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Didn't you folks learn anything from your encounter with the Empathic Manifestation?

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
I believe the point was

Quote
So I am new to D&D lore and honestly I think one of the earliest scenes of the game really assumes way too much of my knowledge of the D&D gods.

When a certain character's religious beliefs are exposed our character seems to have either the "I don't care" response or the interesting "you lied to me!" and even more interesting response "Leave! I wont associate with Sharrans"

But the game doesn't explain what the big frigging deal is! How did this character lie? At no point did they say they worshiped another god or anyone explain to me what the big deal is. Why should I care? What's the down side? I mean compared to a Gith who will murder me if I sneeze funny or literal vampire. Who cares?

we already established the guy has a tough time understanding the written word.

Can't. Stop. Laughing.

What's more hilarious is the majority if not all the people here disagree with you.
It has been 19 pages of people that are trying to communicate to you what the problem is and what the point of the first post of this thread was and you still don't get it.

Actually its probably not hilarious. It's sad really.
Imagine debating for 19 pages against the idea that new players could benefit from the narrator explaining who and what shar is to give context to the reactions of SH's reveal.
Instead of you know... pausing the game and opening an encyclopedia, google or whatever third party lore dump to get an explanation.
And this is all in the context of the game is already doing TONS of world building exposition through the narrator and skills checks.

wow... Just... wow...
Go outside. Touch some grass.

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Originally Posted by Eddiar
Go outside. Touch some grass.

"'Grass'? What is 'grass"?"
"Here's a book. Knock yourself out."

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Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Can't. Stop. Laughing.

What's more hilarious is the majority if not all the people here disagree with you.
It has been 19 pages of people that are trying to communicate to you what the problem is and what the point of the first post of this thread was and you still don't get it.

Actually its probably not hilarious. It's sad really.
Imagine debating for 19 pages against the idea that new players could benefit from the narrator explaining who and what shar is to give context to the reactions of SH's reveal.
Instead of you know... pausing the game and opening an encyclopedia, google or whatever third party lore dump to get an explanation.
And this is all in the context of the game is already doing TONS of world building exposition through the narrator and skills checks.

wow... Just... wow...
Go outside. Touch some grass.

Don't engage with him, all it's going to do is bring the mods down and he'll convince himself he "won" either way.

Last edited by Boblawblah; 03/11/21 06:59 PM.
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Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Originally Posted by Eddiar
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Can't. Stop. Laughing.

What's more hilarious is the majority if not all the people here disagree with you.
It has been 19 pages of people that are trying to communicate to you what the problem is and what the point of the first post of this thread was and you still don't get it.

Actually its probably not hilarious. It's sad really.
Imagine debating for 19 pages against the idea that new players could benefit from the narrator explaining who and what shar is to give context to the reactions of SH's reveal.
Instead of you know... pausing the game and opening an encyclopedia, google or whatever third party lore dump to get an explanation.
And this is all in the context of the game is already doing TONS of world building exposition through the narrator and skills checks.

wow... Just... wow...
Go outside. Touch some grass.

Don't engage with him, all it's going to do is bring the mods down and he'll convince himself he "won" either way.


Yeah... you are right.
Sorry mods. I am done.

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^-^

A bit of exposition on repeat themes and elements wouldn't hurt indeed.

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Aaand we're back...how about seeing more of the Sharran raid on the Nautiloid, it might give us a primer on what exactly Shar stands for and set the tone for what her worshippers are like.

I'm thinking we have two good sources of information on Shar in the game, Shadowheart, and Halsin, Halsin because he fought with the Justiciars personally, but we're not liable to meet him, if ever, until well into the game. Considering where all the Shadowheart scenes are, the game probably expects us to have the reveal before then also.

Last edited by Sozz; 03/11/21 08:21 PM. Reason: Halsin bit added
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Originally Posted by Sozz
good sources of information on Shar

...

Shadowheart

Consider the source.

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What about the chapel? There is an enchanted book there that we get inspiration from and it is about old dead forgotten gods... why not have that book be about Shar left by some ancient scribe?
Maybe have shar exposed to the player there and maybe have some visual display about what horrible things the dark justiciar do that makes shar worshippers so hated...

Maybe have SH lie to us right there about who she worships?

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Based on what she says I don't think there's any misinformation going on about Shar from Shadowheart.

The thing about the chapel, I'm not sure when it was constructed, is there an implication it was made before the reboot? All the old Jergal priests kept it there for when...things happen. This might be datamined stuff I'm not privy too.

And I don't think having Shadowheart lie to us about who she worships, isn't very different from what we get now, where it's a non-issue. I think because they want this Shar reveal to happen pretty early it would get in the way of that too. They want us to have a sympathetic voice for Shar in the party, and they want it there for us to deal with early.

As soon as we get more of the less morally compromised companions, I think her reveal might become a bigger deal for the player and the party, maybe

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Originally Posted by Dez
Like Ragitsu said, we don't even need a "book" to understand the basics of Shar. A decent description of Shar that would be enough to cover the basic knowledge that most residents of Faêrun possess could easily be done in one sentence, or two (and so many people here have already made really good examples of such sentences). Personally I am in favor for having the narrator announce the basics whenever Shar is brought up for the first time - as the narrator is supposed to back the player with information that they should possess ingame, yet might not do so irl. Like a DM!

"Be inside when the night shows its face,
Shar takes boys and girls that run into her embrace."

Last edited by Ragitsu; 04/11/21 12:00 AM.
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You also have another potential good source of knowledge in the game. And that's my point. Your character may know who these goddesses are. Why is it only reserved to two potential experts? Lots of characters in the game might know who they are and could give players at least a brief explanation.

Here's the thing. You get to SH big reveal. She says, "I worship Shar."

Immediately, you have dialogue options. You, the player, are expected to know right then and there who they are with potentially 0 exposure to them.

My wife was one such person. She gets bored of lore books and such. We got to the big SH reveal, and she was like, "Is Shar bad or something? Should we kick her out?". I had to explain to her why Shar was a big deal. It was 100 % lost on her.

Last edited by GM4Him; 03/11/21 11:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by Sozz
Based on what she says I don't think there's any misinformation going on about Shar from Shadowheart.

The thing about the chapel, I'm not sure when it was constructed, is there an implication it was made before the reboot? All the old Jergal priests kept it there for when...things happen. This might be datamined stuff I'm not privy too.

And I don't think having Shadowheart lie to us about who she worships, isn't very different from what we get now, where it's a non-issue. I think because they want this Shar reveal to happen pretty early it would get in the way of that too. They want us to have a sympathetic voice for Shar in the party, and they want it there for us to deal with early.

As soon as we get more of the less morally compromised companions, I think her reveal might become a bigger deal for the player and the party, maybe

Yeah I was trying to find a point in time to get the shar intro and have a chance for Shadowheart to lie to us to justify the dialogue line we get later "You lied to me!" when she never did.

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I had/have no idea who Shar was/is. When the big reveal came, I just shrugged my shoulders and said, "So? Is this God really that bad? Are they like a Bane, Bhaal, Lolth type of God?" So I just went with the most neutral response. The game does need a better job of explaining who Shar is. All I knew was that Shar and Selune hated each other... And I have no idea who Selune is either, other than she's good? Because she opposes Shar?

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Originally Posted by Big_hat
I had/have no idea who Shar was/is. When the big reveal came, I just shrugged my shoulders and said, "So? Is this God really that bad? Are they like a Bane, Bhaal, Lolth type of God?" So I just went with the most neutral response. The game does need a better job of explaining who Shar is. All I knew was that Shar and Selune hated each other... And I have no idea who Selune is either, other than she's good? Because she opposes Shar?
Indeed. It is perfectly reasonable that not every person playing this game will be an FR lore-loving person like me. The problem here is very much how the Larian writers have written the game. And I can't help but wonder if it is because the writers themselves are completely clueless about all of this FR lore. Maybe they're sincerely big D&D fans, but that doesn't mean they're FR fans and very knowledgeable about FR lore. So their focus maybe on making a "good D&D game," which is not the same as making a "good FR game," which is what I am looking for and expecting in a BG game.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Based on what she says I don't think there's any misinformation going on about Shar from Shadowheart.

Shadowheart isn't misinformative but biased, and she should be kept as such because she is a Sharite and that perspective is part of her character (and likely, her character ark). The "standard" (I can't think of a better way to put it in English right now) view on her is that I feel needs to be conveyed would be Shar as an Adversary deity. Shadowheart's perspective should be something that contrast with and add nuance to this "standard" view most people would have.


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I don't think they're clueless. There is too much lore written in the books and tomes with too many details for them to be clueless.

I'm guessing it's more of something like them not thinking how certain things might seem to the player.

Assuming you played the first two games, you should probably at least have some idea of who Shar is because of Viconia.

But not everyone who is playing BG3 has played 1 and 2. They're coming in fresh. It is these players who will be lost if they don't do something to explain who these goddesses are.

And who knows, maybe SH's entire look IS intentional. Maybe she's Selune's avatar, and Shar is totally messing with her. Who knows?

Regardless. Your character should roll to see if they know or recognize her for what she is. If they don't want to do that, they shouldn't have her wear that armor.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
...They want us to have a sympathetic voice for Shar in the party, and they want it there for us to deal with early.

As soon as we get more of the less morally compromised companions, I think her reveal might become a bigger deal for the player and the party, maybe

"Great minds" friend.

Yes considering what a large role it appears Shar will be playing in the narrative I have to assume they'll be making it pretty clear, but I think it needs to be told from the perspective of someone in the world, not from pseudo-scholarly perspective like from a historical book or cleric, or from an omniscient perspective like a lore dump cinematic, not to say we shouldn't have those. I think there's a way that we talk about Shar, that isn't how people in-universe would talk about her, most people in FR don't have access to the kind of material we do.

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Nearly all of my Shar knowledge is from BG I and II and I'm still in the dark...about most of what's happened pertinent to BG:III.

You might say I'm the perfect test subject for this.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I don't think they're clueless. There is too much lore written in the books and tomes with too many details for them to be clueless.

I'm guessing it's more of something like them not thinking how certain things might seem to the player.

Assuming you played the first two games, you should probably at least have some idea of who Shar is because of Viconia.

But not everyone who is playing BG3 has played 1 and 2. They're coming in fresh. It is these players who will be lost if they don't do something to explain who these goddesses are.

And who knows, maybe SH's entire look IS intentional. Maybe she's Selune's avatar, and Shar is totally messing with her. Who knows?

Regardless. Your character should roll to see if they know or recognize her for what she is. If they don't want to do that, they shouldn't have her wear that armor.

Yup, you're right. I didnt play BG1 or 2. I have BG1 in my steam library, but didn't get past the first town. It's just a different game to what I have become accustomed to in the 00s

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