black disc, devoid of other details.

(Gale's Player) Anything significant about that that I'd know of?

(DM) Sure, give me a religion check.
(Gale's Player) ... seventeen

(DM) So, you do recognise it, or at least, you recognise what it might be. It could just be an innocent piece of jewellery, but a flat black circle like that, as the main feature on a head piece like that? Yeah, that's probably an icon for a deity, and you know which one. Now, Gale, you grew up in Waterdeep, but you've been all over as well and you've learned a lot, especially about the histories of the deities that have anything to do with the weave, so, your mind jumps directly to Shar. A plain black circle, usually bordered in purple but often not, is Shar's symbol, and you know a fair amount about Lady of Loss. You would know that Shar is regarded as the twin sister and opposing force to Selune, the moon-maiden, and that they are both greater deities, and some of the very oldest deities that exist in the realms. Your knowledge begins with the fact that it was the conflict between Selune, who wished to bring light and warmth into the world and to allow Chauntea to coax life as we know it into the world, and Shar, who felt betrayed by what she saw as her sister's attack on the cold and dark - her very essence - which led to the creation of Mystral, and the birth of the weave. Your particular research suggests that particularly favoured followers of Shar are suspected of being able to tapping the shadow weave for their magic instead. Shar and Selune have been in conflict ever since this first schism, all throughout the history of the realms, and for her part, Shar wishes to extinguish all light and warmth, and bring about an end to life as we know it in the multiverse. She's a pretty nasty, dark deity.

(Shadow's player, in good humour) (That's slander!)

(DM, continuing) You know that worship of the evil goddess is viewed in much the same way as worship of any truly evil deity, and worse than many - her followers often resort violent and dark means to forcefully compel others to convert to her following, or break their spirits to the point that they accept her. Few would admit to following or worshipping her openly, unless they intended that you not be able to tell anyone else... Shar herself is known to come to people who are at their lowest and most vulnerable, offering the solace of oblivion when it seems the most appealing, and binding them to her through the forgetting of all else. She's also known as the Dark Lady, the Mistress of Pain and the Goddess of Loss, or sometimes by those speaking more favourably of her, as the Nightsinger.

So, that's what you would know. What you see is just a very nicely made circlet. Your mind immediately jumps to Shar's symbol, and it very well could be that, but you only caught a glimpse, and it could potentially just be an innocuous and unfortunate similarity. You can't be certain.

(Gale's Player) But she did try to hide it suddenly...

(Shadow's Player, rueful giggles, face on desk) (This is off to a good start... gods I'm so bad at this...)
(Gale's Player) (It's fine, I'm sure your creepy goddess will just wipe my memory or something)
(Shadow's Player) (Shut up...)

(Dm) Anyway... Gale, that's what you see. Shadowheart, you manage to hide your circlet, but you're not sure if you got away with it.

(Gale's Player) An interesting piece, don't want to get it dirty, I imagine? Some personal significance, perhaps?
(Shadow's Player, game face back on) I know you rescued me, but that's really none of your business. We have more important things to deal with right now, don't you think? (I grab my pack and other things and start walking... you said there was a... sphincter... north of the console, right?)
(Gale's Players) We shall have to have talk about that later, 'Shadowheart'. For now... If my knowledge of Illithid nautilods serves me correctly, and I'm sure you'll find it does... then we actually need to head this way. The control helms on these are supposedly located above and forward of the central spiral, which unless I miss my guess, we are in the heart of right now...

(DM) As you're saying this, you hear the scamper of small clawed feet in the tunnel you came from before. Another one of those creatures, the walking brains, scuttles into the room - Shadowheart, you've seen one of them moving through the chamber before, but it's worse now that there's not a layer of glass between you and it. Gale, this one is like the rest - it seems to ignore you, and instead runs up to the central console, near the strangely pulsating column in the middle of the room. One tendril whips up and depresses a button, but as it does, the brain flinches back suddenly, shrinking down, and runs in a small circle, seemingly... panicked? A hum of energy flows through the column, but then crackles and seems to burst wild. The figures on the slabs all around you lurch up, moving, though still clearly not properly aware. Each of them begins to scream, and turn milky, unseeing eyes towards you both. You hear a thin series of discordant voices in your minds - yes, you hear it too, Shadowheart. "They are damaged! Broken, not working! They're Wrong! please Stop them..." The little brain backs away a step as these five figures, now on their feet, lurch and flail towards you, still screaming. I'd like you both to roll initiative."

The game is our DM: it is responsible for making sure we have the information we need to understand and enjoy the content that it is presenting; it cannot ask or expect us to go do side research just to understand the story it's letting us explore - if it foists that work onto the player, then it's being a very shitty DM.

Last edited by Niara; 30/10/21 04:39 PM.
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They have many instances in the game already where Arcana and History rolls are made to tell you things your character knows; things that aren't even that important to the overall story. That's why those skills are there. Why are some making such a big deal out of people wanting the same thing for information on Shar, a MAJOR goddess in the EA story who is THE goddess for one of the origin characters? We're not even talking a dissertation. Just a roll and a few dialogue lines. 1 or 2 sentences.

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Since when has Shar been a major goddess? Since Baldur's Gate II? Since some licensed novel series? I've only known Shar as a minor deity, and while my FR knowledge is unsought for, and an edition or two out of step, none of that changes the fact that the story the game is telling trumps it. If Shar is a minor deity, or a forgotten deity or if nobody recognizes her iconography on sight, so be it.

I think the truth of the matter is , the DM considers this issue to be resolved so early on that it isn't a big issue for them.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Since when has Shar been a major goddess? Since Baldur's Gate II? Since some licensed novel series? I've only known Shar as a minor deity, and while my FR knowledge is unsought for, and an edition or two out of step, none of that changes the fact that the story the game is telling trumps it. If Shar is a minor deity, or a forgotten deity or if nobody recognizes her iconography on sight, so be it.

...what? Shar has been a Greater Power/Deity since the days of AD&D 2e (circa 1996).

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Not in my Deities & Demigods, but I haven't looked at it in a while

...what?

Last edited by Sozz; 31/10/21 02:25 AM. Reason: edited for sass
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https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Shar
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Shar, the Mistress of the Night, was the goddess of darkness and the caverns of Faerûn, as well as a neutral evil greater deity.
I assume became a major deity around/after the Time of Troubles (1358 DR) and when she "absorbed most of the divinity of her son Mask (a god)" in 1374 DR, created the Shadow Weave (sometime), helped kill Mystra to cause the Spellplague and created an entire plane of existence - Shadowfell - in/around 1385 DR. Those were some majorly impactful events and growth of personal power. (BGII took place in 1369 DR.)

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That's all interesting, but without any context for how the world views these events I don't know how to treat them in-character. I know there was a reboot (or two?) the board was wiped, gods died, dead gods lived, and gods who where killed lived again but different etc. etc. because I know how reboots work these days I know that all the information, while probably in a book at HQ somewhere, isn't given wholesale to us.

Now what this means as far as BG:3, I don't know if people are gnashing there teeth and tearing out there hair about the mutability of reality or if there's a Cthulhu-esque veil between the nonsense and them, how much does the mundane "man on the street" know about such things?

Let's use Baldur's Gate as an example, the entire plot revolves around the death of the god of murder. Here's what I knew about Bhaal at the beginning of Baldur's Gate: He's the dead god of murder; here's what I knew about Bhaal at the end of Shadow of Amn: He's the dead god of murder who "got around" in an attempt to escape death. something something Cyric.

Last edited by Sozz; 31/10/21 02:44 AM.
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Originally Posted by Sozz
Not in my Deities & Demigods, but I haven't looked at it in a while

...what?

Shar is not in Deities & Demigods.

Originally Posted by Sozz
That's all interesting, but without any context for how the world views these events I don't know how to treat them in-character. I know there was a reboot (or two?) the board was wiped, gods died, dead gods lived, and gods who where killed lived again but different etc. etc. because I know how reboots work these days I know that all the information, while probably in a book at HQ somewhere, isn't given wholesale to us.

Now what this means as far as BG:3, I don't know if people are gnashing there teeth and tearing out there hair about the mutability of reality or if there's a Cthulhu-esque veil between the nonsense and them, how much does the mundane "man on the street" know about such things?

She has always been a Greater Deity. People know her, even if they aren't aware of each and every deed of hers; ergo, the Player Character should be aware of her. Please stop.

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I guess my specific issue with this is the gamey term "Greater Deity" I also don't really know how that translates into common awareness. I'll go with you that most people will have heard of Shar, especially if she ended reality at one point, but from there what does that entail, especially for evil deities

I would like to add that this wasn't the main point of my earlier post
Originally Posted by Sozz
...the story the game is telling trumps it. If Shar is a minor deity, or a forgotten deity or if nobody recognizes her iconography on sight, so be it.

I think the truth of the matter is , the DM considers this issue to be resolved so early on that it isn't a big issue for them.

this was

Last edited by Sozz; 31/10/21 02:59 AM.
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I'm just going to repeat this question: "Why are some making such a big deal out of people wanting a Religion dice roll that would potentially provide basic information on Shar, a MAJOR goddess in the EA story who is THE goddess for one of the origin characters? We're not even talking a dissertation. Just a roll and a few dialogue lines. 1 or 2 sentences."

You find a book called, "The Unclaimed." Gale says, "This appears to be a book on Shar. She's an evil goddess of darkness and loss who likes to torture people and such. Very nasty group of zealots; a secret society of evil. Well, that is, that's what some believe."

"And what do you believe?" Shadowheart asks him.

Gale shrugs. "Hmmm. I believe that people have many perceptions about many things that aren't necessarily true."

Insight roll is made for the MC. Success means that you spot that he gives her a strange smile as if he is sharing secret with her.

Or maybe this scene happens when you find the Selune statue in the owlbear cave, and it's played out between Shadowheart and Lae'zel. Or maybe Shadowheart's not there, and it's played out between Lae'zel and Wyll, and there is no insight roll made.

Or maybe the scene doesn't happen at all and it's just the Narrator saying, "This appears to be related to Selune (or Shar depending on the item found)." Game rolls a religion roll for you, like it does Arcana and such at various times during the game. You succeed. Narrator says, "Selune is the goddess of the moon; a good goddess who is adored by many. She has an evil twin sister named Shar that is feared and hated; goddess of darkness and loss."

Just SOMEthing simple to give the player some sort of idea who these characters are so they don't have to stop playing, pull up the internet on their phone, pull up some details about Shar or Selune amidst the sea of information out there, etc.

It's ALL we're asking. So why are people so opposed to something so small that won't take but maybe 10 seconds of gameplay and it would be totally skippable if you don't want it there?

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I love the sound of companion characters having independent skill checks, I also think that it's absurd for a cleric of Selune or Shar to be blindsided by this, clerics of Shar especially should float some kind of secret handshake immediately anyway.

As for a religion skill checks, sure, if it makes sense for Larian's world. Or better yet some kind of prologue to acclimate you to the world, but that's a dead horse by now.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
As for a religion skill checks, sure, if it makes sense for Larian's world. Or better yet some kind of prologue to acclimate you to the world, but that's a dead horse by now.

This is not "Larian's world".

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I guess I should have said Larian's story, would that have been better?

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Originally Posted by Sozz
I guess I should have said Larian's story, would that have been better?

It is more accurate, yes. Still, that decision (i.e., making Shar a relatively unknown quantity "just because") is jarring when placed alongside three plus decades worth of lore.

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Maybe or it can be a recontextualizing of what that notoriety really means.

Have you ever heard of the Cult of Isis? It was one of the largest and most successful mystery cults of the Roman Empire, a mystery cult is how I view a lot of the evil deities "churches" . The cult of Isis had front facing iconography to be sure, but on the inside it becomes progressively more obscure, how much you know about Isis is commensurate to how far you've been inducted into the mysteries, so a cult could have a High visibility but seriously low information footprint.

I guess the Freemasons would've been a good example too

Last edited by Sozz; 31/10/21 04:43 AM. Reason: KISS
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Play through Grymforge.

Roll made. "These guys on the ground look like Sharran. Their wearing armor of Shar.". These crossbows look like Sharran crossbows."

Why have these rolls in Grymforge but it's not okay to have something in the beginning?

BTW.
Big black circles just like Shadowheart's armor on those Dark Justiciars of Ketheric.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
I guess I should have said Larian's story, would that have been better?

Not really - If Larian defines all metallic dragons as scions of evil illithid experiments and treats that as a 'fact', people will baulk. This is not their setting or their world, and they have a duty to show respect and awareness of the setting in which they are telling their story. The more elements of that they disregard or diverge from well established cores, the less appealing, less satisfying and more ridiculous their game will look, and the less likely that anyone will be happy to call it a D&D game.

In this case, as the conversation has discussed realms-shaking events, and the deity's status (Greater Deity, which Shar HAS been since her conception, even back as far as fist edition, in fact, is not a 'gamey' term - it's an actual in-universe definition that has a tangible meaning, part of which includes facets not just of the diety's strength but also of their presence in the realm, their spread of influence and followers, and the pervasiveness of common knowledge related to them)... it's not really a question that's open for debate about whether your average joe-farmer knows at least a little something about who this deity is: They Do. In all but the most exceptional of circumstances, that's just a fact of the realms lore that Larian should be respecting.

Last edited by Niara; 31/10/21 04:50 AM.
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Originally Posted by Niara
it's not really a question that's open for debate about whether your average joe-farmer knows at least a little something about who this deity is: They Do.

Parents probably tell their children to not play outside after dark because "Shar will take them".

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@Niara In regard to the first point I guess I'm not so married to continuity, especially in universes with so many hands in the cookie jar.

As per my previous comment, what exactly is entailed in the term "Greater Deity" is open for debate, it's mechanical meaning on our end as interpreted into in-universe information.

@GM4Him I haven't made it to the new area yet (I've been dragging my feet) but I did see a video of this scene, it's very interesting with regards to everything we've been talking about, but what I haven't seen is what happens if you reach this point without having revealed that Shadowheart is a Sharran, is that possible?

For instance, the events of Descent into Avernus appear to play an not inconsequential role in BG:3's story, how would you take it if Larian rejiggers the story, say Zariel's fall is again retold, or the events took place at a different time, or Duke Raven---whatever died, or was never taken etc. How far does the continuity matter to you, I know you have a limit, it's just a matter of where, and if the retcon is good enough for you.

Last edited by Sozz; 31/10/21 05:12 AM. Reason: All I'm saying is we should be able to play Hobbits again
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