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We have 3 evils and 2 neutrals here - the non-good companions, as mentioned.

In act one, Astarion's "Big Dark Secret" is... "I'm a vampire, bleugh!"

Shadowheart's is "I worship Shar"

Wyll's is "I'm pacted to a devil"

Gale's is "I fucked up and have a bomb in my chest"

What's Lae'zel's super dark side / dark secret?

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
We are trying to help you understand why some of us have mixed feelings on Gale but unfortunately it seems you are very dismissive of everything we say. I even gave you the comparison to Solas, not sure if you played Dragon Age. Solas is very much like Gale, yet he was a traitor. He manipulated you the entire time, made you think he knew nothing when he was the brains behind everything. That reveal was the biggest shock to the fan base, even though a lot of us love Solas, but he is what he is. It seems that you just don't want to accept the possibility that Gale could be the biggest manipulator of the group. He could be good to you for 95% of the game and not reveal his true intentions to the very end, just like how Solas did in Dragon Age.
This is not evidence for Gale being suspicious or untrustworthy though. This is projecting other characters' story arcs onto Gale, when Gale could actually be a Varric or Alistair or Vivienne. There's a difference between "accepting the possibility that a character can be lying and have hidden motives" and "believing that the character is lying and has hidden motives."

Niara, I think you're only considering info that is presented in BG3, not taking into account any meta-context (e.g., Larian's general NPC design/storyline decisions, common narratives for the smooth-talking, powerful, smart, and driven character). Whereas others seem to be considering this meta-context (see @GM4Him's post above). Neither is a wrong way to look at a character, as long as you recognize what sources you're considering and how such biases could affect further interactions with the character in-game. E.g., if you already are suspicious of Gale, then you'll become even more suspicious when you learn that he's studied Netherese magic because the tadpoles use that type of magic!

All that said, it's reasonable to be suspicious that Gale might sacrifice you if that would get him back in Mystra's good graces. I don't think he's planning on doing so, and he'd probably feel bad about it, but that is his driving force...besides you know, not dying.

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I'd more expect Gale to accept you as his lover, and then attempt to mantle Mystra onto you, in an effort to have Mystra as his lover again, more or less obliterating 'you' in the process, but hoping to wrangle it so that the new being, that is more Mystra than you, still loves him.

But yes; I'm not accounting for external meta at all in this, and that's a deliberate choice I'm making, because I don't feel it's fair to be suspicious of a character because "well they always do that". Maybe I'm just an optimist.

I had a much larger post written out, but it's not really going to progress much or help much, I don't think... But I'll post these bits of it, just as points of interest or order:


- No, I didn't play Dragon age, and I don't consider references to other characters in other games to be relevant here. They may even be misleading, since they are exactly the sort of thing that causes people to read things onto other characters that are not actually there. If you're inclined to think suspiciously of someone based on a past encounter with someone else completely different, that's personal bias, not a fair assessment of the person in question. If anything, referencing other characters in other games as your 'reason' for being suspicious of this one is a strong indicator that your perspective is not fair or objective, and that it may be worth your while to reflect on why exactly you drew those conclusions in the first place, and checking if they're still valid when you remove the 'because someone else did that' element.

- The magic practiced by Netheril is not dark or sinister or nasty (well, no more than many types can be, and it is often used that way, I will admit... but inherently it's not); the netherese empire was a magic-based society and they practiced arts the magnitude of which cannot be replicated today (literally can't, since Ao has since placed limits on the level of magic that non-divines, and even divines, can wield). They weren't much for respect of the goods, and much of their magical experimentation and exploration was aimed at supplanting them and casting them off, but the basic point of it is that their magic was highly advanced, and studying what is left of it after the fall of their empire is the pursuit of a great many wizards and other arcanists once they reach a certain level of skill. There's nothing suspicious about Gale being versed in information about netherese magic, and there's nothing to suggest that he uses it directly. Many magical creatures with long memories are suspicious of netherese magic at a superstitious level, because it was netheril that ended up destroying the weave itself in their folly, albeit only temporarily, and it destroyed their empire. So, a lot of people are leery of it, but there's nothing actually wrong with it, per se.

- It's also not surprising that Gale didn't 'sense' netherese magic at work on the tadpole, because he is a wizard, not a sorcerer. He Can't feel things like that, and can only be aware of them by evoking spells designed for the purpose. His weave scene was special, and remains special even if you're also a caster, because it's a uniquely designed spell that he's using to allow himself to actually feel the weave, and feel magic, directly – something that wizards cannot normally do. I will admit caveat to this, in as much as it's dubious that Larian are paying attention to this nuance at all... they may not be, in which case (if Larian are assuming he could feel things just by being close to them etc.), then by that definition, he should have, yes.

- In game; Gale has a tadpole. This is not really up for question. When controlling Gale you can go through all the various things that talk about what you feel your tadpole doing, and you have all of the tadpole related dreams, and you can undertake the various activities that use the tadpole, or get it treated, etc. Gale has a tadpole.

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Originally Posted by Niara
We have 3 evils and 2 neutrals here - the non-good companions, as mentioned.

In act one, Astarion's "Big Dark Secret" is... "I'm a vampire, bleugh!"

Shadowheart's is "I worship Shar"

Wyll's is "I'm pacted to a devil"

Gale's is "I fucked up and have a bomb in my chest"

What's Lae'zel's super dark side / dark secret?

If you do tadpole path, Lae'zel tells you she also mucked up. She did something that she doesn't want anyone to know, but essentially it was akin to treachery and total disgrace. She won't tell you, but she alludes to it as being the reason she is so desperately trying to do something huge to get into Vlaakith's good graces.

My guess is that she was close to being a kith'rak, because she at one point says it should be her flying on a dragon. It is her right, or something like that. Then she did whatever it was, and now things are even worse because she's the epitome of bad in gith eyes. She's infected. In her eyes, she cannot sink any lower now. That's why she so desperately wants the cure and nags you so much. She can't even begin to redeem herself until she is cured.

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Fair enough, I only do tadpole stuff when I'm specifically testing it.

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Originally Posted by Niara
I'd more expect Gale to accept you as his lover, and then attempt to mantle Mystra onto you, in an effort to have Mystra as his lover again, more or less obliterating 'you' in the process, but hoping to wrangle it so that the new being, that is more Mystra than you, still loves him.

But yes; I'm not accounting for external meta at all in this, and that's a deliberate choice I'm making, because I don't feel it's fair to be suspicious of a character because "well they always do that". Maybe I'm just an optimist.

I had a much larger post written out, but it's not really going to progress much or help much, I don't think... But I'll post these bits of it, just as points of interest or order:


- No, I didn't play Dragon age, and I don't consider references to other characters in other games to be relevant here. They may even be misleading, since they are exactly the sort of thing that causes people to read things onto other characters that are not actually there. If you're inclined to think suspiciously of someone based on a past encounter with someone else completely different, that's personal bias, not a fair assessment of the person in question. If anything, referencing other characters in other games as your 'reason' for being suspicious of this one is a strong indicator that your perspective is not fair or objective, and that it may be worth your while to reflect on why exactly you drew those conclusions in the first place, and checking if they're still valid when you remove the 'because someone else did that' element.

- The magic practiced by Netheril is no dark or sinister or nasty; the netherese empire was a magic-based society and they practiced arts the magnitude of which cannot be replicated today (literally can't, since Ao has since placed limits on the level of magic that non-divines, and even divines, can wield). They weren't much for respect of the goods, and much of their magical experimentation and exploration was aimed at supplanting them and casting them off, but the basic point of it is that their magic was highly advanced, and studying what is left of it after the fall of their empire is the pursuit of a great many wizards and other arcanists once they reach a certain level of skill. There's nothing suspicious about Gale being versed in information about netherese magic, and there's nothing to suggest that he uses it directly. Many magical creatures with long memories are suspicious of netherese magic at a superstitious level, because it was netheril that ended up destroying the weave itself in their folly, albeit only temporarily, and it destroyed their empire. So, a lot of people are leery of it, but there's nothing actually wrong with it, per se.

- It's also not surprising that Gale didn't 'sense' netherese magic at work on the tadpole, because he is a wizard, not a sorcerer. He Can't feel things like that, and can only be aware of them by evoking spells designed for the purpose. His weave scene was special, and remains special even if you're also a caster, because it's a uniquely designed spell that he's using to allow himself to actually feel the weave, and feel magic, directly – something that wizards cannot normally do. I will admit caveat to this, in as much as it's dubious that Larian are paying attention to this nuance at all... they may not be, in which case (if Larian are assuming he could feel things just by being close to them etc.), then by that definition, he should have, yes.

- In game; Gale has a tadpole. This is not really up for question. When controlling Gale you can go through all the various things that talk about what you feel your tadpole doing, and you have all of the tadpole related dreams, and you can undertake the various activities that use the tadpole, or get it treated, etc. Gale has a tadpole.

I'm a writer myself as I love writing fantasy stories and writers do get inspiration from other stories. We just tweak it to fit our own setting. The Forgotten Realms was inspired by Lord of the Rings. So if someone makes a comparison between the Forgotten Realms and Lord of the Rings to explain something, that does not mean its an unfair assessment or biased. It's finding a similarity between something and say "Hey it could be possible that this could be that as it has been done before." That doesn't make the person point of view invalid just because you refuse to even try to see something in a different light. You didn't play Dragon Age which is why you don't understand my comparison and that's fine. The impression that I'm getting from you is that you like Gale so much that you refuse to see any possibility of him turning against you. That's blind loyalty. For example, I like Astarion as a character but I'm not dismissive of the possibility of him turning out to be 100% evil. My hope is that I can change him to be good, but if not, then it is what it is. The problem is you don't want to accept that for Gale, to you, he just HAS to be good. You seem to be stanning a little to hard for him to the point that you refuse anything negative anyone has to say about him. Just because a character starts off with an alignment doesn't mean it can't change later. Nothing is set in stone.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
We are trying to help you understand why some of us have mixed feelings on Gale but unfortunately it seems you are very dismissive of everything we say. I even gave you the comparison to Solas, not sure if you played Dragon Age. Solas is very much like Gale, yet he was a traitor. He manipulated you the entire time, made you think he knew nothing when he was the brains behind everything. That reveal was the biggest shock to the fan base, even though a lot of us love Solas, but he is what he is. It seems that you just don't want to accept the possibility that Gale could be the biggest manipulator of the group. He could be good to you for 95% of the game and not reveal his true intentions to the very end, just like how Solas did in Dragon Age.
This is not evidence for Gale being suspicious or untrustworthy though. This is projecting other characters' story arcs onto Gale, when Gale could actually be a Varric or Alistair or Vivienne. There's a difference between "accepting the possibility that a character can be lying and have hidden motives" and "believing that the character is lying and has hidden motives."

Niara, I think you're only considering info that is presented in BG3, not taking into account any meta-context (e.g., Larian's general NPC design/storyline decisions, common narratives for the smooth-talking, powerful, smart, and driven character). Whereas others seem to be considering this meta-context (see @GM4Him's post above). Neither is a wrong way to look at a character, as long as you recognize what sources you're considering and how such biases could affect further interactions with the character in-game. E.g., if you already are suspicious of Gale, then you'll become even more suspicious when you learn that he's studied Netherese magic because the tadpoles use that type of magic!

All that said, it's reasonable to be suspicious that Gale might sacrifice you if that would get him back in Mystra's good graces. I don't think he's planning on doing so, and he'd probably feel bad about it, but that is his driving force...besides you know, not dying.

I'm not claiming to believe that he is already bad what I'm saying is that based on some of the things that I have seen and his study of Netherese magic and like you said, the tadpoles also have Netherese magic. There is the possibility that he knows more than what he is allowing you to know. GM4Him even mentioned Elminster who is the most powerful wizard in all of Faerun and he is also able to disguise himself. That's why I also say, that if Larian introduces Elminster he could possibly be Gale in disguise.

Last edited by Lady Avyna; 04/11/21 05:10 AM.
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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
'm a writer myself as I love writing fantasy stories and writers do get inspiration from other stories. We just tweak it to fit our own setting. The Forgotten Realms was inspired by Lord of the Rings. So if someone makes a comparison between the Forgotten Realms and Lord of the Rings to explain something, that does not mean its an unfair assessment or biased. It's finding a similarity between something and say "Hey it could be possible that this could be that as it has been done before." That doesn't make the person point of view invalid just because you refuse to even try to see something in a different light. You didn't play Dragon Age which is why you don't understand my comparison and that's fine. The impression that I'm getting from you is that you like Gale so much that you refuse to see any possibility of him turning against you. That's blind loyalty. For example, I like Astarion as a character but I'm not dismissive of the possibility of him turning out to be 100% evil. My hope is that I can change him to be good, but if not, then it is what it is. The problem is you don't want to accept that for Gale, to you, he just HAS to be good. You seem to be stanning a little to hard for him to the point that you refuse anything negative anyone has to say about him. Just because a character starts off with an alignment doesn't mean it can't change later. Nothing is set in stone.

I'm also a published author, and let me tell you that saying 'this character reads suspiciously, because this other character in this other story started out similarly and was super evil' is not something that is ever going to fly in any critical review. I'm not refusing anything; point to anywhere where I have, if you can. I literally just suggested one likely possibility of a way he could betray you in the future, above. What I'm saying is that right now, within the context of the game itself, and not referencing other media - going off what we have right here and now, in this game with these characters, there isn't anything that I can see that is grounds for legitimate suspicion of him being anything other than what he presents. That could very well mean that he's better at hiding it than most - I'd make my normal complain about Larian and their personal mary-sue characters being able to lie to us flawlessly because they want them to, while we're not allowed to keep anything back from them, ever... but setting that aside, he could be. Right now in game, however, there's nothing legitimately suspicious about him that doesn't require some kind of external bias coming from the viewer mapped onto him. The fact of the matter is that at the moment, Gale has never lied to us at all - and he's one of the few characters that hasn't.

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Originally Posted by Niara
I'm also a published author, and let me tell you that saying 'this character reads suspiciously, because this other character in this other story started out similarly and was super evil' is not something that is ever going to fly in any critical review.

You're twisting my words. I did not say that. I only made a comparison of how something like that could happen and not that, that's what I think it is because it's not. Also it's not true about your presumption of critics. I have read reviews where critics will read a story and say that a particular character may seem suspicious because they did one or two things and even compare it to other sources. There is nothing wrong with their review its just the observation they have of a character.

Originally Posted by Niara
The fact of the matter is that at the moment, Gale has never lied to us at all - and he's one of the few characters that hasn't.

The way you see him, he might as well have a halo over his head. You seem to be placing him on a high pedestal. You're basing your opinion of him as a fact. Every companion has come clean about their backstory, I don't view keeping information as lying unless I ask and it's denied. For example, Shadowheart refuses to tell you about herself or her past, I don't view that as lying. She's being honest enough to say, I don't feel like telling you. Every character is flawed, some more than others. I see Wyll as the biggest liar. As for Astarion, yes, many people can't stand his guts because they have made up their mind that he HAS to be evil because he's a vampire but there is still the possibility of him being good. What makes Gale so infallible in you eyes, that there is no possibility of him being bad?

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You're saying that you can use reading a character as similar to another one who did betray you as grounds for asserting suspicion that this one might as well. I'm saying that that is not a fair claim and is not, in fact, justified. We might disagree, and that's fine, but I know which stance anyone interested in a fair trial would stand with.

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The way you see him, he might as well have a halo over his head. You seem to be placing him on a high pedestal. You're basing your opinion of him as a fact.

No, I don't. I'd have thought I'd made that quite clear by now, but you seem to be ignoring anything I say that doesn't fit your interpretation of me... there's irony. I have openly acknowledged the elements that I was unaware of as being potentially problematic in the future, or possible warning flags; I have suggested ways that I could foresee him betraying the player character if it comes to it. I've have never once denied the possibility of him being darker than he presents, and I have never once claimed him to be in any way perfect or infallible... you're the one mapping that onto me, to make your argument. Don't do that; I don't appreciate it. There are elements of his characterisation that I don't care for - there's just fewer with him than any other. He is a deeply flawed character with a lot of baggage; something which I have acknowledged multiple times. What have I said, anywhere in this entire thread, that I have claimed as factual which has not been so? Feel free to point it out.

I've stated as opinion that I don't see anything genuinely suspicious about him so far that doesn't require mapping something external onto him from the viewer's side. I've stated as opinion that I don't feel that there are any legitimate grounds for suspicion against him, as of yet. I've asked others who do feel suspicious of him to tell me what factors make them feel so, and some folks have answered! That's great! More or less still not seeing it, I've asked people to explain why those things they point out make them suspicious - why they find them to be so - and I've not gotten any clear answers there, yet, beyond external references to other games, which I don't personally accept as legitimate in the context of this game, here and now. That's where we stand, as far as I know.

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As far as i'm concerned, the biggest indicator that he might not be as 'nice' as he makes himself out to be is that he's willing to through the massacre at the grove, if persuaded.

But then again, Alistair in Dragon Age:Origins is potentially willing to watch the PC kill kids and do all kinds of heinous stuff, which is pretty interesting to think about since by DnD standards he's very much good aligned. Paints a very... unflattering image of his character, that potentinal, and maybe Gale, in the instance above, behaves the same, making it just a case of extreme moral cowardness as opposed to outright evilness.

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I don't find Gale very suspicious either. He seems to be very honest about everything so far.
I can see his story taking a darker turn, when Mystra gets involved ( and she most certainly will be) and you make the wrong decision. But I don't think, he is evil atm. or suspicious in any way. He is certainly one of the more easygoing companions for me. He and Shadowheart are the comps, I get approval easily by just playing how I like.
Given that all companions are basically Mary Sues, who are oh so special, I can totally see the Elminster route for Gale. I wouldn't care for it, but I wouldn't put it past Larian.

About the Dragon Age comparison: There are no real similarities between Gale and Solas apart from the fact, that they are mages. Gale is open minded and friendly, while Solas is borderline racist ( try talking to him as a dwarf or Qunari).
Also Solas betrayal isn't really a surprise, If you played the first two games: in every game, you are played by your mage companions- Morrigan in DAO, Anders (and bloodmage Merrill to an extent) in DA2 , so yeah, I was eying Solas, Dorian and Vivienne very suspicious.


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Originally Posted by Niara
You're saying that you can use reading a character as similar to another one who did betray you as grounds for asserting suspicion that this one might as well. I'm saying that that is not a fair claim and is not, in fact, justified. We might disagree, and that's fine, but I know which stance anyone interested in a fair trial would stand with.

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The way you see him, he might as well have a halo over his head. You seem to be placing him on a high pedestal. You're basing your opinion of him as a fact.

No, I don't. I'd have thought I'd made that quite clear by now, but you seem to be ignoring anything I say that doesn't fit your interpretation of me... there's irony. I have openly acknowledged the elements that I was unaware of as being potentially problematic in the future, or possible warning flags; I have suggested ways that I could foresee him betraying the player character if it comes to it. I've have never once denied the possibility of him being darker than he presents, and I have never once claimed him to be in any way perfect or infallible... you're the one mapping that onto me, to make your argument. Don't do that; I don't appreciate it. There are elements of his characterisation that I don't care for - there's just fewer with him than any other. He is a deeply flawed character with a lot of baggage; something which I have acknowledged multiple times. What have I said, anywhere in this entire thread, that I have claimed as factual which has not been so? Feel free to point it out.

I've stated as opinion that I don't see anything genuinely suspicious about him so far that doesn't require mapping something external onto him from the viewer's side. I've stated as opinion that I don't feel that there are any legitimate grounds for suspicion against him, as of yet. I've asked others who do feel suspicious of him to tell me what factors make them feel so, and some folks have answered! That's great! More or less still not seeing it, I've asked people to explain why those things they point out make them suspicious - why they find them to be so - and I've not gotten any clear answers there, yet, beyond external references to other games, which I don't personally accept as legitimate in the context of this game, here and now. That's where we stand, as far as I know.

Okay, fair enough. Since you only want information about the possibility of Gale being not so good to come only from Baldur's Gate 3, a Forgotten Realm region and since BG3 is a DnD game, the only other source I can pick from is from the Forgetten Realms. Some may or may not know that there is a character by the name of Simbul who was also a chosen of the Goddess of Magic, Mystra. Simbul was one of the most powerful spellcasters in Faerun and a lover of Elminster. In her story, after an event where the weave collapsed, she was driven mad and the only way to keep her sanity was to consume enchanted items. That is a similarity with Gale.

Gale claims to have a bomb in his cheat that needs enchanted items to keep it at bay. He could very well be lying about the whole bomb situation, just to get those items. GM4Him meantioned Elminster, I don't know how well verse you are in DnD lore, but Elminster is a lover of Simbul (the woman that needs the enchanted items) and the Goddess Mystra. Elminster is also a chosen of Mystra and one of his traits is that he is also a trickster. Elminster is a very famous and powerful wizard, he's an Archwizard who just like Gale has rivals. He can also disguise himself. Elminster loves Mystra more than anything and will do anything for her. He was even driven to the brink of insanity when Mystra died and the weave collapsed. Other events have occurred and now she is back and Eliminster is back to normal. Now, Elminster arrived in Waterdeep in 1491 DR and Baldur's Gate 3 takes place in 1492 DR. Gale tells you he's from Waterdeep and is a chosen of Mystra, just like Elminster. You don't think there is a possibly that he could be deceiving you? That's what the whole point of our discussion has been but you don't like metacontext, so this is the best I can do to try to explain why some of use may be weary of Gale.

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Rampant speculation is no reason to get to such a row. Acknowledge that from where we are now, most things are still on the table and let's stop shaming people for speculating what that might be

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Originally Posted by fylimar
I don't find Gale very suspicious either. He seems to be very honest about everything so far.
I can see his story taking a darker turn, when Mystra gets involved ( and she most certainly will be) and you make the wrong decision. But I don't think, he is evil atm. or suspicious in any way. He is certainly one of the more easygoing companions for me. He and Shadowheart are the comps, I get approval easily by just playing how I like.
Given that all companions are basically Mary Sues, who are oh so special, I can totally see the Elminster route for Gale. I wouldn't care for it, but I wouldn't put it past Larian.

About the Dragon Age comparison: There are no real similarities between Gale and Solas apart from the fact, that they are mages. Gale is open minded and friendly, while Solas is borderline racist ( try talking to him as a dwarf or Qunari).
Also Solas betrayal isn't really a surprise, If you played the first two games: in every game, you are played by your mage companions- Morrigan in DAO, Anders (and bloodmage Merrill to an extent) in DA2 , so yeah, I was eying Solas, Dorian and Vivienne very suspicious.

Apart from the similarity of mages, Gale studies the weave and Netherese magic just like how Solas studies the Fade and Rift magic. I don't see him as racist towards the Dwarf and Qunari, they are not known to be nice races. Solas is an Elf, let alone he's practically a God Elf, Fen'Harel. Elves in Dragon Age are seen as slaves minus Dalish Elves in the wilderness. For example, if you choose to be an Elf, you have markings on your face. You character thinks it's a Dalish thing until Solas tells you it's not. Solas isn't seen as evil by fans but definitely manipulative. He did what he did because he thinks it's best for his people but still he's messed up for what he did and he pretended with you the whole time. There is a possible similarity with Gale, he loves Mystra and wants her approval. It's possible that he's lying to you about who or what he is just so that he can continue to please Mystra and be the most powerful wizard in Faerun. That's where Gale possibly being Elminster comes in. He does say he's a "Chosen" of Mystra just like Elminster.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
Rampant speculation is no reason to get to such a row. Acknowledge that from where we are now, most things are still on the table and let's stop shaming people for speculating what that might be

My intention isn't to shame anyone. I apologize if it came out that way. What I will say is that, it seems some are very attached to characters and it's really hard to have a fair discussion where no matter what you say, the person will refuse to see it. It becomes hard to try to get the person to understand what you are trying to say.

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
[Elminster, Simbul, and some interesting dates]

Now, this is a far better good-faith argument for possibilities with Gale. Don't worry, I'm intimately familiar with the realms, its events and its figures of note ^.^

Simbul is (was) one of the seven Silverhand sisters, and in interesting choice if you're looking for magic-related story inspiration... The magic eating element is indeed familiar, and I've no doubt someone on the team took it as inspiration; I might expect that we'll be able to find something a particularly unusual magic item that will be the catalyst consumption for the resolution of Gale's chest bomb problem, perhaps, if they're taking it that far. I'm not sure how it relates to a discussion of suspicious nature, though. If you're making that comparison, do you feel then that Gale is indeed the sort who would ultimately choose to sacrifice himself to save someone else?

Gale is extremely unlikely to be fibbing about the chest bomb: we get a chance to feel it both directly, and through his senses, on two different occasions, and it's definitely there, and definitely hungry and dark and oppressive. We also know for fact that if his condition isn't fed, he does indeed explode badly enough to warrant an absolute game over... so, no, he's not fibbing about that bit, or at least, we have no reasonable grounds to imagine that he might be. I've said already that I would not be at all surprised if Larian ran with the Elminster idea, since it's the kind of extra they're likely to go for.

I hadn't actually realised that the dates around waterdeep lined up that well - I knew it was close, but hadn't looked into it specifically. Either way, I'll reiterate, again, just in case you've skimmed over it all the other times, that I've never denied the possibility that Gale is deceiving us in some way, and the Elminster idea is interesting... However, as before, there's nothing in the game at the moment that gives reasonable grounds for suspicion of this; there are lots of wizards in waterdeep. I'd say if Gale begins to reference events known to be associated with Elminster, or if his general worldliness starts to step beyond what seems reasonable for an archmage from waterdeep (which, admittedly is a high boundary to push on, unfortunately), then we'll have something.

What I will say is that efforts to speculate rationally without jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions are badly stymied by the fact that Larian lets all of their characters lie to us flawlessly whenever they want to, and we're not allowed to notice, or make a check, or call them out on it in any way, unless Larian wants us to, and that's really, deeply, unfair, especially since we are unable to keep anything back from any of them.

Probably worth me taking a few moments out to add my normal caveat here - if anything has come off harsh or argumentative, that's not my intention, and I apologise if I have. My aim is honest and frank discussion, without intention to argue, upset or offend. I'm not interested in 'winning' a debate, I'm just interested in the discussion.

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Sozz
Rampant speculation is no reason to get to such a row. Acknowledge that from where we are now, most things are still on the table and let's stop shaming people for speculating what that might be

My intention isn't to shame anyone. I apologize if it came out that way. What I will say is that, it seems some are very attached to characters and it's really hard to have a fair discussion where no matter what you say, the person will refuse to see it. It becomes hard to try to get the person to understand what you are trying to say.
Why don't you see it in another way: we get, what you are saying, we just have different opinions. Like you see Solas and Astarion as misunderstood and I see them as evil. I never did say, that your viewpoints are any less valid, Nor did Niara or anyone else. We just give arguments for our viewpoints as you do for yours.
You said a few times, when people tried to argue ( me included) , that they are dismissive, argumentative etc. and that just isn't the case.
I would like to discuss Solas further with you, because of course my opinion is totally different, but I'm weary, that I might be accused of something again.


"We are all stories in the end. Just make it a good one."

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Originally Posted by Niara
Simbul is (was) one of the seven Silverhand sisters, and in interesting choice if you're looking for magic-related story inspiration... The magic eating element is indeed familiar, and I've no doubt someone on the team took it as inspiration; I might expect that we'll be able to find something a particularly unusual magic item that will be the catalyst consumption for the resolution of Gale's chest bomb problem, perhaps, if they're taking it that far. I'm not sure how it relates to a discussion of suspicious nature, though. If you're making that comparison, do you feel then that Gale is indeed the sort who would ultimately choose to sacrifice himself to save someone else?

You don't think it's possible that he could be lying?

Originally Posted by Niara
Gale is extremely unlikely to be fibbing about the chest bomb: we get a chance to feel it both directly, and through his senses, on two different occasions, and it's definitely there, and definitely hungry and dark and oppressive. We also know for fact that if his condition isn't fed, he does indeed explode badly enough to warrant an absolute game over... so, no, he's not fibbing about that bit, or at least, we have no reasonable grounds to imagine that he might be.

Again, he could be lying. Everything we know about him is based on what he tells you. As for the mind meld, again, he lets you in. Who is to say that he is not making you see or feel those things? Netherese Magic is meant t be the most powerful magic in Faerun. If he happens to end up being Elminster, he's powerful enough to trick you into feeling what you felt inside him.

Originally Posted by Niara
I hadn't actually realised that the dates around waterdeep lined up that well - I knew it was close, but hadn't looked into it specifically. Either way, I'll reiterate, again, just in case you've skimmed over it all the other times, that I've never denied the possibility that Gale is deceiving us in some way, and the Elminster idea is interesting... However, as before, there's nothing in the game at the moment that gives reasonable grounds for suspicion of this; there are lots of wizards in waterdeep.

I feel you're contradicting yourself here also this is why is called speculating, it doesn't have to be in the game for you to think, "Hey, could it be possible that this is the case?" That's the fun part of playing a game that has a deep story. Things can happen or people may show up where you're like, "Hmm, I wonder if this mean that or does this person have an ulterior motive?."

Originally Posted by Niara
What I will say is that efforts to speculate rationally without jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions are badly stymied by the fact that Larian lets all of their characters lie to us flawlessly whenever they want to, and we're not allowed to notice, or make a check, or call them out on it in any way, unless Larian wants us to, and that's really, deeply, unfair, especially since we are unable to keep anything back from any of them.

I feel like your making it complicated for someone to give you their reason for why they think that way. No metacontext for you. I know there are situation where we do confront our companions, not sure where you feel we are not allowed call them out. I don't see that as unfair in regards to our character story, the reason why we can't keep anything back is because our character doesn't really have a deep backstory, just the whole situation with the mindflayer.

Last edited by Lady Avyna; 04/11/21 08:42 AM.
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Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Sozz
Rampant speculation is no reason to get to such a row. Acknowledge that from where we are now, most things are still on the table and let's stop shaming people for speculating what that might be

My intention isn't to shame anyone. I apologize if it came out that way. What I will say is that, it seems some are very attached to characters and it's really hard to have a fair discussion where no matter what you say, the person will refuse to see it. It becomes hard to try to get the person to understand what you are trying to say.
Why don't you see it in another way: we get, what you are saying, we just have different opinions. Like you see Solas and Astarion as misunderstood and I see them as evil. I never did say, that your viewpoints are any less valid, Nor did Niara or anyone else. We just give arguments for our viewpoints as you do for yours.
You said a few times, when people tried to argue ( me included) , that they are dismissive, argumentative etc. and that just isn't the case.
I would like to discuss Solas further with you, because of course my opinion is totally different, but I'm weary, that I might be accused of something again.

The reason why I say it sounds dismissive or argumentative is because whenever I give my opinion on something, the response always comes off as if I'm wrong for thinking that, when it's just my opinion. There is no right or wrong answer with an opinion. Now, if I'm trying to state something as a fact, that's different. That can be refuted but it's hard to refute an opinion.

As for Solas, no, I don't see him as misunderstood. He's messed up for what he did and deceived everyone. As for Astarion, my opinion that he's misunderstood, comes from him being a vampire. I feel that just because he's a vampire does not mean that he HAS to be evil. He could change to be a more neutral person. To me his personality and the way he presents himself could be a defense mechanism based from what has happened to him. It could very well end up that he's evil or not but that remains to be seen.

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