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Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Niara
To be fair, there's someone I know who likes Astarion for exactly the same reason that I don't ^.^

I find it interesting that you and Fylimar find Astarion two-dimensional. Did you guys do the speak to the dead on Galandrel if you chose to not betray Astarion? There is some interesting information about who really wants Astarion. It makes me wonder how important could Astarion be? I also think Larian favors Astarion as he is so far the only who has a love song in the game which plays during camp. It’s called “I want to live.” The composer liked everyone’s comment that mentioned Astarion, that’s the conclusion that people came with about the song being for Astarion.

Being important doesn't make a character interesting - those are two different things.

Curious, if something or someone is being shown as having some type of importance to a story, you don't find that to be interesting?

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Niara
To be fair, there's someone I know who likes Astarion for exactly the same reason that I don't ^.^

I find it interesting that you and Fylimar find Astarion two-dimensional. Did you guys do the speak to the dead on Galandrel if you chose to not betray Astarion? There is some interesting information about who really wants Astarion. It makes me wonder how important could Astarion be? I also think Larian favors Astarion as he is so far the only who has a love song in the game which plays during camp. It’s called “I want to live.” The composer liked everyone’s comment that mentioned Astarion, that’s the conclusion that people came with about the song being for Astarion.

Being important doesn't make a character interesting - those are two different things.

Curious, if something or someone is being shown as having some type of importance to a story, you don't find that to be interesting?

Why are you insisting, that we like Astarion?
So, no, if that character is Astarion, then I have zero interest in his importance in the story. I hope, that was clear?

Last edited by fylimar; 02/11/21 01:18 PM.

"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

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Originally Posted by fylimar
Why are you insisting, that we like Astarion?
So, no, if that character is Astarion, then I have zero interest in his importance in the story. And now please don't ask again. I hope, that was clear?

First of all do not accuse me of something that I am not doing. I'm not insisting on anything. If you just don't want to have a discussion, that's fine. If you don't like Astarion that is your prerogative but don't be so dismissive when someone is asking to know more. That's the point of a discussion.

Last edited by Lady Avyna; 02/11/21 01:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by fylimar
Why are you insisting, that we like Astarion?
So, no, if that character is Astarion, then I have zero interest in his importance in the story. And now please don't ask again. I hope, that was clear?

First of all do not accuse me of something that I am not doing. I'm not insisting on anything. If you just don't want to have a discussion, that's fine. If you don't like Astarion that is your prerogative but don't be so dismissive when someone is asking to know more. That's the point of a discussion.

I already gave my reasons and yes, I could go on in length and detail about this, since I'm especially allergic of the vampire cliche that came up with the romantasies, starting with Twilight (one might even bring Anne Rice in, but imo, she did a better job in making the vampires interesting and real characters, despite loosing the plot after a few books). But I don't think, that that would be beneficial. I only end up making Astarion fans mad and everyone is entitled to their favorite character. I'm perfectly aware, that Shadowheart is a bit of a cliche too - I call it the bitchywitch trope (I'm pretty sure, there is a more official term for that) - the worst of them is Morrigan from Dragon Age. The bitchy female companion, who knows everything better and doesn't take any advise basically. I just happen to like Shadowheart depsite this. And I think, someone above mentioned, that they like Astarion for the same reason, I hate him, so tastes are different.


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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Niara
To be fair, there's someone I know who likes Astarion for exactly the same reason that I don't ^.^

I find it interesting that you and Fylimar find Astarion two-dimensional. Did you guys do the speak to the dead on Galandrel if you chose to not betray Astarion? There is some interesting information about who really wants Astarion. It makes me wonder how important could Astarion be? I also think Larian favors Astarion as he is so far the only who has a love song in the game which plays during camp. It’s called “I want to live.” The composer liked everyone’s comment that mentioned Astarion, that’s the conclusion that people came with about the song being for Astarion.

"I want to live" seems like a title that would fit for all of the party characters given that the main driving cobflict is "don't let the tadpole kill you". Does it always play during camp or just when Astarion is relevant? Does it only play during romantic scenes with him, or does it play for everyone?

And about the bolded part -- I don't understand at all what you're saying there, could you rephrase that for me?

Originally Posted by Niara
I generally deal with the hunter amicably and it doesn't come to a fight, though the times when it does, SwD considers you the killer, even if you didn't participate directly; how do you see that one?

I think, but I'm not sure because my memory is hazy, that even if you kill an NPC you can cast Speak With Dead on them with a character other than your main one. In my previous playthrough I killed the ogre-bugbear couple and saw that the bugbear was SwD-able, but he refused to speak with my character because killer. But when I reloaded and tried with another character I did get to have a talk with him. I think.

Originally Posted by ALexws
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
It makes me wonder how important could Astarion be?

Probably more than we think. There is one scene that he is trying to figure out the meaning of scars on his back. And it's a confirmation from Astarian that Cazador carves them on his back. And turns out it's a part of an infernal pact with the devil. Consider we actually have dealt with things from Nine Hell more than once in Act 1.

That makes me wonder, if we take the hearsay as true that Larian said they developed all origins in twos (like Laessie and Shadowheart are obviously counterparts and relevant to each other's story) if Astarion might be Wyll's story partner rather than Karlach (who I had previously assumed it was because of the obvious fiendish connection). Astarion I had thought previously would be partnered with the werewolf (because curses) or Minsc (because his BG2 favoured enemy was vampires).


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Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by fylimar
Why are you insisting, that we like Astarion?
So, no, if that character is Astarion, then I have zero interest in his importance in the story. And now please don't ask again. I hope, that was clear?

First of all do not accuse me of something that I am not doing. I'm not insisting on anything. If you just don't want to have a discussion, that's fine. If you don't like Astarion that is your prerogative but don't be so dismissive when someone is asking to know more. That's the point of a discussion.

I already gave my reasons and yes, I could go on in length and detail about this, since I'm especially allergic of the vampire cliche that came up with the romantasies, starting with Twilight (one might even bring Anne Rice in, but imo, she did a better job in making the vampires interesting and real characters, despite loosing the plot after a few books). But I don't think, that that would be beneficial. I only end up making Astarion fans mad and everyone is entitled to their favorite character. I'm perfectly aware, that Shadowheart is a bit of a cliche too - I call it the bitchywitch trope (I'm pretty sure, there is a more official term for that) - the worst of them is Morrigan from Dragon Age. The bitchy female companion, who knows everything better and doesn't take any advise basically. I just happen to like Shadowheart depsite this. And I think, someone above mentioned, that they like Astarion for the same reason, I hate him, so tastes are different.

There is nothing wrong with that. It's perfectly fine. Like you said we all have different tastes.

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Gale is funny on purpose and crazy powerful. His story is far fetched, but the overall plot isn't that grounded in the first place. Though he could be less picky with magic item consumption, he has the most interesting arc in the evil playthrough. He matches my penchant for uncovering secrets. Rating : 5 out of 5 void bubbles.

Wyll is funny despite himself. His bravado is amusing and he matches my in-game instinct to murder baddies and save their victims. Winner of the worst kept secret award. The true mystery is how he finds himself training young tieflings so quickly after the nautiloïd crash. Rating : 4 out of 5 eyeballs.

Lae'zel is funny looking, which isn't a big deal except when she suggests sexual intercourse. (Doesn't her kind lay eggs or something?) That aside, she's the only one with a plan for the tadpole, which she will readily point out as aggravatingly as possible. Although she matches my desire to have a melee combatant in the party, she's the main reason I play with the sound off. Rating : 3 out of 5 random apostrophes.

Shadowheart isn't funny. She will show up in the story no matter what the player does short of brutal murder. Completely outclassed by Gale, her only function is to carry around the MacGuffin and scowl the whole time. She could be advantageously replaced by a back-pack with a frowny face painted on. Rating : 1 out of 5 dud reveals.

Astarion can eat a bag of garlic. It's not that anyone can hide as a bonus action, or pick locks with ease, or generally drink his milkshake. It's the camp scene during the tiefling party where he calls the wine cheap swill. Shove off, man! Five days ago you tried to slit my throat, and now you criticize the free booze I give you to celebrate an epic battle in which you took no part?! Rating : 0 out of 5 "vampires suck" jokes.

Last edited by Flooter; 02/11/21 02:35 PM.

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@Dexai

The reason I said the song might be about Astarion is because the composer liked the comments where people believed the song is about Astarion. It's meant to be a love song. It does play during camp and when you speak with Astarion in camp. I haven't noticed if the song plays while speaking to other companions. Also, what bold part are you talking about?

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I seem to like the 5 principle characters based almost entirely on the first impression and their initial presentation. I find it maddening for that reason, where Larian has backtracked on this to make their existing characters more palatable, when they should instead be offering new characters.

For example, I like Lae'zel because she is "haughty, condescending in the extreme, has a superiority complex a mile high [...] never treats the player character with anything even approaching basic decency or respect" and add to that being generally sour and dismissive of everyone, xenophobic, fanatical, 'twice as ugly' by the general standards etc.

I like that she has her own belicose lietmotif, which is established during the opening trailer (using that Wojciech Kilar rip-off, reminiscent of the opening sequence to Coppola's Dracula) and then again during her introduction on the Nautiloid, which was stronger prior to patch 6. I also like that her first reaction to me is to scowl and call me an abomination, then threaten to end me. Essentially a perfect one note Gith fighter trope.

When Larian changes this stuff to make her softer, give her more depth or layering at the outset, or because they think doing so will make her a 'better companion' to satisfy the various people who griped that none of the companions were 'friendly enough', I find that pretty frustrating. Lae'zel does't want to be our friend. She tells us as much verbatim when pressed, just in case there was any confusion on our part.

The first impression is usually a zero sum game. If someone doesn't like Lae'zel's character, the better solution in an RPG is to offer a different companion character, as an alternative fighter who fits the other bill better, not to change Lae'zel.

The same will hold for each of these 5 characters. They are all 2 dimensional, and I'm sure they will all have their fans based on whichever 2 dimensions the player finds most amusing or endearing in a crpg one note. Larian's principle failing here is to think that they can cover all their bases with a fab 5. That's just woefully inadequate. You can barely get there with a fab 15, and even then you're going to swing and miss more than half the time.

They should not have opened like this almost exclusively with their grey characters, or 'their villains' or their 'evil path' companion NPCs, whatever they're meant to be from Larian's cryptic promos. That just assumes way too much discernment on the part of the goody goody and redemption favoring audience to hold up for a year. Most players want to be heroes, not villains. And for those who do want to play villains, not having any heroes for the point of contrast just diminishes that experience too.

The ready solution is not to bank so hard on developed characters and instead provide more variety and greater extremes. Most of the initial reactions can probably be reduced to 'I like character X, because I find their model/voice attractive' for either predictable or peculiar reasons, and that impression carries or falls based on superficial quick read reasons.

It's only because we're being forced to roll with such a light crew that half these characters even get the time of day. From a telemetry type standpoint they should have caste a wider net first, then developed the characters further based on which first impressions were drawing the strongest responses. In other words taking an additive approach to continued characterization rather than a transformative one.

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Originally Posted by Flooter
Gale is funny on purpose and crazy powerful. His story is far fetched, but the overall plot isn't that grounded in the first place. Though he could be less picky with magic item consumption, he has the most interesting arc in the evil playthrough. He matches my penchant for uncovering secrets. Rating : 5 out of 5 void bubbles.

Wyll is funny despite himself. His bravado is amusing and he matches my in-game instinct to murder baddies and save their victimes. Winner of the worst kept secret award. The true mystery is how he finds himself training young tieflings so quickly after the nautiloïd crash. Rating : 4 out of 5 eyeballs.

Lae'zel is funny looking, which isn't a big deal except when she suggests sexual intercourse. (Doesn't her kind lay eggs or something?) That aside, she's the only one with a plan for the tadpole, which she will readily point out as aggravatingly as possible. Although she matches my desire to have a melee combatant in the party, she's the main reason I play with the sound off. Rating : 3 out of 5 random apostrophes.

Shadowheart isn't funny. She will show up in the story no matter what the player does short of brutal murder. Completely outclassed by Gale, her only function is to carry around the MacGuffin and scowl the whole time. She could be advantageously replaced by a back-pack with a frowny face painted on. Rating : 1 out of 5 dud reveals.

Astarion can eat a bag of garlic. It's not that anyone can hide as a bonus action, or pick locks with ease, or generally drink his milkshake. It's the camp scene during the tiefling party where he calls the wine cheap swill. Shove off, man! Five days ago you tried to slit my throat, and now you criticize the free booze I give you to celebrate an epic battle in which you took no part?! Rating : 0 out of 5 "vampires suck" jokes.

HAHAHA!!! I like your responses especially about Lae'zel laying eggs. Thanks for the laugh.

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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
I seem to like the 5 principle characters based almost entirely on the first impression and their initial presentation. I find it maddening for that reason, where Larian has backtracked on this to make their existing characters more palatable, when they should instead be offering new characters.

For example, I like Lae'zel because she is "haughty, condescending in the extreme, has a superiority complex a mile high [...] never treats the player character with anything even approaching basic decency or respect" and add to that being generally sour and dismissive of everyone, xenophobic, fanatical, 'twice as ugly' by the general standards etc.

I like that she has her own belicose lietmotif, which is established during the opening trailer (using that Wojciech Kilar rip-off, reminiscent of the opening sequence to Coppola's Dracula) and then again during her introduction on the Nautiloid, which was stronger prior to patch 6. I also like that her first reaction to me is to scowl and call me an abomination, then threaten to end me. Essentially a perfect one note Gith fighter trope.

When Larian changes this stuff to make her softer, give her more depth or layering at the outset, or because they think doing so will make her a 'better companion' to satisfy the various people who griped that none of the companions were 'friendly enough', I find that pretty frustrating. Lae'zel does't want to be our friend. She tells us as much verbatim when pressed, just in case there was any confusion on our part.

The first impression is usually a zero sum game. If someone doesn't like Lae'zel's character, the better solution in an RPG is to offer a different companion character, as an alternative fighter who fits the other bill better, not to change Lae'zel.

The same will hold for each of these 5 characters. They are all 2 dimensional, and I'm sure they will all have their fans based on whichever 2 dimensions the player finds most amusing or endearing in a crpg one note. Larian's principle failing here is to think that they can cover all their bases with a fab 5. That's just woefully inadequate. You can barely get there with a fab 15, and even then you're going to swing and miss more than half the time.

They should not have opened like this almost exclusively with their grey characters, or 'their villains' or their 'evil path' companion NPCs, whatever they're meant to be from Larian's cryptic promos. That just assumes way too much discernment on the part of the goody goody and redemption favoring audience to hold up for a year. Most players want to be heroes, not villains. And for those who do want to play villains, not having any heroes for the point of contrast just diminishes that experience too.

The ready solution is not to bank so hard on developed characters and instead provide more variety and greater extremes. Most of the initial reactions can probably be reduced to 'I like character X, because I find their model/voice attractive' for either predictable or peculiar reasons, and that impression carries or falls based on superficial quick read reasons.

It's only because we're being forced to roll with such a light crew that half these characters even get the time of day. From a telemetry type standpoint they should have caste a wider net first, then developed the characters further based on which first impressions were drawing the strongest responses. In other words taking an additive approach to continued characterization rather than a transformative one.

Interesting response in regards to Larian's character development. I'm curious to know which characters do you like or not based on what has been shown to you so far.

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Circling back to the original post, here are my views. I'm sure I'm just as wrong as everyone else. ;-)

Lae'zel is an auto include if I don't make a warrior. Despite her stats not lining up with her experiences, she is quite handy with 2 handed wpns and her batter with Shadowheart, Gale, and Wyll are quite entertaining. Looking forward when we can have all 4 in the same party.

Shadowheart is, by far, the companion that Larian has put the most time and thought into. I enjoy that fact that when you listen to the undertones of her conversation with you and others, she seems to want to come off cold but good at the same time. The fact that I can spec her for tanking or ranged, or even both makes her quite valuable to me.

Gale is a blow hard, but he so wants to be your friend, because of the power the tadpoles represent and the fact that you are driven to get to a cure, which means adventuring and finding powerful items. I do enjoy his constant questioning of the other companions and the fact that between him and Wyll, you will always have a moral compass around. At just shy of 350 hrs playing, he's the 1 of the 4 that gets left uninitiated the most due to his high maintenance cost. But, when I feel the need to have a wizard in the party and not run one as my pc, I use him.

Wyll is an auto include for me. As others have arleady pointed out in this thread, and I have in others, he is the classic redemption story. A nonamed worthless noble's son who gets promoted based of societal statis as opposed to working for it, makes bad calls and gets his people almost wiped out. In desperation, makes a deal with a devil who hears his vow for revenge, and immediately starts "saving" others from the same fate his people endured. His fame grows quickly into a legend, "the Blade of Frontiers" despite the fact that he is the son of a noname noble. He sees you as a way to be rid of the tadpole and legitimately become the hero that his legend says he is. When he does finally open up about his patron, and the fact that she's been captured and will release him from his pact with her is a very compelling reason, for me, to see it through. BTW- with her, his patron, being infected and taken to the moonrise towers, you do know who the main boss fight for act 1 is. As I enjoy playing the "face", he will probably be my choice to run through the game when we can choose existing companions as our PC. (sorry, this one went long)

Astarian is Carlisle from Twilight before he saw the light, that's it, story over. I don't enjoy he personal cut scenes, his conversations with the character, no matter what level of approval you get. His incessant need to have sex with you, no matter your approval level is so annoying that I avoid the conversation if he is still alive at the time. With Shadowheart having the urchin background, he is the useless one, for me at least. Could go on, but I don't think it's needed.

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
@Dexai

The reason I said the song might be about Astarion is because the composer liked the comments where people believed the song is about Astarion. It's meant to be a love song. It does play during camp and when you speak with Astarion in camp. I haven't noticed if the song plays while speaking to other companions. Also, what bold part are you talking about?

The bolded part was the part of your post that I had bolded (made thicc) when I quoted it, so you would easier be able to tell which part I found confusing.

But I got my explanation from you anyway so thanks for that wink


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Originally Posted by Barverak
Circling back to the original post, here are my views. I'm sure I'm just as wrong as everyone else. ;-)

Lae'zel is an auto include if I don't make a warrior. Despite her stats not lining up with her experiences, she is quite handy with 2 handed wpns and her batter with Shadowheart, Gale, and Wyll are quite entertaining. Looking forward when we can have all 4 in the same party.

Shadowheart is, by far, the companion that Larian has put the most time and thought into. I enjoy that fact that when you listen to the undertones of her conversation with you and others, she seems to want to come off cold but good at the same time. The fact that I can spec her for tanking or ranged, or even both makes her quite valuable to me.

Gale is a blow hard, but he so wants to be your friend, because of the power the tadpoles represent and the fact that you are driven to get to a cure, which means adventuring and finding powerful items. I do enjoy his constant questioning of the other companions and the fact that between him and Wyll, you will always have a moral compass around. At just shy of 350 hrs playing, he's the 1 of the 4 that gets left uninitiated the most due to his high maintenance cost. But, when I feel the need to have a wizard in the party and not run one as my pc, I use him.

Wyll is an auto include for me. As others have arleady pointed out in this thread, and I have in others, he is the classic redemption story. A nonamed worthless noble's son who gets promoted based of societal statis as opposed to working for it, makes bad calls and gets his people almost wiped out. In desperation, makes a deal with a devil who hears his vow for revenge, and immediately starts "saving" others from the same fate his people endured. His fame grows quickly into a legend, "the Blade of Frontiers" despite the fact that he is the son of a noname noble. He sees you as a way to be rid of the tadpole and legitimately become the hero that his legend says he is. When he does finally open up about his patron, and the fact that she's been captured and will release him from his pact with her is a very compelling reason, for me, to see it through. BTW- with her, his patron, being infected and taken to the moonrise towers, you do know who the main boss fight for act 1 is. As I enjoy playing the "face", he will probably be my choice to run through the game when we can choose existing companions as our PC. (sorry, this one went long)

Astarian is Carlisle from Twilight before he saw the light, that's it, story over. I don't enjoy he personal cut scenes, his conversations with the character, no matter what level of approval you get. His incessant need to have sex with you, no matter your approval level is so annoying that I avoid the conversation if he is still alive at the time. With Shadowheart having the urchin background, he is the useless one, for me at least. Could go on, but I don't think it's needed.

Thanks for your response, although I am curious about your take on Astarion. Why do you see him as Carlisle from Twilight? I would venture he seems more like Lestat. Also your take on his need for sex, I've seen some instances where he's dismissive of you if you have a low approval. He rejects you.

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Interesting response in regards to Larian's character development. I'm curious to know which characters do you like or not based on what has been shown to you so far.

The challenge I find (for all these characters, in equal measure) is that the moviegoer in me feels one way about them and the d&d player in me feels another. I like all 5 actually, depending on what Character I want to play for myself, conveniently in the same order in which they are presented during the game - since I tend to lead Villain and then follow up later with Hero lol. But when I say I like them, I mean I like them primarily as sketches or draft concepts. I enjoy character vignettes in D&D crpg companions, with gaps left over to fill in with the imagination. After a certain point, the more fully realized the companion character becomes (sans input from me) the worse they function for that purpose, and the greater the need becomes for additional characters to then service the imaginative vignette developing desire.

To imagine that it's just going to be this (+3 more) is what worries me most. It feels like that's the kiss of death for this kind of party based crpg, and the shelf life will be cut short in it's prime. Most of the impressions or feedback I offer when it comes to BG3, comes from a perspective like 'what does it actually take to make a game that can endure for two decades? like Baldur's Gate did?' I see this as substantially different in a CRPG than what it takes to make an enduring novella or a classic film or an endlessly rewatchable cartoon, and so my attitude towards characterization is pretty different in that context. My solution for BG3 would be this but in a somewhat more polished and measured (read limited) final presentation, because I think that would provide the requisite scaffolding for the long game here - while not necessarily dethroning the fab 5 from their pride of place. Sadly, I suspect that for each new Origin Companion they add to the game (1 at a time as seems likely) that groans of disappointment will follow from many quarters for the new characters not living up to one's highest hopes for them. We haven't had any added yet, so when it eventually happens (with Minsc or Karlach or whoever), you can just predict the collective sighs of "meh" that will attend to their big debuts.

The issue is quantitative as much as qualitative, and the quantity is strikingly low right now. So if someone likes Shadowheart cause she bitchywitchy and someone else doesn't like her for that same reason, and if Larian's solution is to just continually vacillate and iterate with each new build to make Shadowheart somehow both (and everything in between) - then it morphs from a "choose your own adventure" story into a "choose your own chimera companion from the big list of 5" story, and that will be weaksauce for sure.

The quickest response I can give is that I love all 5, and I also hate all 5, and the only way I can think of to make them better at this point is to leave them alone, and focus on other stuff before it's too late lol

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]


Ps. Apologies in advance if that pushed a little off topic. I was also going to ramble about how I feel like this game is veering towards a Street Fighter 2 Player 2 form of characterization - i.e. Red Gale vs Purple Gale, or Yellow as a Toad vs Green as a Toad Lae'zels - when what we really need is the BG3 Ultimate Turbo Streetfighter 50+ Edition! - but then stopped myself, but then didn't.

hehe

grin

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Aproximately dozen years back i started to notice that every second (mostly younger) roleplayer wish for his character to be "different" or "special" if you wish ... and i was so unlucky so i ended in party of pure vegetarian, teetotaler(?) Dwarfs, who never said harsh word, refuse to land a lethal blow to anything and all aspired for Magic ...
It was not pleasant experience. :-/
But it helped me appreciate Archetypical characters. :3

So i gues nobody can be surprised that my favourite is Lae'zel ...
I mean Niara done quite good job in her description and i can only say +1 to that, bcs in my eyes that is precisely Lae'zel ...
And that is also exactly why i love her. :3 Lae'zel is as Githyanki as much Githyanki can be and i believe its really good to have such character in our party.

About Astarion ...
I mean sure, he is narcistic and sadistic bastard, who see anyone except himself as puppets to play and is shocked when someone "obviously fail to see how happy they should be just bcs he allowed them to be in his presence" ... but once again, that is what i would expect from Vampire.
I dunno nothing about what Vampires are or are not capable to feel in DnD .... but it seems perfectly logical that when you live forewer (quite litteraly) petty throubles of meere mortals starts to fell ... well, boring. laugh
It still pisses me off that we dont have any option to split his skull open once he dares to attack us, that indeed should be reverted ... i would not even mind if he only gets beating and have forcet cutscene where he surender. :-/
Second huge minus, not to companion itself, but to writing dialogues is about that he seems to be still "on horse" (not sure if english use this expresion) ... you often simply have no other choice but to forgive him, not bcs you want to ... but bcs Larian simply dont add other dialogue option. laugh

About Gale ...
Now this one is a little problematic, i mean sure Gale is smug as Sephiroth ... but unlike the others i cant help the feeling that he earned that right.
That said IF he indeed was Archmage (i mean i would not be surprised if we find out that he was actualy not) ...
Personaly i dont buy all that crap about him being Good character, he is manipulative, he is secretive and he dont really care about others if he wants something (speaking about the Idol) ... sure, people could say that he needs it, or that his condition is forcing him ... but i cant help the feeling that this is only covenient excuse to hide his true nature.
I may be wrong ofcourse, but it just seems to me like true good character would try harder to find "another solution" than to jump over first one you find.
I believe he is more like Neutral ... and maybe a little chaotic too ... like yes, he dont wish to hurt anyone purposely ... but if anyone gets hurt, well he should have move sooner.
So in the end ... i like gale, oddly enough. Not as much as the other two, but i do ... his character seems interesting enough to me so i wish to know more.

Shadowheart ...
There could be whole books written about what is wrong with this woman ... or maybe more like girl.
I dont like her, like "at all" ... exactly for those reasons Niara listed abowe (+1 once again) ...
Since the way Shadowheart is written its like someone from Larian really hate us players and wish to tell us as often as possible and she is his messenger ... either that, or they simply tryed to create character with some duality (and failed horribly in my honest opinion) ...
There is nothing i would like at this character and it gets even worse as you continue playing and they keep push her litteraly under your nose. -_-
Honestly with every other alternation i like her even less, since as it seems to me, Larian is only adding another and another conversations and reactions for her, yet dont altern allready existing ... so we get to situation where Shadow is totally able to swear you loayality in first sentence and threaten you with death in next one. :-/
I said it countless times, but she seems to me like some Emo or Goth 14y old girl, who wish nothing more than being recognized as this edgy and "complicated" character ... who is dramaticaly pushing everyone away, just to keep herself in their presence ... but Gods forbid anyone who dares to ignore her! :-/

And Wyll? Ugh ... the only person i hate even more than Shadow. :-/
I believe that goblin who called him "Capitan Failure" described him perfectly ...
Wyll was a noble ... spoilet brat who had everything and never needed to work for that, so he didnt appreciated it ...
So his father send him to mercenaries ... but he didnt deserved that, so he didnt appreciated it ...
He could get some important life lessons ... concidering Flaming Fist captain, he never even bothered ...
Then something failed horribly, and lot of people lost their lives bcs of him ... so he signed pact with a fiend and get power ... and once again he never needed to work for it, so he didnt appreciated it ...
I dunno ... maybe i dont know the whole story here ... but Wyll seems like exactly that type of character who screwed something bad, then tryed really hard to make up for it ... but was too lazy to do that properly, and therefore we screwed that again ... and then again, and again, and again ... and will keep doing the same misstake over and over and over for rest of his life, simply bcs he never stops and say "damn ... i screwed that" ... no, it will allways be someone elses fault. :-/

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 02/11/21 03:25 PM.

If my comments bother you, there is nothing easier than telling me to stop.
I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
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I dislike all of the current companions, most of my issues with them were listed before so I'll mention some other things.

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Plotholes and the relationship between gameplay and narrative. This is going to be about Gale.

Gale has a True Resurrection scroll which is the exact solution he needs for all of his problems. It creates a whole new body (mirroring the original with full health) that your soul can inhabit. It's also a cure for vampirism if we can even call it a cure.

Gale somehow went from an archmage who could use Power Word: Blind to a level 1 wizard barely able to cast a single magic missile. This made him lose his proficiency bonus and knowledge about Arcana. The gameplay doesn't support this kind of "depowerment". The only way I can imagine this is through irreversible mind-wipe, that would have more to do with messing around with the soul rather than the actual mind of a character. (I also want to mention that I find it incredibly weird that Mystra seems to "groom" wizards now when she only got interested in Elminster when he was in his prime.)

The above makes it evident that Larian doesn't care about the DnD lore interacting with the mechanics. I guess special special tadpoles are a good explanation for everything now. (there are characters who have special tadpoles but our tadpoles are even specialer) It's like nanomachines.

I have a feeling that the writers themselves want to one-up eachother when it comes to companion backstories. If Karlach is going to be a thing, we could sit around the campfire and watch our companions bicker about their "better-than-yours" backstories while we get to tell them that Tav is indeed from Baldur's Gate.

Gale's introduction is so infuriating that I usually kill him on the spot (there are no repercussions for it). Every camp scene he has feels incredibly forced and awkward, especially his "Go to Hell" monologue.

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Little bit about Astarion.

From what I know, a vampire is basically a distorted mirror image of the original person. This means that the person we call "Astarion" is not actually Astarion but a disgusting joke trying to mimic who he was. I find it incredibly difficult to justify having a vampire in the party. Astarion is only likely to survive in a merciful Neutral Good party that doesn't know a single thing about vampires, and if the player is not a paladin or a cleric of Kelemvor. Evil parties are very likely to just kill him as soon as they find out that Astarion is a threat to them, Lawful Good/Any Neutral parties would behave similarly.

He hits all the clichés from both teenage vampire romances and flamboyant gay coded evil characters and I'm honestly sick and tired of seeing this.

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The current group of companions feels incredibly dysfunctional.

They all bring with themselves a bunch of extra baggage/danger. I'm really not sure why the party would stick together after finding out that our tadpole is dormant, or after we find out the whole truth about them and what they are good for. Each one of them has a different idea of what to do with it. If this ends with having to do skillchecks to have party members stay, there's a chance that we might end up with less than a full party later on.

I'm not sure if a Lawful Good main character would have anyone left in the party, considering that all of the companions have committed serious crimes.

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Originally Posted by Black_Elk
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Interesting response in regards to Larian's character development. I'm curious to know which characters do you like or not based on what has been shown to you so far.

The challenge I find (for all these characters, in equal measure) is that the moviegoer in me feels one way about them and the d&d player in me feels another. I like all 5 actually, depending on what Character I want to play for myself, conveniently in the same order in which they are presented during the game - since I tend to lead Villain and then follow up later with Hero lol. But when I say I like them, I mean I like them primarily as sketches or draft concepts. I enjoy character vignettes in D&D crpg companions, with gaps left over to fill in with the imagination. After a certain point, the more fully realized the companion character becomes (sans input from me) the worse they function for that purpose, and the greater the need becomes for additional characters to then service the imaginative vignette developing desire.

To imagine that it's just going to be this (+3 more) is what worries me most. It feels like that's the kiss of death for this kind of party based crpg, and the shelf life will be cut short in it's prime. Most of the impressions or feedback I offer when it comes to BG3, comes from a perspective like 'what does it actually take to make a game that can endure for two decades? like Baldur's Gate did?' I see this as substantially different in a CRPG than what it takes to make an enduring novella or a classic film or an endlessly rewatchable cartoon, and so my attitude towards characterization is pretty different in that context. My solution for BG3 would be this but in a somewhat more polished and measured (read limited) final presentation, because I think that would provide the requisite scaffolding for the long game here - while not necessarily dethroning the fab 5 from their pride of place. Sadly, I suspect that for each new Origin Companion they add to the game (1 at a time as seems likely) that groans of disappointment will follow from many quarters for the new characters not living up to one's highest hopes for them. We haven't had any added yet, so when it eventually happens (with Minsc or Karlach or whoever), you can just predict the collective sighs of "meh" that will attend to their big debuts.

The issue is quantitative as much as qualitative, and the quantity is strikingly low right now. So if someone likes Shadowheart cause she bitchywitchy and someone else doesn't like her for that same reason, and if Larian's solution is to just continually vacillate and iterate with each new build to make Shadowheart somehow both (and everything in between) - then it morphs from a "choose your own adventure" story into a "choose your own chimera companion from the big list of 5" story, and that will be weaksauce for sure.

The quickest response I can give is that I love all 5, and I also hate all 5, and the only way I can think of to make them better at this point is to leave them alone, and focus on other stuff before it's too late lol

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]


Ps. Apologies in advance if that pushed a little off topic. I was also going to ramble about how I feel like this game is veering towards a Street Fighter 2 Player 2 form of characterization - i.e. Red Gale vs Purple Gale, or Yellow as a Toad vs Green as a Toad Lae'zels - when what we really need is the BG3 Ultimate Turbo Streetfighter 50+ Edition! - but then stopped myself, but then didn't.

hehe

grin

I'm gathering from what you are saying is you think these characters aren't well written so you have love and hate relationship with them. That's more of a writing issue but also I feel that depends on you perspective. The point of this discussion to to talk aboutwhy we like or do not like a character. Once again you seem to be dissecting Larian's writing and character development. That's a whole separate discussion.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Aproximately dozen years back i started to notice that every second (mostly younger) roleplayer wish for his character to be "different" or "special" if you wish ... and i was so unlucky so i ended in party of pure vegetarian, teetotaler(?) Dwarfs, who never said harsh word, refuse to land a lethal blow to anything and all aspired for Magic ...
It was not pleasant experience. :-/
But it helped me appreciate Archetypical characters. :3

So i gues nobody can be surprised that my favourite is Lae'zel ...
I mean Niara done quite good job in her description and i can only say +1 to that, bcs in my eyes that is precisely Lae'zel ...
And that is also exactly why i love her. :3 Lae'zel is as Githyanki as much Githyanki can be and i believe its really good to have such character in our party.

About Astarion ...
I mean sure, he is narcistic and sadistic bastard, who see anyone except himself as puppets to play and is shocked when someone "obviously fail to see how happy they should be just bcs he allowed them to be in his presence" ... but once again, that is what i would expect from Vampire.
I dunno nothing about what Vampires are or are not capable to feel in DnD .... but it seems perfectly logical that when you live forewer (quite litteraly) petty throubles of meere mortals starts to fell ... well, boring. laugh
It still pisses me off that we dont have any option to split his skull open once he dares to attack us, that indeed should be reverted ... i would not even mind if he only gets beating and have forcet cutscene where he surender. :-/
Second huge minus, not to companion itself, but to writing dialogues is about that he seems to be still "on horse" (not sure if english use this expresion) ... you often simply have no other choice but to forgive him, not bcs you want to ... but bcs Larian simply dont add other dialogue option. laugh

About Gale ...
Now this one is a little problematic, i mean sure Gale is smug as Sephiroth ... but unlike the others i cant help the feeling that he earned that right.
That said IF he indeed was Archmage (i mean i would not be surprised if we find out that he was actualy not) ...
Personaly i dont buy all that crap about him being Good character, he is manipulative, he is secretive and he dont really care about others if he wants something (speaking about the Idol) ... sure, people could say that he needs it, or that his condition is forcing him ... but i cant help the feeling that this is only covenient excuse to hide his true nature.
I may be wrong ofcourse, but it just seems to me like true good character would try harder to find "another solution" than to jump over first one you find.
I believe he is more like Neutral ... and maybe a little chaotic too ... like yes, he dont wish to hurt anyone purposely ... but if anyone gets hurt, well he should have move sooner.
So in the end ... i like gale, oddly enough. Not as much as the other two, but i do ... his character seems interesting enough to me so i wish to know more.

Shadowheart ...
There could be whole books written about what is wrong with this woman ... or maybe more like girl.
I dont like her, like "at all" ... exactly for those reasons Niara listed abowe (+1 once again) ...
Since the way Shadowheart is written its like someone from Larian really hate us players and wish to tell us as often as possible and she is his messenger ... either that, or they simply tryed to create character with some duality (and failed horribly in my honest opinion) ...
There is nothing i would like at this character and it gets even worse as you continue playing and they keep push her litteraly under your nose. -_-
Honestly with every other alternation i like her even less, since as it seems to me, Larian is only adding another and another conversations and reactions for her, yet dont altern allready existing ... so we get to situation where Shadow is totally able to swear you loayality in first sentence and threaten you with death in next one. :-/
I said it countless times, but she seems to me like some Emo or Goth 14y old girl, who wish nothing more than being recognized as this edgy and "complicated" character ... who is dramaticaly pushing everyone away, just to keep herself in their presence ... but Gods forbid anyone who dares to ignore her! :-/

And Wyll? Ugh ... the only person i hate even more than Shadow. :-/
I believe that goblin who called him "Capitan Failure" described him perfectly ...
Wyll was a noble ... spoilet brat who had everything and never needed to work for that, so he didnt appreciated it ...
So his father send him to mercenaries ... but he didnt deserved that, so he didnt appreciated it ...
He could get some important life lessons ... concidering Flaming Fist captain, he never even bothered ...
Then something failed horribly, and lot of people lost their lives bcs of him ... so he signed pact with a fiend and get power ... and once again he never needed to work for it, so he didnt appreciated it ...
I dunno ... maybe i dont know the whole story here ... but Wyll seems like exactly that type of character who screwed something bad, then tryed really hard to make up for it ... but was too lazy to do that properly, and therefore we screwed that again ... and then again, and again, and again ... and will keep doing the same misstake over and over and over for rest of his life, simply bcs he never stops and say "damn ... i screwed that" ... no, it will allways be someone elses fault. :-/

Thank you for your input. Interesting take on the characters.

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Okay, I'll play as well.

I'm not going to restate opinions about the companions that have already been stated here. Assuming that Larian keeps a 4 person party, I'll base my choices on whom I'd quickly replace if/when someone else comes along.

Laezel - I use her because she makes the most sense as a tank in the EA. I don't particularly like or hate her, but I always feel that I'm the one that's replaceable when someone better comes along. I love what she brings to the party as far as combat and her jumping ability goes. But when I can replace her, I'm pretty sure she's gone unless her story takes a different turn. I might not tell her to leave, but if there is someone better, she's unlikely to get much party time.

Shadowheart - I generally like her, but she is in and out of my party as necessary whenever I need Gale or Wyll instead. I wonder if her personality is affected by whatever is hiding her memories as well. Like others, I believe she is a Selune disciple brainwashed to believe she is a Shar follower. I most likely will keep her in my group the entire game.

Asterion - I generally dislike him, both because he's a vampire and because I don't see Rogues and the like as so prissy. I use him in my group mostly because my playstyle uses magic less and combat tactics more and Asterion makes a good scout and ranged specialist. When someone else comes in I like better (probably Haslin because Shadowheart can take care of locks). I'll replace him and tell him to leave.

Gale - I generally like Gale. My opinion of him mirrors what Niara has posted. I will keep him my group and will play him as necessary. Since I'm not exactly sure what class my MC will end up being, he may be more of a camp follower and sometimes party member or may always end up in the group. But I generally like his character.

Wyll - Just never warmed up to Wyll. I have a bit more sympathy to him I guess than many here, but his character class is just one I struggle with. I do like a good redemption story, but I'm just not sure Wyll IS one. He's a Hero wanna be and seems just too defensive of his actions. If Larian is reading this, maybe they can do better with him. But for now, probably will rarely use him as a party member and he'll end up being a camp body or I'll tell him to leave.

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