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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Peranor
There is a better way to control your party. It's a tried and true method that has been in some of the best crpg's for decades.
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Originally Posted by JandK
Something is WAY different with your game than mine. I'm not having any of these problems.
Well, I've had similar issues in my game. The pathing ai is fond of doing crazy stuff, and as of patch 6 it got worse.

Just because you don't experience a particular bug doesn't mean it's not there. I've reported some bugs I haven't seen mentioned often or at all here.

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Click-and-drag selection of party member(s) not being in Larian's games is absolutely baffling. It's a much simpler/more intuitive mechanic, and has the added benefit of being used in BG (among many other similar games since). I've always hated the "toilet chain" mess, lol. Clunky UI in general was for me by far the biggest issue with DOS 1/2, and now I see its unfortunate legacy with this and many other issues in BG3.

Last edited by Mikus; 18/11/21 02:49 AM.
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Originally Posted by ash elemental
Just because you don't experience a particular bug doesn't mean it's not there. I've reported some bugs I haven't seen mentioned often or at all here.

That's what I said. I mentioned that I wasn't experiencing the problem, and then I wondered if it might be a Patch issue between different platforms.

But I was told no, that it had always happened and that it was an *issue with the system*.

To which I replied, in essence, if it's an issue with the system, why is it working alright for so many other people?

In other words, I never suggested it wasn't a bug particular to certain people.

Now. That said. Do I think it's possible that people are exaggerating their difficulties because they prefer different interface mechanics? Sure, it's possible. But I came into this discussion with an open mind, curious if it was an issue between platform updates.

Last edited by JandK; 18/11/21 04:16 AM.
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Does this behaviour still happen to people?
I still notice is from time to time, even though the characters doesn't seems to spaz out quite as much as in the video anymore. But to be honest I don't play the game as much these days either. Trying not to burn my self out before the game goes live.


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I didnt seen this for quite some while now. O_o
And not just bcs i no longer use guidance this way since patch 5 laugh


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Originally Posted by JandK
if it's an issue with the system, why is it working alright for so many other people?

I'm not sure it's "all right" for many people.
Reading the answers here and "statistics" we have tends to say that people more or less deal with it. Not that they particularly like it or that they find it "good".


Originally Posted by Maximuuus
THREAD STATISTICS

201 different players answered this thread from P1 to P29 (included)
I think I didn't forget anyone and I think no one is listed twice.
I also include people that just discussed in the thread without giving a strong +1 or -1. Usually those also have issues with the system.


RESULTS

- 147 (73%) of them gave a feedback that you can't missunderstood : they don't like this system
- 6 (less than 3%) said that they're pretty ok to deal with the system but they have issues with it
- 1 (less than 1%) seems to like it.
- 47 (23%) discussed issues related to this system or give related feedbacks, suggestions, specific issues etc... but didn't clearly wrote "I like it" or "I don't like it".

CONCLUSIONS

After re-reading ALL messages, looks like nearly 100% of players think that the system is far from being good.
Improvement are needed even if they won't solve every issues.

I guess that 100% of players would be fine with a classic control scheme but if Larian wants to keep this unpopular chain system, they should improve it.
A few suggestions from this thread :

- Add formations
- Add a group all / ungroup all button
- Fix the auto jump / auto follow
- Add a hide all button
- Add a "don't move" button
- Fix the pathfinding
- Fix the latency / missclick / missdrag while chaining / unchaining / clicking on portrait

This won't solve all issues - the biggest one is probably that you CAN'T select more than 1 character at the same time - but it would be good QoL improvement.
This system would still be bad both in solo and multiplayer, both on console and on pc - your characters would still move like chickens everywhere - select more than 1 / less than 4 companions would still gonna be tedious - you'll still have more click to do in comparison with a classic systems - but it would be "less bad".

Edit : the list has been updated in the previous message.
Edit 2 : I didn't saw any PROS for the chain from players who tried both systems in SP/MP or on Console/PC. That's why I assume in the conclusion that the chain is not better whatever the situation.

Other statistics we have about this mechanic (+- 1000 people right at the beginning of the EA)

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1sip8wb8Yu1-N1FC7dDY72RJewnu3hqvz/view
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1IgN2IAZi8Hho6X_7XpiW-0N_cUYEJvX8/view

An average of 50% "satisfyed" and an average of 50% "not satisfyed" without any details or comments.

A few reddit threads about the chain :
this one show a video window if not inside an "url", very strange...
https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/jber1g/feedback_character_selection_remove_all_the/

Threads people disagree with on reddit were usually downed to hell. Threads criticizing the chain always had support (less than an astarion artwork, ofc)

This system is definitely not as easy and intuitive as another one and it can creates more or less often unexpected reactions and situations.
They would be mad not to change it at some point (in BG3 or in their next games). Especially now that other studios have proven that you can have a main "classic system" that can conviently work "like a chain" for players using a controller.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 18/11/21 08:27 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm not sure it's "all right" for many people.

By other people, I'm referring to myself and streamers I see playing the game, as I mentioned in my earlier post.

Are there occasional issues? Sure.

But I'm not seeing the level of difficulty I keep hearing about. Not in my own play, and not in the channels I watch. So it leaves me with a question. If these issues are system wide, as is being suggested, then why am I not experiencing them? And why do I not see them in abundance on the channels I watch?

I think that's a fair question.

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To summarize the broad sweep of this entire thread, several at the start voiced their desire for a movement mechanic/interface that looked and felt more like BG1/2 e.g. the RTS style command and control scheme, where the player controls all their characters at once, drag marquee to select either on screen or with portraits, ctrl A to "control all" etc. The standard conventions that have been in use in RTS games since the Mid 90s more or less.

Another point of view has that the BG3 movement interface is not enough like the FPS or driving command and control conventions of say a KOTOR (or similar games). Again conventions established in the Mid 90s, when the thumbsticks first began appearing on console controllers and 3d platformers and shooters were common. Also where the chain follower/AI henchmen dynamic first became really common in RPGs.

Most of the frustration I hear in this thread seems to stem from BG3 eschewing conventional controls in favor of something more esoteric and homegrown. Usually when this is done in a game to great effect, there is a clear design oriented or gameplay purpose which the developer is trying to achieve, stimulating some other area of our control minded brain I guess, as like an end goal in itself. I don't know that many people who have been griping in this thread feel that that's what's going on with BG3 though, or that if it is, that it's really worth it lol.

The question is fair, but the ready answer is I don't know and have no clue. I don't know how anyone finds this method of controlling the party ideal. If you're really digging it, I think you might be the first person here to say so. Somehow I doubt that people who find BG3s controls way frustrating would be out streaming about it or making constant commentary on their youtube channels or whatever at this point, but I don't know there either. I stopped watching most BG3 vids a while back.

Also, I was thinking just now, how perhaps Larian wants some kind of omnipresent danger or mishaps cooked in, so that like Lae'zel might burst into flames at the exact wrong moment, in much the same way that maybe a Kivan gets chunked in BG1, or Viconia paths off into a pitrap in BG2. Like 'oh damn, that was crazy! Maybe I'll reload or maybe not, because it was just like such a sight to see.' But I don't know, even if all the mishaps can be downed to user error in BG3, it's just not as endearing in that way. It feels like a strange hybrid of two different modes of control, each of which I enjoy on their own merits, just not in this particular marriage arrangement. I'd love a camera unlock. They probably are wary of fully unlocking the cam because of glitch out exploits or whatever, but I don't care. This is EA, just patch in the Z axis and separate the zoom and let people go wild with that for a few months. Least it would be something.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 19/11/21 12:25 AM.
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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I'm not sure it's "all right" for many people.

By other people, I'm referring to myself and streamers I see playing the game, as I mentioned in my earlier post.

Are there occasional issues? Sure.

But I'm not seeing the level of difficulty I keep hearing about. Not in my own play, and not in the channels I watch. So it leaves me with a question. If these issues are system wide, as is being suggested, then why am I not experiencing them? And why do I not see them in abundance on the channels I watch?

I think that's a fair question.

You and your streamer does not make more click with the chain system ?
You always have an easy and precise control over your characters ?
The chain always break or link when you try to ?
You never experienced unexpected (or ridiculous) moves or climb ladder up/down because you change the selected character 1 sec too early ?
A "follower" never stop to follow so you click on his portait to unlock him, but then everyone else is going back ?

It does not matter if it happen every 10 seconds on someone's playthrough and every 20 minutes on yours.
These are problems you NEVER have with a good designed system.

They only added unecessary (occasionnal if it pleases you) issues when they tried to reinvent the wheel on top of giving a less efficient control to any players.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 19/11/21 11:17 AM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
These are problems you NEVER have with a good designed system.

They only added unecessary (occasionnal if it pleases you) issues when they tried to reinvent the wheel on top of giving a less efficient control to any players.

Exactly this, for the reasons given. The other older/tried-and-true control schemes mentioned in this thread (with, to my mind, the BG1/2 drag-and-select method being by far the most obvious contender) never have any of these or in my experience any other substantial issues, while the bizarre DOS1/2-legacy chaining system does - whether it's often or occasional in any one user's experience is irrelevant. I've yet to hear any valid gameplay reason not to fix it, though I very much doubt Larian will destroy it with fire as it so richly deserves given their strange investment in the system in DOS 1/2/"3". I really wish they would, though - along with a host of other improvements appropriately suggested elsewhere on the forums, it would make a good game so much more enjoyable.

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
They only added unecessary (occasionnal if it pleases you) issues when they tried to reinvent the wheel on top of giving a less efficient control to any players.

+1

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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
does not make more click with the chain system ?

I don't know what "make more click" means, but I don't have any problems with the chain system. It works fine for me.

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Well, we do. So, let's say they create a new movement mechanics system because we don't like the current one, and it's better. Why argue with us over it?

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Well, we do. So, let's say they create a new movement mechanics system because we don't like the current one, and it's better. Why argue with us over it?

I'm not arguing with you. Your opinion on this matter isn't high on my radar. I'm just responding to someone who quoted me, and ultimately letting Larian know that I think the movement system works fine.

Works fine when I play it. Works fine when I see other people play it.

I don't think it's a problem, and in my opinion they shouldn't change it. Doing so would be a waste of resources and could potentially turn into something worse, not better.

Personally, I'm beginning to think that the current system isn't what a handful of vocal people are used to, so they're exaggerating problems in an effort to push for a system their muscle memory prefers. I might be wrong, I don't know, but it makes sense to my anecdotal observations.

Regardless, I'm just sharing feedback about what I prefer. So I could flip your whole statement around and say, "I like the current one because I think it's great. Why argue with me over it?"

But I don't say that. Because I don't think these forums revolve around me.

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I know it is unpopular, but I too find the chaining system and turn-based combat easier to manage than highlight party and RtWP-style games. It let’s me take my time and think a bit about each move and feels less chaotic to me.

I also think the UI is fine (tho I would like spell and potion sorting options in their own mini windows).

But I do agree with many posts here and in other places that the storytelling is somehow off. I find it more difficult to get immersed in the tale compared to other rpgs I have played. It feels…messy and confusing but not in a particularly fun way. But it is difficult for me to articulate why I feel that way (as I am not a writer myself except for terrible fan fics…lol).

I enjoy reading posts from those who have thought about it more than me and are attempting to reason out why and try to pinpoint the issues in a more thoughtful way. I think it is a fun exercise in disentangling the creative process and imagining what might work better.


Edited: *sorry all!! I thought I was in the “doesn’t feel like dnd” thread! Am half asleep! Ignore my ramblings!*

Last edited by timebean; 21/11/21 03:40 AM.
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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
does not make more click with the chain system ?

I don't know what "make more click" means, but I don't have any problems with the chain system. It works fine for me.

It means that you have more things to do to achieve the same goal compared to another system.

Originally Posted by JandK
I don't think these forums revolve around me.

This thread mostly revolve arround facts than personnal preferencies even if players are sharing their experiences.

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Originally Posted by JandK
Works fine when I play it. Works fine when I see other people play it.

I don't think it's a problem, and in my opinion they shouldn't change it. Doing so would be a waste of resources and could potentially turn into something worse, not better.

Personally, I'm beginning to think that the current system isn't what a handful of vocal people are used to, so they're exaggerating problems in an effort to push for a system their muscle memory prefers. I might be wrong, I don't know, but it makes sense to my anecdotal observations.

I'd go back to Y axis inversion as the clearest thing I can think of, for a reason not to write it off. For many players (people like me) a game with a camera or POV that cannot be inverted along the Y axis control input is instantly unplayable. It's not just that it's taxing on the muscle memory, it's actively disorienting and unplayable for me at this point in life. I could never change that about myself as a player, but fortunately there are enough players that share this predisposition that it is almost always included in games that adopt the normal conventions of cam control with an orbital. The way that movement works right now in the BG3 game, the camera is what we control for navigation, not the character, so it seems highly relevant.

I know it was mentioned before that the camera is a separate issue, but I think it's core. The character can be issued commands, but it's the camera we're actually managing to maneuver. In this current scheme the camera is pegged to have the angle tied to the zoom distance. That is not really conventional, it is rather unconventional actually, and runs roughshod over like years of training across many games and platforms using a particular method of camera or character control in 3D RPGs. In a more standard ISO game this can be overcome cause the cam is just locked at some set distance (usually too close and at too high an angle for my tastes) but this game is really more of a driving vibe for how the cam works. The cam in WASD I mean, it's basically a 3d driver, with the camera taking up the driving view, except that unlike a normal 3D driver I can't invert. I can only to track and chase, with the tunnel click, which is really uncomfortable for my sense of equilibrium and just frustrating. It's hard to explain why I don't like this for a 3d nav, maybe it is in the bones or the muscles, but I can't ignore it hehe.

I understand the alternative, basically to play in tactical view for the duration, but for me that angle is just horrible, and trying to keep the cam in proper iso just locked also seems impossible to maintain. It works for movement at distance but not really for interaction or engaging my immersion during exploration. So it's a bind. Characterizing it as a handful of people that are very loud just kinda minimizes what is in my view a pretty legitimate gripe with how characters are controlled and selected and moved about in BG3. The cursor left click is still pretty unresponsive too, which makes chaining (among other things) a chore. Selecting an action or another character or anything really hinders the ability to use the cursor effectively. The need to cancel action so often is also a hinderance. It's hard for me to move the party around and get them going where I want them to go. This sort of control scheme can't be mapped to a controller easily either. Unless the idea is to use the left thumbstick as a track cam and the right thumbstick like the mouse cursor, which I don't I relish the idea of. I'd probably get blown up faster than Smash TV if that's their plan lol. There are many reasons for them to revisit this issue and provide more options from my perspective and bias. It's not just wasted resources if it results in more sales though, because more people can actually play the game comfortably. I've ceded I think a lot of wishful ground from where I began in this thread initially, like I've basically given up on it shaping out with an RTS style command and control option, even though to me that is the spirit of Baldur's Gate. I would totally settle at this point for something more Dragon Age in the execution or just a standard driving cam. I worry if I don't get that at least, then the game is just toast for me and I burned a c-note and a year on the boards for a game I know I won't be able to play for any length of time lol.

Right now the only way I can really play this game is at max zoom out distance, constantly reorienting the camera at the furthest possible remove and often with the environments or ceiling clipping into frame. I'm constantly stuck between zooms or at some weird angle, like a disembodied ghost fiddling with a rear view mirror or something. Always trying to get the camera to do what I want it to do, so I can see what I want to see, so I can get the characters to go where I want them to go hehe.

But much of the beauty of the game for me outside of combat comes from the fully zoomed-in view. All the exploration and ambiance and environmental detailing. So it just feels like missing out on so much due to a control issue, simply to move around comfortably, when I feel like these issues have been well resolved in many other similar games. I can't figure why they'd they limit it in the ways they have. It seems like the 3d environments and gameplay views would work fine with a more standard driver, which would accommodate me much better.

Originally Posted by timebean
I know it is unpopular, but I too find the chaining system and turn-based combat easier to manage than highlight party and RtWP-style games. It let’s me take my time and think a bit about each move and feels less chaotic to me.

I also think the UI is fine (tho I would like spell and potion sorting options in their own mini windows).

But I do agree with many posts here and in other places that the storytelling is somehow off. I find it more difficult to get immersed in the tale compared to other rpgs I have played. It feels…messy and confusing but not in a particularly fun way. But it is difficult for me to articulate why I feel that way (as I am not a writer myself except for terrible fan fics…lol).

I enjoy reading posts from those who have thought about it more than me and are attempting to reason out why and try to pinpoint the issues in a more thoughtful way. I think it is a fun exercise in disentangling the creative process and imagining what might work better.


Edited: *sorry all!! I thought I was in the “doesn’t feel like dnd” thread! Am half asleep! Ignore my ramblings!*

It's cool, raises a fair point, sometimes the sleep deprivation pays off hehe. I have tried to accept the chain as a concept that many people will find simpler particularly if the game is played with a controller and as the pathing gets less hectic. But there are still issues with how the most basic cam control and character selection/movement are working for me that are hard to get past. The tunnel click and the cam tilt, how selection works with command always before targeting (instead of the reverse which I'd think would be needed for controller play) other things like that, which would make this scheme just work better for me on the whole. Things which aren't really working for me now, but might be tweaked into something I can use, even if I don't particularly like it at bedrock for a BG game.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 21/11/21 08:17 AM.
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Originally Posted by JandK
I'm just responding to someone who quoted me, and ultimately letting Larian know that I think the movement system works fine.

Works fine when I play it. Works fine when I see other people play it.

I don't think it's a problem, and in my opinion they shouldn't change it. Doing so would be a waste of resources and could potentially turn into something worse, not better.

Personally, I'm beginning to think that the current system isn't what a handful of vocal people are used to, so they're exaggerating problems in an effort to push for a system their muscle memory prefers. I might be wrong, I don't know, but it makes sense to my anecdotal observations.
Agreed ... curent system also works well for me, it could potentialy be better tho and there was few good ideas in this (and few other) threat ...

And concidering what happened with spellcasting, im also kinda affraid what will be outcome when Larian start to mess with slightly suboptimal, but still sufficient and working system to "make it better". :-/


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Originally Posted by JandK
I don't know what "make more click" means, but I don't have any problems with the chain system. It works fine for me.
In terms of efficiency it's genuinely atrocious under pretty much any sort of objective metric.
The numbers of clicks and general UI interactions required to achieve anything is at the bottom tier of what the genre usually can offer.
The fact that one can make it work to some limited extent if willing to struggle with it doesn't really make for a a great redeeming quality.

Last edited by Tuco; 21/11/21 12:07 PM.

Party control in Baldur's Gate 3 is a complete mess that begs to be addressed. SAY NO TO THE TOILET CHAIN
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