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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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That's fun, very Choose Your Own Adventure, I'm a fan, but I can't help but wonder what would happen if you choose the [Githyanki] response but then veered into the generic ones. If you're a Drow who views home as an sun-drenched island, but then talk about your deep-connection to Lolth what happens? It would be better if each response lead to the next one otherwise you get a kind of dissonance about your story. For your consideration to ridicule: Githyanki Artisan Rogue Who do you dream of? [make daisy] Daisy: “Darling, do you remember when we first met? It was...†1. 1a) [Outlander]I was travelling home from the wood when I saw you bathing, down down down by the river...1b) [Artisan] Of course. You came into my workshop, you browsed for an hour before I realized you just wanted to talk to me... set Tag [Artisan] 1c) [Acolyte]You came to me looking for meaning, but I found it in you...
1d) [Charlatan]You seemed like an easy mark, but soon everything was revealed to you...
1e) [Criminal] The job went side-ways, I looked to a stranger to cover for me, and gain so much more...
1f) [Entertainer] At first I thought you were just another fan, but you became my muse...
1g) [Folk Hero] It's funny, I don't remember what I saved you from, only you...
1h) [Noble] Was the host really such a bore or was it just how grey everything around you became...
1i) [Hermit] It seems odd, I went years never wanting to see another soul, but now I'll always have you...
1j) [Sage] We kept fighting over the same books, I was livid until I finally met you...
1k) [Sailor] Months away, the endless doldrums of the sea, all until I'd return to your port...
1l) [Soldier] At first I viewed you as just a good training partner, but soon our sparring took a different tenor...
1m) [Urchin] We'd lived in the same gutter for so many years, we were animals, but together we could be more...1b-[Artisan] Daisy: "That's right, it's been so long, I've forgotten what even your trade was..." 2a) [Githyanki]I made arms for my Creche, I was skilled, but eventually I was needed elsewhere... Tag [Creche-born]2b)[Githyanki]I made simple tools in village that didn't mind the way I looked...[Village] 2c)[Githyanki]I sold trinkets wherever I went, never daring to stay in one place for too long, but eventually I found a family...[Well-Travelled] 2d)[Githyanki]I live in the 'Gate, my face made me and my work exotic, some might say too exotic...[Baldurian] 2e)[Githyanki]I lived in isolation, though many sought my skills, I avoided trouble but it didn't last...[Remote] 2a- Daisy: "A Creche workshop? Of course, how could I have forgotten... Daisy: "Tell me about your Home and the Stars, it seems like so long since we've been there" 3a) Home? Of course, I...We lived on Tu'narath, built into a dead god, it visibly seethes waiting to do our queen Vlaakith's will... [Tu'narathi] [City]3b) Home? I-We are from Githmir, swollen with the spoils of war, and teeming with opportunists the Planes over, a rare open door our queen Vlaakith leaves our people... [Githmir] Tag [City] 3c) Home? You must remember Creche K'liir, it follows the Tears of Selûne, K'liir is small, but produces many proud and eager servants of our queen Vlaakith... [K'liir] [Remote] 3d) Home? I was reared in one of the many Creches among the stars, there I learned discipline, the value of obedience and above all how to serve our queen Vlaakith... [Remote] 3a- Daisy: "Vlaakith, she seems to be important to you, is she more important to you than me?"  4a) Were anyone else to ask me such a question I would strike them down without a second thought!...it is by her grace we are free of the ghaik...I- [Loyal to Vlaakith] 4b) Never ask me such a question again. Without Vlaakith m-our people would be lost, it is only in her service that we survived the ghaik... [Lawful to Vlaakith]4c) Vlaakith is a strong ruler to the Gith and delivered us from the Illithid, but I am my own being, as she would want me to be. You are important to me... [White Rose to Vlaakith] 4d) Vlaakith may have freed us from the hated Mind-Flayers, but her rule is killing the Gith, I would be rid of her if I could...Have I ever said such a thing before?...[Red Rose to Vlaakith] 4b- Daisy: "You really hate the Illithids so? Such hatred makes me feel sad, do you feel so strongly about all alien races?" 5a) Fie, the people of that world are all decadent and wasteful, fit only for plunder and servitude, there's a reason we keep them apart from us...[Xenophobe] 5b) The societies of that world have never known hardship, it has bred a contagious ill-discipline best kept away from our people...[Isolationist] 5c) Such silly things, the way they live with such waste, the chaos they invite into their cities, I am curious to know how they survive, sometimes I even dream of them...[Open-Minded]5d) Not at all, some I find to be...fetching...their large eyes, their fleshy noses, everything about them fascinates me...sometimes I even dream of them...[Xenophilic] Let's make this one more heavily reliant on the choices before hand, summing up this characters is: [Githyanki][Artisan][Rogue][Creche-born][Tu'narathi][City][Lawful to Vlaakith][Open-Minded] 5c-[Rogue] Daisy: "Almost done my love. recently you found yourself near Baldur's Gate...what where you doing there? 6a) [Creche-born]NOT[Baldurian] I have been assigned to a squadron tracking down a stolen weapon...my deft hands, and careful step will help against our eternal enemy...but didn't...?6b) [Creche-born][Baldurian] I escaped my people thinking I would be free of our race's enmities, but even my skills at subterfuge could not hide me from being taken...wha-?
6c) [Baldurian]NOT[Creche-born] I never learned about my people's ancestral enemy, but while travelling I was taken all the same...I was taken?
6d) [Village]NOT[Baldurian] I'd made a life for myself, found a people who didn't judge me for my alien appearance, only to have it taken away from me by forces beyond my ken...
6e) [Village][Baldurian] I had started a new life, lost in a city that wouldn't know me for my former life, only to have it all stripped away from me again and from a source I didn't even know to fear...
6f) [Village][Baldurian][Zhentarim] I'd found a way to live, and live well, whatever my past might have been I had a future...a future taken away from my by something even more alien than I was...
6g) [Village]or[Baldurian][Flaming Fist] Duty called, it feels natural to heed it, there is trouble on the road to Elturel, I've been assigned to a scouting party but...we could never have been prepared for what we found...what did I find?
6i) [Remote]or[Well-Travelled][Zhentarim]Another job for the Zhents using my expertise, and experience along the Chionthar, for a Zhent the panic to the East only means opportunity...little did we know...
6h) [Well-Travelled]And[Village]OR[Baldurian]I had just decided to put down roots in the first place that didn't treat me like some kind of freak, only to have it taken away...
6j) [Well-Travelled] All my time practicing my skills, trying to stay a step ahead everyone who look on me with disgust and contempt, before it could turn to hatred, all for naught..."What happened to me. My Love, where are we? I had thought we were back at home, but-" Daisy: "Hush beloved, there is but one more thing for you to hear, the sweetest sound you could possibly imagine, her voice will make everything clear-" Then we can slip into the game regular as our brainwashing is interrupted. Doing this reminded me a lot of the Tapestry system from, yes, Dragon Age, where you reconstructed your past by going through every choice you would have made in the prior games. And of course all those Choose Your Own Adventure games I play too many of. I think right now the Tag system in BG:3 is sorely under utilized and could really be expanded upon to allow us to create some pretty unique people. I left out serious personality building because it can be both subjective without proper context and also because I don't like it when personality traits are assigned as though people aren't all things at all times depending on the situation. But of course if I've gained anything from this exercise, it's the will to sleep. zzZZzz
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: May 2021
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Nice intro concept Niara! Reminds me a teensy bit of Disco Elysium (without the existential dread! Lol).
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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DAO was my favorite game in defining my character. You chose from a set number of origins and backgrounds, and your experience was pretty drastically altered depending on which background you chose AND your in-game choices. No game has touched DAO in that regard (imho). Skyrim was a bit too open ended from my perspective. Your background is really meaningless in that game, whereas DAO struck a great balance between origin and choice. I have been waiting a decade for a next gen game to go back to this idea. No joy unfortunately. I thought CP77 might get there with the three origins, but alas…they screwed the pooch on the whole game.
Origin characters are a heavy handed version of the DAO system. You get different backgrounds, but your character is overly pre defined. Freedom is so limited. It will never be as fluid as DAO or as focused as, say, TW3. It just falls flat somewhere in the middle.
But…it is what it is. They will not change it at this point. It is the DOS2 thang they are married to. The bitter draught of inevitability. I agree. That's actually a pretty interesting angle. I'm gonna need to chew on that and process in the back of my head for a while on my way into Neverland. (Sleep) Here's a throw-together of the sort of concept I'm meaning:
((The screen is black))
Narrator: The stinging fades, and the memory of it passes swiftly from your mind. You feel disoriented; your senses are dull and you can't tell where you are.
Voice: “You are home; you are safe. You grew up here. Look around you; tell me what you see.â€
1) Just a single, isolated homestead, in the middle of nowhere... but it was home.
2) This is the little village where I was born...
3) This is the city I grew up in...
4) This is my island; the roll of waves is home for me.
5) The mountains where I trained... the order.
6) We moved around a lot, but wherever it went, the caravan was home for me, really...
7) [Githyanki] My creche, where I first drew the blood of my clutch mates to survive...
((Player picks 4. The screen fades in to a nondescript island setting, with white sand beaches, a small township and the dazzling blue of the sea of swords. The scene shows people moving about the little township, while the character stands on the beach, looking out to sea.))
Narrator: As your vision clears, you realise where you are.
Voice: “Yes, home. You're safe here; you can relax. Remember what it was like, growing up?â€
1) Heh... I was always a bit of a trouble-maker. If there was mischief, I was probably at the centre of it.
2) I liked to keep to myself, and enjoy the quiet moments. People said I was always daydreaming.
3) I always like to try to help out where I could, even when I was little.
4) I had so many friends!
5) I was such a terrible flirt, even back then. It got me into trouble sometimes.
6) I remember the grazes and the bruises. I was always scrapping, or picking fights.
7) [Githyanki] T'ch, relaxing was for the feeble. I learned to praise Valkith, follow orders, and slit the throat of any who got in my way. I made my first kill when I was a yearling. I remember it. Vividly.
((Player picks 1. The people in the scene grow more defined. The player is then free to walk around and talk to people. The other NPCs greet the character by name, and respond to them in styles based on the previous answer, but generally all friendly and positive – treating the PC as though they are still a youth. The PC is able to engage in a few various conversations that let them respond in a small handful of ways that help define their character a little more; the game can remember these - these do not create restrictions, but rather can open up extra options later on. Movement tutorials, social interaction tutorials, skill check tutorials and inventory management tutorials are presented here (the exact skills presented might be from a pool of a few options based on the PC's answers – if they are a daydreamer who goes exploring, they might make athletics and perception checks, for example, but all choices will cover stealth, slight of hand and persuasion in some form, at minimum), while the player explores the town and is guided to talk to a few specific npcs. After this is done, a new NPC runs up to the player, indistinct; game movement slows before they reach the PC.))
Voice: “There was someone very important to you there, wasn't there? Tell me about them...â€
1) My sister was always looking out for me...
2) My brother and I were always close...
3) My best friend
4) There was this one girl...
5) There was this one boy...
6) I don't really really think of anyone from back then any more.
7) [Githyanki] My Kith'rak trained me hard. I tried to kill them and assume their position many times. At each failure, they taught me to try harder.
((Player picks 1, and the game fades into the character creator to let them design the figure, who then comes into clarity when they confirm it and finishes running up to them. The figure's dialogue is a culmination of several of the options picked so far, as well as providing a (possibly fictional – this is a tadpole dream) vector away form 'safety' and to Baldur's gate, or to a location within it if the character is a Baldurian))
“[PlayerName], There you are! I swear, Targon is going to give you a hiding if he finds out it was you who let his chickens out and spooked them.†She sighs. “Or, I guess, if he can prove it, since he thinks it was you already. It was you, wasn't it? You're... Oh, never mind, come on, there's no time! The ship to Baldur's Gate is leaving in ten minutes, and if we don't go now... you're not going to make me wait another three months to go birthday shopping, are you? Come on!â€
((As the player follows after the figure, the dream begins to break apart; storms and violent weather set in and aspects begin to tear and shatter. Glimpses of Nautiloid themed matter begin to glimpse through, and as the dream loses cohesion, we crash out into what is now the current intro. It could give the subtle, hinted at impression that if this process had completed smoothly, we might have eventually woken up in BG with no real knowledge of our infection, possibly.))
Just a quick rough up of the concept - the idea is that these details would draw from a restricted set of possibilities that are meant to represent "As close as the tadpole can do in a short amount of time", so it's in-universe going to be not quite right, to cover the game's inability to perfectly map things for every individual player, but it still lets them define some things about their character that can potentially come up later. It also lets the game potentially set up some specific character protagonist hooks. This would be awesome! And that stuff really gave me some Fable vibes. O.o
Hoot hoot, stranger! Fairly new to CRPGs, but I tried my best to provide some feedback regardless! <3 Read it here: My Open Letter to Larian
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2019
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One of my major issues with playing an Origins character is that their personalities are already quite defined to us; the notion of playing as Lae'Zel or Astarion and then choosing actions which are contrary to their personalities seems a bit contrived to me, assuming that Origins characters won't be railroaded into decisions which reflect their demeanours. In essence, you could roleplay a selfish or 'evil' Origins character as a 'good' character and that just feels strange, mostly in terms of having a grounded and believable game. Yes this is exactly it for why it makes no sense for me to play any of the origin characters, because I would have to play them as *them* and not as *me*. As someone who wants to play exclusively *good*, how do I play most of these characters? I too love the alternative ideas proposed by @Topgoon and especially @Niara. 
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
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but I can't help but wonder what would happen if you choose the [Githyanki] response but then veered into the generic ones. If you're a Drow who views home as an sun-drenched island, but then talk about your deep-connection to Lolth what happens? Well, that's how you know it's still a Larian game, no? /cynical
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Jun 2020
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Wyll looks fun with the interaction with Mizora and the involvement of the Hells via Raphael.
Evil always finds a way.
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member
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member
Joined: Oct 2020
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Just chiming in: Like some others, I very much dislike the Origin Character system and would rather see Larian remove it (or rather not implement it, not sure how far they are in that regard) completely - and focus all development/effort to a gameplay with a custom character + companions.
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Van'tal
Unregistered
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Van'tal
Unregistered
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The ones they haven't made yet.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2019
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The ones they haven't made yet. Nice!
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Oct 2020
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I would go with ShadowHeart or Laezel I dont even bother picking up Gale or Wyll anymore and possibly Astarion
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stranger
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stranger
Joined: Oct 2020
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Which Origin character are you looking forward to playing? I'll only play my custom character (and ideally a Fully Custom Character, not a Semi-Custom Character like Gorion's Ward, if that is at all possible). The option of playing an Origin Character is an idea completely antithetic to the feeling of a DnD campaign that Larian purports to want to convey. It's also a huge resource investment. I can somewhat understand that Larian may want to cater to as many audiences as possible at once (which is not without risk), and some players may prefer a pre-made character. But I think 2-4 Origin Characters would have been enough. Offering 5, or 8 or 12 Origin Characters is a Very Bad Idea, in my view. See, I think it depends on your perspective. There's two steps to the way that a character is a part of a DnD campaign. #1 is character creation. You generate your character with a specific background and archetype that suits you, as a player. #2 is character integration. Your character is integrated into the setting and the running plot, through various hooks to your character's backstory and choices. In a real DnD campaign, a good DM gives you both. You create the ideal character that you want, and the DM collaborates with you to hook that character into their setting and plot. In a video game, with no DM to collaborate with, you kind of have to choose to focus on one or the other. If #1 is the core to your DnD experience, then yeah, origin stories are antithetical to the feeling of a DnD campaign. You need a blank slate character so you can project your specific and personal ideals onto it, and actually integrating that character into the setting is unnecessary and even counterproductive, since that integration will never match what you could imagine yourself. But if it's #2 that really makes you feel like a campaign setting and plot are immersive, then origin stories give the game a lot of tools to create that feeling of integration, at the expense of your character having some pre-generated archetypical features. I recognize that you are someone who gets their sense of joy out of #1 and doesn't care much about #2, and that's cool. But saying that #1 is what defines DnD, to the point of excluding character/setting integration, I don't think that's true for everyone who plays DnD.
Last edited by Booface; 19/11/21 09:35 PM.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2021
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Playing D&D with someone else's character is not playing D&D. There has to be player agency in the character creation for an RPG to qualify as a D&D experience, and the character has to be integrated in the plot and the setting for said game to qualify as a remotely decent RPG. And if a developer cannot manage this then said developer probably should not be trying to make D&D RPGs.
It's not easy to make it all work but that's why a few games stand out and most are forgotten. Larian made the choice to have a go at Baldur's Gate and to me it is entirely unreasonable to cut them any slack just because they decided to do a difficult project. If they realise that they can't do it properly and need to reign in the difficulties then that's fine too, of course, but then the title just doesn't fit anymore.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2019
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Which Origin character are you looking forward to playing? I'll only play my custom character (and ideally a Fully Custom Character, not a Semi-Custom Character like Gorion's Ward, if that is at all possible). The option of playing an Origin Character is an idea completely antithetic to the feeling of a DnD campaign that Larian purports to want to convey. It's also a huge resource investment. I can somewhat understand that Larian may want to cater to as many audiences as possible at once (which is not without risk), and some players may prefer a pre-made character. But I think 2-4 Origin Characters would have been enough. Offering 5, or 8 or 12 Origin Characters is a Very Bad Idea, in my view. See, I think it depends on your perspective. There's two steps to the way that a character is a part of a DnD campaign. #1 is character creation. You generate your character with a specific background and archetype that suits you, as a player. #2 is character integration. Your character is integrated into the setting and the running plot, through various hooks to your character's backstory and choices. In a real DnD campaign, a good DM gives you both. You create the ideal character that you want, and the DM collaborates with you to hook that character into their setting and plot. In a video game, with no DM to collaborate with, you kind of have to choose to focus on one or the other. If #1 is the core to your DnD experience, then yeah, origin stories are antithetical to the feeling of a DnD campaign. You need a blank slate character so you can project your specific and personal ideals onto it, and actually integrating that character into the setting is unnecessary and even counterproductive, since that integration will never match what you could imagine yourself. But if it's #2 that really makes you feel like a campaign setting and plot are immersive, then origin stories give the game a lot of tools to create that feeling of integration, at the expense of your character having some pre-generated archetypical features. I recognize that you are someone who gets their sense of joy out of #1 and doesn't care much about #2, and that's cool. But saying that #1 is what defines DnD, to the point of excluding character/setting integration, I don't think that's true for everyone who plays DnD. What you describe as #2 here is not what Larian is doing with their origin characters. With the origin characters, we don't have any power to make the character "our character." We are entirely 100% playing Larian's character. So your description of #2 is fundamentally flawed. D&D is indeed about roleplaying one's own created character. That was and has always been what D&D is ALL about, the very purpose for creating the D&D system. Origin characters are fundamentally non-D&D. Doesn't mean an RPG cannot have such PCs and be a good RPG. The Witcher games do it extremely well. But one cannot claim origin characters fit into D&D.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2021
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D&D is indeed about roleplaying one's own created character. Yeah, this just isn't true. At best, it's someone's personal sense of what DnD means to them. In reality, there have always been pre-generated characters in DnD modules available for player use. And yes, those pre-generated characters have often come with background and personalities. It's just a fact, not even worth debating. If someone doesn't like playing a pre-generated character, fine, whatever, to each their own. There's nothing wrong with that. But that personal opinion has zero to do with what DnD has--indeed--always been about.
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veteran
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Joined: Oct 2020
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How warranted a pre-gen character is, is commensurate with how much of a sandbox the game is going to be. If you're playing an RPG with a setting that exists before you make a character then I imagine you would take that into account when making your character.
Games like D&D can be near total sandboxes, but premade adventures often have characters with hooks for that adventure, and systems like Call of Cthulhu which is very narrative, sometimes expect it.
No computer RPG will ever be the kind of sandbox having a living DM will allow, and I don't think most people would be interested in a computer game that tries anyway. It's why I'm not bothered by having origin characters, but I am worried that a custom character might be left behind.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
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So, just as some supporting information for folks: the starter set for 5e came with a small collection of pre-generated characters, specifically for new players, designed to help them explore what having a character and playing as them is like in this system, and to familiarise them with the processes involved, before they're completely ready to jump into character generations on their own. After that, no full module or game book for 5th has come with any pre-generated characters (other than the second starter set that was released which has a set of them for the same reason, and one or two particularly special small adventures that require very specific characters to run - you're not going to play Locathah rising without playing as a locathah, most likely), by design.
Playing someone else's character rather than your own is largely antithetical to modern D&D. It has evolved this way over time and over various editions - go back far enough and most of the original mass of various game systems that original D&D grew out of had neither characters nor magic items, nor any number of other things that are strong hallmarks of today's game.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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And how about for premade stories? Especially cRPGs? How prevalent is it there? Do you consider it antithetical to play characters who have history in their setting in a computer game?
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2020
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Like we have tons of choices...lol. 6 characters for a party of 4...
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veteran
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Joined: Jun 2020
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And how about for premade stories? Especially cRPGs? How prevalent is it there? Do you consider it antithetical to play characters who have history in their setting in a computer game? No, not at all ^.^ It's rather the staple driving factor of a great many very good video games. It's not even truly an absolute deal-breaker for something to really capture the feeling of being a D&d game either - but it is a strong strike against it that the game needs to make up for in other ways. A game needs to work exceptionally hard to capture the feel of playing D&D well, if it is going down the path of pre-existing characters that the player picks from rather than making their own, but it can be done well. (Edit to continue) I've looked at other up and coming d&d games, but even though some of them looked very promising visually (There's a new dark alliance, I think?), the discovery that we would just be playing existing characters - no matter how famous or special - completely removed my desire to play them at all. I just lost all real interest, because for me it wouldn't feel like playing D&D, or be able to answer the whole point of WHY I go to a D&D game. It might be a great game and very enjoyable (and I'm sure I would!), but if my itch is for a D&D game, it won't be able too scratch it. The thing is, when I'm in the mood for the sort of game that it is, I'll probably go and look at it, and when I do, I'll enjoy it - but I won't think of it as a D&D game, not really - just a very good video game set in the forgotten realms. Here's the really interesting part: Is there was NO custom character available AT ALL in BG3... if it was JUST "Pick Your Character" and then a selection from between each of the origin characters, and a blurb provided for each one... I would be far, far less critical of it, because it wouldn't be trying to make itself out to bee something it's not. It wouldn't really feel like playing a D&D game - but I might enjoy it if the story was good and the gameplay was solid. However, because there is the ability to make your own character, it is making a claim to a type of game that it ultimately fails to be, when that character is a blank empty nothing with no attachment to the story, and which only serves to highlight how the origin characters - who are still there and in your face regardless - are much more awesome than her... it fails, and fails hard, as well as creating story-telling dissonance. It need sot either be the player character, and available companions - who are only companions, and not the player character... Or it needs to be a selection of fixed main characters, of whom we only choose one, and that has major impact on the game as a whole and the experience of playing through Their story, as opposed to someone else's. I'm not saying it's impossible to do both, but the crux of the problem is this: I need to feel like my character is tied to the story in their own unique way; I lead the party and I make our decisions, and there's got to be a reason why I am doing that, in amongst all the other strong personalities, even if I, by character, am unassuming and unassertive; the reason must be potent and present enough to cover this. If there is no unique factor that ties my character to the story in a way that the others are not so-tied, then my character's reason for existing at all falls apart, in the scope of the game. If any origin character can hop into the lead role without anything changing, then it seems like there's nothing to support the existence of my character and their participation in the plot - especially when all those special characters are still there and still have all of their own special plot connections going on. If, on the other hand, something does change, and does set me apart as being tied to the plot in a unique way that the others are not... then we have the problem that the player character becomes a non-entity in a different way - that is, if any origin can hop into their shoes, assume the role of leader, and inherit the special unique plot-tie that makes them so, and still has their own stuff going on As Well, then the player character is an automatically inferior and less interesting choice, because they just have a blank empty nothingness where the origins have their personal stories. This is the problem that BG3 has right now. By trying to do both sets of things at the same time, they shoot themselves in the foot and cut their own legs out from under themselves.
Last edited by Niara; 21/11/21 05:34 AM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2019
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D&D is indeed about roleplaying one's own created character. Yeah, this just isn't true. At best, it's someone's personal sense of what DnD means to them. In reality, there have always been pre-generated characters in DnD modules available for player use. And yes, those pre-generated characters have often come with background and personalities. It's just a fact, not even worth debating. If someone doesn't like playing a pre-generated character, fine, whatever, to each their own. There's nothing wrong with that. But that personal opinion has zero to do with what DnD has--indeed--always been about. No, what you are saying here is what is complete b.s. Pre-gen characters have always been shortcuts for new players in D&D. The very idea of D&D has always been about creating and playing your own character. But I do agree: nothing's worth discussing or debating with you.
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