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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Sozz
Rampant speculation is no reason to get to such a row. Acknowledge that from where we are now, most things are still on the table and let's stop shaming people for speculating what that might be

My intention isn't to shame anyone. I apologize if it came out that way. What I will say is that, it seems some are very attached to characters and it's really hard to have a fair discussion where no matter what you say, the person will refuse to see it. It becomes hard to try to get the person to understand what you are trying to say.
Why don't you see it in another way: we get, what you are saying, we just have different opinions. Like you see Solas and Astarion as misunderstood and I see them as evil. I never did say, that your viewpoints are any less valid, Nor did Niara or anyone else. We just give arguments for our viewpoints as you do for yours.
You said a few times, when people tried to argue ( me included) , that they are dismissive, argumentative etc. and that just isn't the case.
I would like to discuss Solas further with you, because of course my opinion is totally different, but I'm weary, that I might be accused of something again.

The reason why I say it sounds dismissive or argumentative is because whenever I give my opinion on something, the response always comes off as if I'm wrong for thinking that, when it's just my opinion. There is no right or wrong answer with an opinion. Now, if I'm trying to state something as a fact, that's different. That can be refuted but it's hard to refute an opinion.

As for Solas, no, I don't see him as misunderstood. He's messed up for what he did and deceived everyone. As for Astarion, my opinion that he's misunderstood, comes from him being a vampire. I feel that just because he's a vampire does not mean that he HAS to be evil. He could change to be a more neutral person. To me his personality and the way he presents himself could be a defense mechanism based from what has happened to him. It could very well end up that he's evil or not but that remains to be seen.

I'm sure, that every companion will have some quest, that will change their alignment, so yeah, it might be, that Astarion can become neutral, who knows. I see him as chaotic evil at the time of EA, but we haven't seen most of the big companion quests. I base that more on his general behavior and approval than on the fact, that he is a vampire. I play mostly good characters, who want to help, and Astarion is so not ok with that. That is my personal take on his alignment.

I agree, that Solas is pretty messed up and I think his racism comes from the fact, that he has a hard time dealing with the modern world and younger races.

I'm very ok with having totally different opinions and I don't want to talk you out of yours. That's often the peril of just seeing the written text, a lot of a persons intention might get lost.


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Originally Posted by fylimar
I'm sure, that every companion will have some quest, that will change their alignment, so yeah, it might be, that Astarion can become neutral, who knows. I see him as chaotic evil at the time of EA, but we haven't seen most of the big companion quests. I base that more on his general behavior and approval than on the fact, that he is a vampire. I play mostly good characters, who want to help, and Astarion is so not ok with that. That is my personal take on his alignment.

I agree, that Solas is pretty messed up and I think his racism comes from the fact, that he has a hard time dealing with the modern world and younger races.

I'm very ok with having totally different opinions and I don't want to talk you out of yours. That's often the peril of just seeing the written text, a lot of a persons intention might get lost.

I can agree with that. That's how it is with my companions as well when I do a good playthrough vs an evil playthrough.

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Solas being the traitor was advertised before the game even launched by placing him in the Judas position in the Last Supper promotional shot. Him being the Dread Wolf was incredibly obvious from his murals and the constant reference to him in the game world. And listening to Cole also made it obvious. They really beat you over the head with it in DAI. I am surprised that anyone was surprised by that reveal.

Regardless, I see nothing like that in this game. No hints at all.

I personally hope that if Gale does turn to out to be a liar, or betray you, or whatever…that it is because he is selfish.His own worst enemy. Not because he is some great evil or ancient wizard. That would be incredibly boring.

In terms of romance-// Compare Solas reveal to Alistair choosing the throne over you. Alistair’s choice huuuuuuuuurt because it felt personal and true to his character. Solas’s was expected and felt forced writing-wise to cheaply amp drama.

Also…the mirror scene dialogue is completely irrelevant. Those are choices for how YOU would play him, not how he IS. Or at most they shows the possible paths he *could* go down. I shudder to think what my more narcissistic aspect would wish for in a magic mirror…and I think I am generally decent human.

Also…this whole netherese magic thing was elegantly explained by an earlier poster in this thread with the pipe and water analogy. It was ignored completely I guess because it is pretty hard to argue that Gale is a wizard…not a sorcerer. Unless he is lying about that too…le gasp.

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Originally Posted by timebean
Solas being the traitor was advertised before the game even launched by placing him in the Judas position in the Last Supper promotional shot. Him being the Dread Wolf was incredibly obvious from his murals and the constant reference to him in the game world. And listening to Cole also made it obvious. They really beat you over the head with it in DAI. I am surprised that anyone was surprised by that reveal.

I didn't see the promotional as I played the game after release.

Originally Posted by timbean
Regardless, I see nothing like that in this game. No hints at all.

I was referring to their similarities in studies in magic which had a connection the the events in the games and not who or what they are.

Originally Posted by timebean
I personally hope that if Gale does turn to out to be a liar, or betray you, or whatever…that it is because he is selfish.His own worst enemy. Not because he is some great evil or ancient wizard. That would be incredibly boring.

I didn't suggest that either unless you are talking about the theory of Gale being Elminster. That would be boring if it's just that, but his betrayal could be for his undying love for the Goddess Mystra and willing to do anything for her. That's a selfish motivation.

Originally Posted by timebean
Also…the mirror scene dialogue is completely irrelevant. Those are choices for how YOU would play him, not how he IS. Or at most they shows the possible paths he *could* go down. I shudder to think what my more narcissistic aspect would wish for in a magic mirror…and I think I am generally decent human.

Yes, I know that is if you play as those characters but that doesn't mean that Larian is not giving you hints to what their motivations are. With Gale we see that he has two really big selfish ones compared to the other companions.

Originally Posted by timebean
Also…this whole netherese magic thing was elegantly explained by an earlier poster in this thread with the pipe and water analogy. It was ignored completely I guess because it is pretty hard to argue that Gale is a wizard…not a sorcerer. Unless he is lying about that too…le gasp.

From my end, I never said he was sorcerer but an arch-wizard.

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Lady Avyna, you've ignored the things I've said repeatedly, and you've continued to paint me as though I'm holding a stance which I am not. I know that may not be your intention, but that's my perspective and how I feel right now.

For example:

Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
You don't think it's possible that he could be lying?

I have already answered this question of yours three times or more. What else can I say, if you are not interested in taking my answer on board?

Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Again, he could be lying. Everything we know about him is based on what he tells you.

This one, directly in response to a quote of my words you made, wherein I literally reference a proof event, in game, that is outside of Gale himself... (Gale says: "if this doesn't get fed, we all explode", and then he dies, and it doesn't get fed and he's not alive to make a deal for a solution... and then we all explode, and get a game over, just as promised. He's not lying about that - it actually happens, legitimately, in game.)

==

There is no sense in me continuing with this if you are going to continue to act in this manner towards me. This will probably be my last attempt to communicate with you sensibly on this topic; if you'd rather not bother, I'll spoiler tag it, and you can feel vindicated if you'd like to and if it would make you happy. I have more important things to be doing with my time, unfortunately... I've already spent far more energy on this than I should have. I am, actually, exhausted, and I haven't finished any of the actual game-related work I was meant to get done today. If this feels snarky, I'm sorry, it's not meant to, I'm just out of spoons.

At this point, it looks like you main line of reasoning is "It's possible we're being deceived" ... Okay... here we go:



"It's possible."

Anyone could be lying about anything. We could be a giant pink elephant dreaming all of this. Everyone could actually be rebel illithids in disguise. This might actually be a giant roleplay LARP using high-tech holo-deck effects on a spaceship, with everyone present merely playing roles in a fantasy setting. All of these things are possible. In order for a supposition of one of these things to be fairly worth entertaining, however, there must be evidence to support it or to point in its direction, and it must be reasonable.

It's possible that Astarion could be Cyric, secretly using a foppish vampire guise to spy on Selune, who is using the guise of a brainwashed Shar cultist, and she can't help making a mockery of doing so because she thinks it's funny. Gale might actually be Azuth who is also here to keep an eye on Selune, whom he actually believes is really Shar, because he's concerned about his only recently restored divinity and he wants to make sure that nothing untoward happens with the Shadow-weave... Meanwhile it's possible that Torm tagged along because it seemed like there was some kind of god convention going on and he was not about to miss a good fight. It's possible his real motive for pretending to be the famous Blade of Frontiers is that he's concerned about Vlakith's reasons for intruding upon the material plane and suspects it's something to do with an attempt to capture Azuth's divinity for herself - it's happened before, and if Asmodeus can do it, so can she, or so he worries she thinks. It's possible that, in reality, Vlakith is only venturing to the material plane because someone stole her phylactery, sealed it inside a shielding reliquary, and sent it away; she's found out that Selune has it now, but doesn't know how to safely get it back and recover it yet, because she doesn't know the how to open the device, yet. None of them are sure why the party is being led by a mortal, except that none of them wants to actually draw too much attention to themselves, but they are all interested in getting on the mortal's good side, just to make sure there's no suspicion cast on them. They're all doing a pretty rotten job of it. The real secret comes out only at the end - the mortal isn't actually a mortal, either, it's actually Bhaal, Bane and Myrkul who are temporarily cohabiting a single mortal life (of which Jergal is curious about their opinions on the value of...), but at the last dialogue option we'll get to pick exactly what their reason for doing so actually was.

It's Possible. Is it being possible a reasonable grounds to hold suspicion towards these characters? No, it's not, because nothing presented thus far supports the idea in a reasonable way.

Anyone who treated these characters with suspicion and claimed that there was something sus about them, and that they were suspicious and leery of them... and then said that their suspicion was on the grounds that it was possible that the above was actually the case, would get raised eyebrows and not taken very seriously. Most would assume they were joking, and ask what the real reason for their suspicion was. This is because most sensible people understand that "It's Possible", if it can be used to justify a particular case for suspicion against someone, can equally be used to justify any amount of suspicion about any one and everyone over anything and everything.

So, yes, it's possible Gale is deceiving us in the entirety, and that the majority of what he has told us so far is entirely false. It's Possible. Just as virtually anything at all is possible, when you bring "we might be being deceived" into the equation. Literally anything I could think of to suggest becomes possible with the simple caveat of "But everything else we might be being told might be false!". It's possible, but not reasonable as grounds to treat him suspiciously, for the same reason that the above paragraph is not reasonable grounds for treating the party as a whole suspiciously.

In a normal game of D&D, there's a tool that exists for players to work out when they are being lied to... it's the insight skill. We get to use it, sometimes... when people lie to us or deceive us in game, we often get a chance to discover this and act on it.

It is made painfully obvious to us at several point in the game that we cannot keep secrets from our companions because they know via the tadpole anyway. We are rarely allowed to lie to them directly, and even in the few cases where we can lie about something, we get immediately called out as lying, with no checks or rolls. Our companions, on the other hand, are allowed to deceive us over any number of things, and it's a coin flip whether we're allowed to find out with an insight check or not. We often are not, and must simply accept what is said to us even if we the player know we are being lied to. Yes, I can supply instances of this as citation if needed, but I simply do not have the energy to do so right now, so instead I'm just going to ask you to take on good faith with reference to my sterling record on these forums for never stating anything as fact about the contents of the game that I cannot also back up, that they exist in game and are there.

So, yes, it's 'possible' that Gale is completely deceiving us, because of this unfair imbalance... he might well be allowed to lie and deceive us about everything without ever having to make any checks or rolls and without us ever being given even the slightest, barest wisp of an opportunity to find out, not even when we probe his mind and successfully read his thoughts without getting detected... it's possible, just as the spaceship holo-deck supposition is 'possible'. It's possible that he is carefully curating every scrap of everything we get from him, including the insights and successes - that when we succeed he deliberately shows us something different, that he had pre-prepared, compared to showing us nothing, or something lesser, if we didn't do quite as well, which he had also pre-prepared just for us... it's possible that his entire emotional state and the fluctuations in it that we feel and cause are entirely fabricated, controlled with deliberate curation because he's able to literally control how fast his heart beats and align that with the emotions he's decided that he's going to pretend to be feeling, when he wants to, and it's all part of that carefully constructed facade. And that he's devised a way to use powerful magic to emulate the effects of having an aberrant ilithid tadpole in his mind, including letting other people study it and gaining ilithid psionic powers from it... and that he's able to maintain all of that while being reduced in power to the equivalent of a fresh-faced adventurer... and is as weak and fragile as one, enough to get killed by a stray goblin arrow... and is only exerting a small fraction of his magical capabilities in order to not draw suspicion... and will even go so far as to let himself and others be killed in order to maintain this facade... And that he's also so absolutely perfectly duplicitous in the extreme that he's able to do all of this without letting even the tiniest wisp of any of it ever be detectable to anyone at all, ever... It's possible. Is it reasonable to say "I find him suspicious because that (the aforementioned) is possible."? No, it's not.

So, if you want to say that you are suspicious of Gale, and you think something is off about him... and your reasoning is that "It's possible that he's lying to us about everything", then as above, I'm going to raise my eyebrow at you, and not take you very seriously... because that's a pink elephant dream case. I'm going to think you're joking, and I'm going to say to you "Yes but literally everyone could be lying about virtually everything, that's a permanent given, and you're not equally suspicious of everyone all the time - you singled out this individual..." And then I'm going to ask you, "So seriously, what's your real reason for feeling suspicious of him?" And the funny thing is, it could be as simple as "I'm just naturally suspicious of that 'type' of person"... and that'd be fine! It'd be a genuine legitimate explanation... Again, sorry if this seems harsh or snarky, I'm too tired.

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Who knew this thread would turn into a Gale fest? 😁

I agree with Sozz. So much room for speculation for all of them.

Gale could be Elminster.
Shadowheart could be Selune. Wouldn't be the first time Shar stole Selune's avatar's memories.
Astarion could be Cazador.
Wyll could be... Um... Hmmm... Okay. Don't have one for him.
Lae'zel could be Vlaakith or Gith.
And Tav could be Gorion's Ward!

All changed by the Second Sundering...

Not being totally serious, btw. The point is just that it could be literally anything at this point.

Fun fact. Did you know there is a spell that can bring a character back to life in a totally different body as a totally different race and sex? Something to think about.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Lady Avyna, you've ignored the things I've said repeatedly, and you've continued to paint me as though I'm holding a stance which I am not. I know that may not be your intention, but that's my perspective and how I feel right now.

I didn't ignore you. I know what you said but the example you gave was about Mystra and how he could possibly used you to get back with her. I didn't mention that back to you because that wouldn't be a big impact to the story.

Originally Posted by Niara
This one, directly in response to a quote of my words you made, wherein I literally reference a proof event, in game, that is outside of Gale himself... (Gale says: "if this doesn't get fed, we all explode", and then he dies, and it doesn't get fed and he's not alive to make a deal for a solution... and then we all explode, and get a game over, just as promised. He's not lying about that - it actually happens, legitimately, in game.)

I haven't denied Gale his artifacts so if that happens when you don't then I stand corrected in that point.

Originally Posted by Niara
There is no sense in me continuing with this if you are going to continue to act in this manner towards me. This will probably be my last attempt to communicate with you sensibly on this topic; if you'd rather not bother, I'll spoiler tag it, and you can feel vindicated if you'd like to and if it would make you happy.

What manner are you talking about? I'm not doing or saying anything bad to you. First of all, this isn't a debate. There is no need for "vindication" it's just a game. If anything, I'll say that you are too emotionally attached that you are now getting defensive to my responses and are assuming things about me.

Originally Posted by Niara
Anyone who treated these characters with suspicion and claimed that there was something sus about them, and that they were suspicious and leery of them... and then said that their suspicion was on the grounds that it was possible that the above was actually the case, would get raised eyebrows and not taken very seriously. Most would assume they were joking, and ask what the real reason for their suspicion was. This is because most sensible people understand that "It's Possible", if it can be used to justify a particular case for suspicion against someone, can equally be used to justify any amount of suspicion about any one and everyone over anything and everything.

You're treating this like a court case. Relax, it's just a game. It's okay to theorize about characters just like people do when watching a show. You don't have to get all technical about it.

Originally Posted by Niara
So, if you want to say that you are suspicious of Gale, and you think something is off about him... and your reasoning is that "It's possible that he's lying to us about everything", then as above, I'm going to raise my eyebrow at you, and not take you very seriously... because that's a pink elephant dream case. I'm going to think you're joking, and I'm going to say to you "Yes but literally everyone could be lying about virtually everything, that's a permanent given, and you're not equally suspicious of everyone all the time - you singled out this individual..." And then I'm going to ask you, "So seriously, what's your real reason for feeling suspicious of him?" And the funny thing is, it could be as simple as "I'm just naturally suspicious of that 'type' of person"... and that'd be fine! It'd be a genuine legitimate explanation... Again, sorry if this seems harsh or snarky, I'm too tired.

Are you assuming that I'm not suspicious of other companions because I happened to questioned Gale? I can do the same for the others. You claim that if I just had a natural suspicion of Gale you would be fine because you would consider that a genuine explanation. Well, it's obvious you are not because you have made a big deal about people not trusting Gale, especially me, a natural suspicion from what is going on in the story. We can give you our theories based on things we experience in the game but you get upset because it's not how YOU see it. That's not how it's works. It makes me feel like you are too emotionally attached to the character of Gale that you don't want to accept any negative theories regarding him.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Who knew this thread would turn into a Gale fest? 😁

I agree with Sozz. So much room for speculation for all of them.

Gale could be Elminster.
Shadowheart could be Selune. Wouldn't be the first time Shar stole Selune's avatar's memories.
Astarion could be Cazador.
Wyll could be... Um... Hmmm... Okay. Don't have one for him.
Lae'zel could be Vlaakith or Gith.
And Tav could be Gorion's Ward!

All changed by the Second Sundering...

Not being totally serious, btw. The point is just that it could be literally anything at this point.

Fun fact. Did you know there is a spell that can bring a character back to life in a totally different body as a totally different race and sex? Something to think about.

Yes, my intention is not for these conversations to make people get emotionally invested to the point that is becomes something negative. It's just to discuss what we like or do not like as fans or not of these characters. There are so many theories we can come up with but at the end they are just theories and we still have 2 more acts to be released. There is still a possibility that anything can happen in the game as it's so early but it's supposed to be fun to theorize what could possibly happen. Fans do this all the time with tv shows between episodes.

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I've read the explosion of posts that's occurred since last I visited, and I gotta say, my dear fellows, this thread is giving me severe flashbacks to being a tiny teenage nerdling and arguing about the x-mens and the dee-zees right now :P

Oh but I am sorry but I gotta stoke the fire. I think that if Gale is somebody else, then it's not Elminster he is going to turn out to be. It's Karsus himself.


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Originally Posted by Dexai
I've read the explosion of posts that's occurred since last I visited, and I gotta say, my dear fellows, this thread is giving me severe flashbacks to being a tiny teenage nerdling and arguing about the x-mens and the dee-zees right now :P

Oh but I am sorry but I gotta stoke the fire. I think that if Gale is somebody else, then it's not Elminster he is going to turn out to be. It's Karsus himself.

I don't know much about Karsus. What would make him a candidate?

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Karsus was the Netherese magus who fucked up everything real bad and ruined magic for everyone forever. Before his eponymous Folly there was much less limits on magic, and the tyrannical and continent-spanning Netherese Empire had grown strong and prosperous through mastering it -- controlling the world through giant floating cities for centuries. Then Karsus, an arch-mage among arch-mages, performed a ritual he had designed to cast a spell that would allow him to supplant Mystril (the original goddess of magic) and become a god in his own right. And, well, he succeeded, in part, but not in the way he had expected. He stole most of her power, but was unable to control it, and magic went haywire everywhere. Sacrificing her own life, Mystril cut the ability to access the weave from the world in order to keep Karsus from destroying the world through his failure, and functional magic did a big stop.

The Netherese Empire, being dependant on said functional magic, fell in an instant -- their flying cities literally falling to the ground, killing tens or hundred of thousands, and causing untold natural and magical catastrophes as they crashed. Karsus was destroyed, or turned to stone, or something, I don't remember.

Mystril was reincarnated as Mystra, the new goddess of magic, and magic was restored to the world. She decided that she was never again going to let people have access to that kind of magical power, however, and rewove the rules of magic so that magic just couldn't do that kind of stuff any more.

Even though I mostly said Gale was Karsus as a joke (though I definitely believe it is more likely than him being Elminster) I think that whatever he did to cause his conditions was something he shouldn't really have been able to do by abusing forbidden Nether knowledge of some kind that he might have gleamed from off of Mystra. Likely something similar to Karsus' Folly i nature.


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Originally Posted by Dexai
Karsus was the Netherese magus who fucked up everything real bad and ruined magic for everyone forever. Before his eponymous Folly there was much less limits on magic, and the tyrannical and continent-spanning Netherese Empire had grown strong and prosperous through mastering it -- controlling the world through giant floating cities for centuries. Then Karsus, an arch-mage among arch-mages, performed a ritual he had designed to cast a spell that would allow him to supplant Mystril (the original goddess of magic) and become a god in his own right. And, well, he succeeded, in part, but not in the way he had expected. He stole most of her power, but was unable to control it, and magic went haywire everywhere. Sacrificing her own life, Mystril cut the ability to access the weave from the world in order to keep Karsus from destroying the world through his failure, and functional magic did a big stop.

The Netherese Empire, being dependant on said functional magic, fell in an instant -- their flying cities literally falling to the ground, killing tens or hundred of thousands, and causing untold natural and magical catastrophes as they crashed. Karsus was destroyed, or turned to stone, or something, I don't remember.

Mystril was reincarnated as Mystra, the new goddess of magic, and magic was restored to the world. She decided that she was never again going to let people have access to that kind of magical power, however, and rewove the rules of magic so that magic just couldn't do that kind of stuff any more.

Even though I mostly said Gale was Karsus as a joke (though I definitely believe it is more likely than him being Elminster) I think that whatever he did to cause his conditions was something he shouldn't really have been able to do by abusing forbidden Nether knowledge of some kind that he might have gleamed from off of Mystra. Likely something similar to Karsus' Folly i nature.

I see. Thanks for the information. Even if said theories about Gale don't turn out to be true. He definitely did something where Mystra ended up leaving him. I do wonder what was so bad but of course we have to wait for more content.

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Originally Posted by Dexai
Karsus was the Netherese magus who fucked up everything real bad and ruined magic for everyone forever. Before his eponymous Folly there was much less limits on magic, and the tyrannical and continent-spanning Netherese Empire had grown strong and prosperous through mastering it -- controlling the world through giant floating cities for centuries. Then Karsus, an arch-mage among arch-mages, performed a ritual he had designed to cast a spell that would allow him to supplant Mystril (the original goddess of magic) and become a god in his own right. And, well, he succeeded, in part, but not in the way he had expected. He stole most of her power, but was unable to control it, and magic went haywire everywhere. Sacrificing her own life, Mystril cut the ability to access the weave from the world in order to keep Karsus from destroying the world through his failure, and functional magic did a big stop.

The Netherese Empire, being dependant on said functional magic, fell in an instant -- their flying cities literally falling to the ground, killing tens or hundred of thousands, and causing untold natural and magical catastrophes as they crashed. Karsus was destroyed, or turned to stone, or something, I don't remember.

Mystril was reincarnated as Mystra, the new goddess of magic, and magic was restored to the world. She decided that she was never again going to let people have access to that kind of magical power, however, and rewove the rules of magic so that magic just couldn't do that kind of stuff any more.

Even though I mostly said Gale was Karsus as a joke (though I definitely believe it is more likely than him being Elminster) I think that whatever he did to cause his conditions was something he shouldn't really have been able to do by abusing forbidden Nether knowledge of some kind that he might have gleamed from off of Mystra. Likely something similar to Karsus' Folly i nature.

I'de be surprised if they even name drop Karsus in the game. If i'm not mistaken, Mystra has reincarnated at least another two times since that happened.

In fact, slightly off-topic, the one Gale fell in love with is the reincarnation of Nightingale, or whatever her human name was, correct?

Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I see. Thanks for the information. Even if said theories about Gale don't turn out to be true. He definitely did something where Mystra ended up leaving him. I do wonder what was so bad but of course we have to wait for more content.

Pretty sure Gale himself states she simply got bored of him, which is what lead him to trying to impress her by researching Netherese magic.

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
[You are] projecting other characters' story arcs onto Gale, when Gale could actually be a Varric or Alistair or Vivienne. There's a difference between "accepting the possibility that a character can be lying and have hidden motives" and "believing that the character is lying and has hidden motives." [...]
[You are] considering meta-context.

I'm not claiming to believe that he is already bad what I'm saying is that based on some of the things that I have seen and his study of Netherese magic and like you said, the tadpoles also have Netherese magic. There is the possibility that he knows more than what he is allowing you to know. GM4Him even mentioned Elminster who is the most powerful wizard in all of Faerun and he is also able to disguise himself. That's why I also say, that if Larian introduces Elminster he could possibly be Gale in disguise.
Many of your arguments about Gale being untrustworthy are speculation based off of FR lore and/or characters from entirely different franchises. I'd argue that it's impossible to disentangle your view of Gale from these sources because they affect your gut reaction to him and thus color your every interaction with him. (If the true reason why you distrust Gale is just a gut feeling because of your gut reaction to his smarminess, that's fine).

Even in the quoted paragraph responding to me, you use as evidence "There is the possibility that [Gale] knows more." Yes of course there's a possibility; Gale could be lying about the bomb, he could be lying about his knowledge of the tadpole via Netherese magic, he could be lying about everything about him. But this is purely speculation, and shouldn't be used as evidence for him being that way.

Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Relax, it's just a game. It's okay to theorize about characters just like people do when watching a show. You don't have to get all technical about it.
It's perfectly fine to speculate about characters. And it's perfectly fine to re-interpret their in-game actions and personalities based off of those theories. But if you want to have a discussion about anything, it's important to define the conversation and acknowledge your biases/sources. And using speculation (particularly referencing other franchises) in a conversation about how the character is presented in the source material won't ever be a productive discussion.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Many of your arguments about Gale being untrustworthy are speculation based off of FR lore and/or characters from entirely different franchises. I'd argue that it's impossible to disentangle your view of Gale from these sources because they affect your gut reaction to him and thus color your every interaction with him. (If the true reason why you distrust Gale is just a gut feeling because of your gut reaction to his smarminess, that's fine).

Even in the quoted paragraph responding to me, you use as evidence "There is the possibility that [Gale] knows more." Yes of course there's a possibility; Gale could be lying about the bomb, he could be lying about his knowledge of the tadpole via Netherese magic, he could be lying about everything about him. But this is purely speculation, and shouldn't be used as evidence for him being that way.

I don't understand the constant need for "evidence" for someone giving their opinion on their observation of a character. I have to admit that I'm starting to feel a little attacked here. I had a same situation with two other people. This is getting ridiculous. You and everyone else can have any opinion on a character but the farthest I'll go is ask why? For example, someone mention Shadowheart possibly being a Selune follower brainwashed to to think she follows Shar. Reason? She constantly expresses disgust every time she sees a Selune statue. I am fine with that reason. I don't understand why my reason or so unbelievable. It's actually unfair.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
It's perfectly fine to speculate about characters. And it's perfectly fine to re-interpret their in-game actions and personalities based off of those theories. But if you want to have a discussion about anything, it's important to define the conversation and acknowledge your biases/sources. And using speculation (particularly referencing other franchises) in a conversation about how the character is presented in the source material won't ever be a productive discussion.

Again, there is nothing wrong with using other sources to make a point. The problem is you don't like what I have to say or my opinion for that matter. I gave my opinion and my reason for that based from the game itself. That wasn't good enough, so I looked for another source (Dragon Age, created by the original creators of Baldur's Gate) and even lore from the Forgotten Realms to make a point for my previous reason. That also wasn't good enough. So, what gives? If we are talking about a character that maybe you don't like and you give a basic reason, and I tell you "Oh no, you need to give me a some sensible evidence for your reason." That's asking a little too much. I should be fine with what you said.

I gave my main reason for making a speculation of Gale possibly being a deceiver. For some reason, that was unacceptable. I feel like I'm in court pleading my case. This is ridiculous.

(Sorry, if I'm coming off strong but I'm getting tired of this.)

Last edited by Lady Avyna; 04/11/21 04:26 PM.
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Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I see. Thanks for the information. Even if said theories about Gale don't turn out to be true. He definitely did something where Mystra ended up leaving him. I do wonder what was so bad but of course we have to wait for more content.

Pretty sure Gale himself states she simply got bored of him, which is what lead him to trying to impress her by researching Netherese magic.


Didn't he try to cast a spell first and he failed, then she left him? I think that's what he said because he was trying to impress her.

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Originally Posted by Innateagle
Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I see. Thanks for the information. Even if said theories about Gale don't turn out to be true. He definitely did something where Mystra ended up leaving him. I do wonder what was so bad but of course we have to wait for more content.

Pretty sure Gale himself states she simply got bored of him, which is what lead him to trying to impress her by researching Netherese magic.


Didn't he try to cast a spell first and he failed, then she left him? I think that's what he said because he was trying to impress her.

Nope, you got that backwards.

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I just want to reiterate that the reason for this thread is to talk about the companions and how we see them. This is why I titled it "Companions mixed fan base". There is no right or wrong OPINION about any companion. You can believe what you want but also be open minded to someone else's opinion. There is no reason to be dismissive of someone's opinion. We can ask each other why we think a certain way and maybe even to elaborate but it should not go farther than that. To the point where we have to seek evidence to an opinion, speculation or theory.

Let me write the definition of those words:

Opinion- a view or judgment formed about something, not necessarily based on fact or knowledge

Speculation- the forming of a theory or conjecture without firm evidence

Theory- an idea used to account for a situation or justify a course of action

Neither of those require evidence. That's the fun part of it.

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i'll play (to get back on topic)

Wyll : potential to be interesting, but because he's introduced so late, i didn't have room for him and psychologically, i just sort of ignore him

Shadowheart : has potential to not be snarky all the time if Larian continues to make her nicer. I'm fine with dark past, but when everyone is snarky and angry all the time, it's not fun

Lae'zel : what you see is what you get. Naive, strong willed. as soon as i can have a good fighter, she's dead.

Astarion : i don't know, he hasn't survived past our first meeting ever

Gale : seems good on the surface but is kind of a dick. I'll be passing on him as well when a good mage comes along

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Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
I don't understand the constant need for "evidence" for someone giving their opinion on their observation of a character. I have to admit that I'm starting to feel a little attacked here. I had a same situation with two other people. This is getting ridiculous. You and everyone else can have any opinion on a character but the farthest I'll go is ask why? For example, someone mention Shadowheart possibly being a Selune follower brainwashed to to think she follows Shar. Reason? She constantly expresses disgust every time she sees a Selune statue. I am fine with that reason. I don't understand why my reason or so unbelievable. It's actually unfair.
Of course you need evidence for your opinion of a character. All opinions are formed by something, and it helps others to understand your opinion when you explain that something. I've said multiple times that your opinion is a perfectly fine one to have, but others' opinions (who are just considering Gale's actions and dialogue in BG3) are just as valid.

Originally Posted by Lady Avyna
Again, there is nothing wrong with using other sources to make a point. The problem is you don't like what I have to say or my opinion for that matter. I gave my opinion and my reason for that based from the game itself. That wasn't good enough, so I looked for another source to make a point for my previous reason. That also wasn't good enough. So, what gives? If we are talking about a character that maybe you don't like and you give a basic reason, and I tell you "Oh no, you need to give me a some sensible evidence for your reason." That's asking a little too much. I should be fine with what you said.

I gave my main reason for making a speculation of Gale possibly being a deceiver. For some reason, that was unacceptable. I feel like I'm in court pleading my case. This is ridiculous.

(Sorry, if I'm coming off strong but I'm getting tired of this.)
I'm sorry, but you're a little bit playing the victim here. I didn't say I dislike your opinion. In fact, multiple times I've said it's okay to hold the opinion that Gale might not be trustworthy, that it's fine to speculate so, and that it's not unlikely that Gale will turn on us eventually. Taking the other companions' evilness, Larian design decisions, and typical story tropes, sure he could very well turn out to be more evil than presented and be a Solas-like character. I think it's likely he will.

I'm just trying to explain why you've gotten into this situation with multiple people: some people (not just you: I'm not trying to single you out, you're just the most frequent poster ITT) are trying to speculate about Gale's possible storylines, whereas others are discussing Gale solely as he is in-game. There is nothing wrong with using other sources to make a point, but any point made using outside sources is ~irrelevant to people who are examining the in-game character without considering outside context. And no amount of additional other sources will change that.

You're allowed to hold any opinion you want. But similarly, others are allowed to hold their opinions regardless of what you think or how many different arguments you present if they don't find them convincing. And when two sides are talking past each other, ofc people aren't going to change their opinions and are going to get frustrated that the other side isn't getting it.

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