Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General New players and the problem with Shar

I think the big issue is that Shar caused the spellplague by getting cyric to murder Mystra about 100 years before the game is set. The spellplague was a cataclysmic event that killed millions of people, destroyed cities, etc. Baldur's Gate wasn't effected much, but most of the rest of the world was.

Maybe there should be a text during the loading screen about this. Maybe your character can make a Religion check after she mentions Shar, and it fills your character in a bit.

She did what? Oh I guess that explains the Mystra thing.
Yeah they should really explain all this... especially since Shar seems to be a constant presence in the game.

Shar: the gestalt of abject spitefulness and nihilism.

Yup. This was Shar's machinations too, her attempt to destroy the Weave and replace it with her "Dark Weave."

Agree, there should be more lore exposition to inform dialogue choices. Better to "show, don't tell" with story cut scenes rather than direct explanations.

Or, dialogue choices should assume the player knows little about the lore. Choices could be effectively "who's Shar" or "why does this matter," except disguised as a question that makes more sense in-universe.

Dude! Dark Justiciar armor in Grymforge confirms. Shadowheart armor is 100% Sharran. Symbol on chest and all. Her starter armor is almost identical to armor you can find on a dead Dark Justiciar, and it labeled as such.

Yeah. They need to start her with different armor and have her pick up the Dark Justiciar armor in Grymforge or something.

Something like force her zo use Discuise Self spell she have allways prepared?

Yeah it is a bit like someone walking into a room with a MAGA hat and "lets go Brandon" t-shirt and someone someone asking "What god are you a cleric of exactly?".

Aside from the fact Shadowheart is a total douchbag everytime you ask a simple question and the "I AM A SHAR WORSHIPPER!" armor she is wearing. The big secret being .....drum roll.....she is a shar worshipper. Phew! glad you cleared that up, I had my suspicions because of the blue hair and social studies degree sticking out of your pocket and nothing to do with the 0.5 meter squared sign on your chest plate.

Subtle, the goddess of secrets indeed. On a side note shadowheart would have used her disguise spell automatically as a shar worshipper. shadowheart as a follower of Shar would tell people a pack of lies rather than attract attention with agressive denial imo.

...wha?

It seemed clear to me but i'll try to simplify it.


That's not a secret, it's obvious.

Nah. It's more like someone wearing red. Then you find out they voted Republican. Then you proclaim how obvious it was all along. Because red states is how they show Republican states on tv.

1. She has black decorative jewels on the shoulders of her armor.
2. She wears a circlet with a black jewel.
3. I don't doubt this decoration is in honor of Shar.
4. Other people wear similar things that aren't in honor of Shar.
5. This is, at the very least, plausible deniability.
6. If you didn't know she worshipped Shar, you wouldn't have guessed.
7. Everyone is Sherlock Holmes in hindsight.

And yes, it's reasonable to expect that someone skilled in actual subterfuge--a real spy for example--would weave a more convincing set of lies. This isn't what we get with Shadowheart. She makes emotional appeals, gives emotional denials, and finally offers an emotional confession. When talking about Raphael, she brags about her knowledge of dark, underhanded psychological tactics, even admitting to a certain admiration. Later, she's on edge when Lae'zel makes a tiefling bow.

The thing is, I don't think we're supposed to see Shadowheart as an effective and devious spy. We're supposed to see her as a character we build sympathy with, as a character we grow to care about, which includes the showing of vulnerability and some amount of "goodness" underneath the mask.

She likes it when we're nice to animals. She's surprised that she grew to care about the tieflings. She's had her memories taken, but she knows she likes night orchids.

When she talks about Shar, she doesn't talk about evil and ransacking villages. She talks about pain, about a pain so great that one can no longer endure, but must rather turn to the darkness, to find peace within.

This is not an evil cleric seeking power from foul gods. This is not even a sophisticated and emotionally mature person. This is a tragedy of a being who we can hope might someday be well again.

Please leave your personal politics out of these discussions.

sorry, i meant to clarify the other post, didn't mean to make it political

JandK.

The symbol on the Dark Justiciar armor is identical to Shadowheart's armor symbol. Identical!

It's not just color. It's the entire design. Our point is that her armor screams Shar in every way. Play out Grymforge. The whole place is full of symbols of Shar, and SH has those same symbols ALL over her. She has one on her chest as big as life, and it is EXACTLY the same as the Dark Justiciar armor I found last night in Grymforge. All the armor for Sharran soldiers has the same black onyx stones on the shoulders and on foreheads and so forth.

It is ridiculous for a cleric of a Goddess of Secrets to wear such blatant in your face armor. To use a different analogy, it's like a Star Wars fan at a Star Trek convention wearing a I ❤️ Star Wars T-shirt, and hat with the pic of Vader on it, and then having them say, "I'm actually a Star Wars fan."

Shock of shocks! You're a Star Wars fan? Mind blown.

By the way, I used to think Star Wars was way better than Star Trek. Now... sigh... after the prequels and then the sequels...

Sigh... Disney ruined it for me especially with Episodes 8 and 9.

So now I can't even fight with Trekkies anymore and say Star Wars is way more awesome than Star Trek and then have a Wars/Trek debate and war anymore. It truly saddens me. Ah, the good old days when we'd battle with one another about who would win, the Enterprise or Vader's Executor Class Star Destroyer.

Oh wait! Someone said we shouldn't talk politics. The debate about which is better, Star Wars or Star Trek, is just as bad. Sorry.

GM4Him:

I've played through Grymforge. I saw the armor you're referencing a while back. It's similar, sure. Noticeably, it doesn't have any black gems, though you could argue it has spots for them.

That said. It's doesn't have black gemstones.

Which means the comparison comes down to the design of the armor otherwise, the shoulders, the chest. And because of this similarity (not because of the aforementioned onyx, no, but because of this similarity) that people should notice and immediately recognize the trappings of Shar.

Why?

How common was this suit of armor? Did hundreds or thousands of Shar worshippers wear this exact armor, like a uniform? If so, why do we only find one set? Notice how the Shar helmet looks entirely different from the other Shar helmet.

How long ago was the trouble with Shar in the area? How many people remember the various sets of armor worn by them? How many of those sets of armor fell in battle and got reconditioned for later use by someone else who didn't worship Shar?

The point I'm making is simple:

1. I accept that it's in homage of Shar. I've always agreed to that. Heck, read the descriptions of her starting gear. Clearly, in honor of Shar.
2. But it's not obvious to everyone. It's just not, and it's only provincial presumption that would insist otherwise.
3. And finally, we can't point to a single person who saw Shadowheart in game before knowing she was a worshipper of Shar who said, "She's obviously a worshipper of Shar." Because everyone is so much more infuriatingly deductive *after* the fact.

Yet here poor gamer for all my Forgotten Realms lore, I stand no more Sherlock than before.

ETA: I thought Picard was a better admiral than Tarkin.

You might be surprised how little the average person knows about Star Wars or Star Trek. Her armor could be something like wearing the STAR WARS logo or it could be like like wearing the, never shown in the movies, Jedi logo, or even more cryptic, like a shirt that just says "McClunky" people who know, know, but more people don't.

Or for the Trekkers, a shirt with the IDIC symbol.

Yes, there certainly is some similarity ...
But you seem to forget that those armors we have found in Grymforge are at least 100y old.

Maybe noone realy remembers that Sharites used to wear this kind of armor as a uniform? O_o

I mean if we get to Baldur's Gate and before Shar Temple will stand guards with exactly same armor then yes ... that is totally fail.
But as far as i know, nobody (except Duergars that have occupied it) even really knows not just where, but even if any Grymforge exists.

The point was that in a Star Trek convention, everyone would immediately spot and recognize a Star Wars shirt and hat. Oh yeah! Some would even consider it blasphemous.

The FR is not an FR convention, it's people have lives that don't involve being immersed in this lore. I feel a lot of this is coming from a perspective drenched in media, this is something fairly recent in human history, there was a time most people couldn't read, and weren't bombarded by iconography.

Library's used to refer to things kept under lock and key in manors, and museums were open by appointment, the dissemination of information in a pre-industrial society is a completely different animal.

What? I'm sorry. I think I'm missing the point you're trying to make here.