Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General [NEW] Updated pool - Two leveled spells in single turn

So ... i have done some research (read as: i played video on youtube explaning this rule).
And both i and my source come to same conclusion ... it should be forbidden to cast two leveled spells within single turn using action AND bonus action ...

On the other hand there was specificaly mentioned that Eldrich Knights should totally be able to cast two spells in single turn when they used Action Surge since there is no Bonus Action used ...
So logicaly if i understand this corectly we should be able to bypass this rule by drinking Potion of Speed using our Bonus Action instead of casting with it.

What puzzles me a little is that there was specificaly mentioned Cleric using both Healing Word and Cure Wounds should be forbidden by the same rule.
Yet i dont remember so many people complaining about Cleric being abke to do that as there is now complaining about Sorcerer being OP.


ANYWAY there is no suggestion here 😆
The person in that video said that this is so commonly missinterpretted rule ... so many groups he know simply ignores it to play more smoothly. So ... i just wish to find out point of view of our curently active majority. So i created a pool!

There is new updated pool right here: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=800167#Post800167

So what would you preffer? single choice
	DnD rules followed ... forbid two spells using action and bonus action.
	Dnd rukes ignored ... allow it (aka change nothing)
	Add toggle in difficiulty settings ...
Votes accepted starting: 11/11/21 08:27 AM
View Results

Allow it (as BG3 does now)! I love casting misty step + another spell or a healing spell + another spell.

If we go by the rules, then no: haste doesn't give the character another main action to spend on anything they want. Also if we go by the rules drinking potion should be a bonus action (that change I don't think is an issue)


Chaining powerful spells can become a massive balance problem in later levels (that's why part of community is so desperate to get to play with level5 characters - as this is where multiattack becomes a thing. I am not looking forward to having enemy wizards chaining fireballs at my team - and then warriors pushing off cliffs any remagning survivors.

The reason you should stick to the D&D core (in this case) is that at level 5 and a haste potion you can cast 4 fireballs in one round if you have 6 sorcery points and the circlet that give a bonus action with fire damage spells. I shouldn't need to explain why casting 4 fireballs in one round is ridiculous, even 2 would delete the goblin camp.

I do understand this makes spending 3 sorcery points on a quicken spell somewhat esoteric and pointless in most cases. I mean you could throw something and cast a fireball I guess. Haste doesn't allow two spells per round either. This is again something homebrew screwing up th action economy.

What would work pretty well with core rules is - haste pot, quicken spell, hex, scorching ray with the fire damage circlet, dual hand crossbows on a high dex drow sorc. Hand crowwbows would hit for a potential 2d6x3 then +6d6+3d6 from scorching ray. So 15d6 in one round at level 4 is pretty mean. Fireball x4 would hit for 32d6 to everything in the blast radius.

Nah ... i mean if this rule would be implemented ... but everything else (specificaly Potion of Speed effect) would remain the same.

I was talking about BG-3 scenario, not tabletop.
Could have say that more clearly tho.

I udnerstand this ...
Even tho i still believe that the fact we are able to heal twice as effective by allowing our clerics to use both healing spells at once also disturbs ballance (at least i usualy can get Shadowheart from 1hp to almost full by using them both).

That is the question here isnt it?
Sure, level 5 sorcerer would be able to obliterate whole Goblin camp within single turn ... on the other hand, he would be able without this change too.

I mean, i get why people dislike it, but i kinda like the idea that Sorcerer is candle that burns twice brighter compared to Wizard, but also half the time.
In other words ... if you wish to spend all your powerfull spellslots to "faster" (since that is effectively the only difference, i mean there is no way that Goblin Camp would provide any real threat for level 5 Sorcerer, is it?) kill residents of Goblin Camp ... be my guest.
But count on that you will need twice as much Long Rests to remain effective.

I can litteraly hear those people who are demanding more restrictive resting as they say that this is not a problem, since there is enough food in this game for even Thrice as much Long rests ... but note that food is not the only problem, coming back to camp is for many (and yes im aware that this word means "not everyone") simply anoying so they try to avoid that by themselves.

I dont understand this example ...
I thought that if you are unable to cast two leveled spells in single turn, and therefore you should not be able to cast Hex and Scorching Ray, no? O_o

Hey Ragnarok,

Interesting topic... I need to check this too hmmm... Not 100 % sure, but I think Solasta might be guilty of this too. You are talking about 2 leveled spells right?, e.g. lvl 2 guied bolt followed by a lvl 2 healing word as a bonus action right? Or does it also count for example, misty stepping my wizard up a ledge and then casting a lvl 2 magic missile or a acid arrow?

need to check with my lvl 10 party on solasta near endgame to be sure. Could very well be that I remember wrongly lol.

Hey Kimuriel, glad you find it interesting.
I feel the urge to state that i dont concider Solasta to be relevant to this topic in any way, i gues there is lot of games (and lots of sessions) where people ignore this (or some other) rule, what matters me here is how BG-3 will implement it.

And while i welcome and discusion about this topic, main (and to be brutaly honest, practicaly the only) reason for existence of this topic has ben to create pool, so we can see in clear numbers wich option would curently active members prefer.
And even that was only bcs i was curious about result.

Yes, that would be it ...
Only its about "two leveled spells" not "two spells level 2"

So even casting Guiding Bolt lvl 3/2/1 and then Healing Word lvl 3/2/1 would be wrong ...

Exact wording for rule is:

Seems like a good idea to implement this rule though, as it would make you think about how you use your spells more. Overall I think the closer you can be to core DnD (without compromising your artistic license too much), the more enjoyable it gets in general. And what you suggest, to me at least, does not seem to bothersome anyway. Even if they decrease the amount of food you find in the world, you would still be able to find enough stuff to do your long rest.

Slighly off topic here, I haven't tried this spell on BG 3 really, does Goodberry and create food give you permanent rations/food in BG3? If not I really hope they will add that.

Which spells should are usually a bonus action under 5e anyway?

and just to float a balloon idea here, would any of you guys consider it a bad idea to add areas where you cannot rest at all?

I think, but I'm not entirely convinced, that limiting spells to one spell per turn (and free cantrips) might be the best way to go, for balances sake. It seems likely to me that extra attacks will be implemented as extra actions (just like the extra attack from Haste is implemented right now), and the idea of an EK throwing out 5 (action, action, Surge, action, action, Haste action) spells in one turn -- 5/6thsof their spell slots at level 7 -- is a bit much, even if it's a niche case.

Another reasonable way to limit it, in my mind, that would let casters use more magic on their turn without enabling EK (or fighter/caster multiclasses) carpet bombing would be to limit it to one spell per action type. So a Hasted wizard could potentially Misty Step (bonus action) away from melee, throw a Fireball (action), but then not be able to throw a second Fireball with his Haste action but have to lob a cantrip at the enemy instead.

Casting more than one leveled spell per turn is already such an obvious balance problem. Of course D&D rules need to be followed here.

We have examples of Sorcerers effortlessly soloing the most difficult encounters in the game without enemies even getting a turn. Double surprise rounds contribute to that as well and need to be fixed.

And spellcasters are still "weak" at these levels. The alpha strikes will get exponentially more powerful at every new spell level.

If Larian insist on keeping this in because "being OP is fun", this nonsense needs to be contained in lower difficulty settings.

5e only has rules against using both your action and bonus action to cast leveled spells on the same turn. It's perfectly legal per raw for a an EK to cast two spells the same turn if they use Action Surge. It's a bit of a blind spot in the system honestly.

By the time EKs get Fireball at level 13 it's probably not as gamebreaking. I guess the "power build" in BG3 could be a Sorcerer 9 / Fighter 2 that could erase all encounters with an alpha strike before they even get a turn. I'm afraid Larian would just consider this "fun" and then the "if you don't like it don't use it" crowd would appear.

I hope they don’t add this rule to BG3!!!

Rag you're missing an important option in your poll that is an intermediate step between D&D rules and Larian's current implementation.

Allow casting an action & bonus action spell in the same turn EXCEPT when the bonus action spell is from Sorcerer's Quicken.

Hex/reapply is a bonus action just like hunters mark. They are intended to be cast before an action.

The thing is what happens when you meet a level 5 NPC sorcerer? If you can do it so can they.

+1 for following 5E D&D on this one.

I'm usually pretty open to adjustments to the rules to make for better gameplay, but the multiple levelled spells will cause a pretty big imbalance issue at later levels IMO, especially since Resting is 100% player controlled. With the way Haste is currently implemented (which also needs to be fixed), a Fighter 2 / Sorcerer X can drop 4x action spells (action, action surge, quickened bonus action, haste action) in one round, BEFORE the extra bonus-action shenanigans you get with the recently implemented items.

Combine this with how Stealh/Surprise is currently handled (way too much in the player's favor IMO), it's pretty encounter breaking.

I get that the spellcasting rules is probably one of the more complicated 5E rules and can definitely throw some beginners off, but it's pretty fundamental to the system from a balance standpoint. Also, I think players are more than capable of learning/understanding this rule after potential initial confusion. Unlike Tabletop, since it's governed by game system, it's not like you have to actively remember the ruling - the game does that for you.

A potential compromise I might be willing to try is the Casting Rules used in Critical Role season 1. Essentially, it's you can cast multiple levelled spells per turn via action/bonus action, but once you've casted one spell, your other spells are limited to level 2 or below. This still lets players have more flexibility and things to do, and does put a cap on the overpowerness. However, this change would STILL throw off balance between casters/martials, and more balancing decisions will need to be made if they want to apply this.

Easiest way forward is just to apply the PnP rules on this one.

EK using action surge doesn't seem like a huge problem to me. They are quarter casters, so they have a fairly hard limit on the type of spells they can use, and the action surge itself is a fairly limited resource.

With multiclassing you could give action surge to a sorcerer, but at the cost of 2 levels of spell progression. That is a strong multiclass, but losing that spell progression hurts.

On the other hand, casting two spells per round is something that a sorcerer (or a wizard with haste) could potentially do far more often than once per rest. Keep in mind that the rule is based on experience going back to 3.5 edition D&D where casters just dominated the game once they survived early levels. Cantrip + spell is still strong (remember that firebolt scales with level, you get 2d10 starting at level 5). If you dip a pair of warlock levels you can get eldritch blast with charisma added per hit (so 2d10 + 2 X cha at level 5). Even doing that twice per round (no spell) is pretty strong single target at level 5.

So... my opinion is that they should go with core... and let people mod in 2 spells per round if they want to.

You would still be able to do that ...
Only the second spell would need to be cantrip.

Like Misty Step + Firebolt ...
Or Healing Spell + Sacret Flame ...

Really? I expected this to be implemented by adding ability that will do two strikes instead of one ...
(BTW i was unable to find it, but should we be able to attack two separate targets with multiattack or not?)

I dare to presume Surge also restores only one Action, just as it does now (doesnt it? didnt try on patch 6) while under effect of potion.

I cant quite imagine how would you like to explain this rule to new players.

I disagree ...
Im allways against difficiulty settings "contain" any toggleable option. :-/

You should be able to turn this on/off even on Hard, if that difficiulty gives you power for enemies you want. :P

Hmm ... interesting suggestion, but im not adding it. :-/

It would be unfair to let everyone else abuse absence of rule, while you will be punishing the only class that actualy need to spend some resource to abuse it.

Im allways for options, but those options should aply same to everyone ... not single ruleset for Sorcerer, and second ruleset for everyone else, that is just wrong. :-/

Reaply maybe ... dunno, have to keep researching.
But Hex is regular leveled spell ... same as Misty Step, same as Healing Word ... and yet you cant use neither of those in same turn as any other spell that isnt Cantrip. O_o

So if this rule would be aplied ...
I dare to say that you would need to separate it into two turns ... like this:
1st round: Hex + Eldrich Blast (since that is cantrip, and therefore okey)
2nd round: Scorching Ray

I cant agree with this statement ... you have to remember the rule, so you can plan what to do.
Otherwise you can easily and often get to frustratin "oh shit why cant i do that" situations.

Im not sure what are you talking about here ...
As far as i know, Eldrich Blast dont become stronger as other cantrips, instead it gets another beam ...

And im not quire sure what do you mean by "dip" ... but if you are talking about multiclassing, i also believe that you would need to reach level 5 as Warlock to get that second beam.

Not sure how it works with feat Magic Initiate: Warlock tho ... i presume then you would get both Hex and second beam, but lost Eldrich Invocations ...
But on the other hand, Draconic Bloodline Sorcerer adds charisma modifier to related element since level 6 ... there is no Force, nor Necrotic Dragon tho.