Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - General Pathfinder Wrath of the Righteous vs BG3

i was under the impression that this is a discussion on WotR and how it compares to BG3. Not sure where "writing a masterpiece" came into it.

Hmm. Guess I'll go into spoiler territory a bit.

There's a bit of major reactivity with her (and a few other party members). Depending on what you tell her throughout the game, there's actually a way to have her reverse course and slide back into full demon. She will leave your party during chapter 4 for a brief while if this happens. However, depending on your mythic path, she may leave your party permanently if this happens. If you are on the demon mythic path and commit to full demon during chapter 5 and you have her on the redemption path, she will also permanently leave your party then.

Desna's protection only applies for chapters 2 and 3 because she's a plot important character during that phase of the story. She loses that protection from chapter 4 onwards, and tells you as much if you talk to her then.

Also, when people praise WotR's writing, it's more from the standpoint of the party interactions, which are undeniably among the most lively and frequent in the entire gaming industry. The actual quality is subjective. The sheer frequency and variety does lots to elevate the companions into something greater, and is also an indirect way to add additional depth to them all.

SPOILERS AHEAD!

SATIRE WARNING -

Some of the companions in WotR piss me off like paladins with the one dimentional world views. Overly "good" with a neutral tag made me scratch my head at times like the half green dude that grinds on me. That being said there is a enough diversity of personality regardless what path you choose.

BG3 has 4 total doochers that I cannot wait to push in a ditch. SH, Lae'zel, wyll and Gale.

SH is a nihilistic douchbag and has a personality of someone I know, can literally turn ice cream sour just by looking at it. Yeah yeah secrets and stuff but there is no need to be a total dick about everything. That condescending tone when she says to you while doing the the head wobble "we have been though quite alot with plenty more to come , care to narrow it down a little?" just makes you want to smack her in the gob. BAM!!! Clear enough bitch?

Lae'zel is a zealot and has nothing interesting to say in EA. Simply DO IT THIS WAY!! GRRRR CRESHE GRRRR. How about no? Why are you here you are a bloody Githyanki fighter? GiThYaNkI do NOT mix with outer races in the forgotten realms they are mad. Voice acting is good though.

Wyll has got to be the worst of the bunch for me. He is a liar, hypocrite and so self important his head must have the gravity of a small moon. We can share the glory....how about you keep your glory on your way out the door you insufferable twat? I don't really know much of his story because the first encounter was enough for me. I mean it is a bit weird to me that everyone on the ship just goes "we need to find a healer" and auto-paths (badly) to the druid camp. Yeah and Wyll has "conditions" applied to him agreeing to join you. No mate I have been speaking to you for 15 seconds and you are already giving me the "egotisic paladin vibe". No such thing as a devil bound "good" warlock, what does he want to do with the kids anyway? Probably sell them to Geffory Epstine for trip to the island. No means no Bill Clinton.

Gale is a walking paradox and while his personality is somewhat okay his backstory is like Eh? A level one wizard prodigy that sleeps with gods and has a magic sucking nuke he got from a interdimsional book in an attempt to double dip his wick again? Yeah and has a scroll that can cure the tadpole but he has to die and drag you though a bunch of nonsense.....pass. Seriously?

The only character with "real" reactions to stuff is Astarion and he makes me laugh occasionally. Like when you get the Zombie wand and the woman is crying and he says something like "I don't know what she expected making a deal with a Hag" and you say "it was pretty funny though" before laughing saying "yeah it was".

I mean I can forgive a bit of bad storytelling in WotR simply because they have worked in like 9 mythic paths (no idea not finished one yet) with different story arcs in a game that takes 50 hours to get out of the character creator. You couldn't speed the prologue in WotR as fast as act 1 in BG3.

Now lets take BG3 story. Act 1 Tadpole - healer 1 fail - healer 2 fail - healer 3 fail - healer 4 fail - healer 5 fail - healer 6 fail but go do a bunch stuff based on really loose hypothetical conjecture because "reasons" and I maybe able to figure out.....can I just be a mindflayer instead mate I don't care anymore. Act 2 "we still need to find a bloody healer!!!"

To be fair, we'll probably find a permanent solution to the tadpole thing at the end of act 1. I don't see the game dragging its feet with that particular plot device all the way into act 2 as the story veers towards the topic of the Absolute itself, or else it's going to get REALLY old quickly. Then again, maybe I'm trying to be too optimistic.

The other companions could be improved if they actually had more meaningful party banter, or did more to actually interact with the world in general. Some of WotR's companions were often seen moving around the hub areas of each chapter based on the time of day or their personal quests, and were clearly doing other things besides waiting for your orders. BG3's companions aren't really in a position to do anything similar yet, but one would think they would at least spruce up the camp a bit more.

Gale, for instance, could stand to actually share his intellect with the party during combat. Suddenly, it blunts the perception that he's kind of a selfish egomaniac. Maybe BG3 could incorporate some combat banter for this, with Gale providing his thoughts on what he thinks of certain enemy types that you face. Wyll would probably have lots to say about goblins, but would be mostly clueless about much else, which would subtly betray the fact that he's probably not as good as he thinks he is.

I'd love this, personally - sets of voice calls from him when encounters are started where he'll name them and call out one or two important features, weaknesses or things to be wary of - as well as taking the egotistical edge off him a little, it would help to sell the game's intention of him having the knowledge of a former archmage, even if his power no longer reflects that.

Or they could play it like Quayle from BG1...

"I am so smart! S M R T smart!--- I mean S M A R T!"

Actually, Quayle rhymes with Gale, so I think they HAVE to do this...

Yeah, it could provide a unique form of party banter that no other games to my knowledge have ever utilized. Gale could totally freak out and panic when running into the Minotaurs for instance, and other party members could respond in some really hilarious ways. Wyll would probably quip that Gale is really not being helpful right now, and Lae'zel would helpfully point out that everything dies if you stab it hard enough.

I can practically hear their delivery for such lines ^.^

That happening actually genuinely pissed me off.

Arue was called "incel bait" by a poster on reddit, in his post where he explained what his problem was with the WotR companions. I'm gonna admit I agreed with most what he said, about other companions too. To me Arue feels like that overly shy overly apologetic waifu specifically created for the weebos. Not to incite any negative feeling on here but if I'm to describe the way the game makes me feel, then that's what I'd say. She paints you a picture in which she used to be this "ultra evil" demoness who's lived for centuries and done countless atrocities, dining on souls and drinking blood for breakfast and stomping on people's lives for fun, for centuries.... and then suddenly she's all shy and apologetic always blushing always "acting cute and vulnerable" always the "trembling voice" . I just don't get it. Like, wtf happened??? She's just trying to reform, not suffering from some sort of amnesia or bipolar disorder or something. That's why I maintain the stance that "the companions don't feel convincing". They don't feel real or relatable at all.

It's not just Arueshalae. And at this point folk would try to give me all these "logical" or "rational" explanations that could possibly be behind why these characters act as they do. But that's never the problem. To me the big problem here is, the game (as in, the writers), seems to try too hard to preach to the player grandiose life stories, profound life lessons, dramatic turns of events, deep philosophical ideas, while neglecting to make the characters real, believable, and relatable. I try to avoid using the word "edgy", but tbh a lot of the moments and the things that the characters say feel really edgy and cringeworthy to me.

Yeah, this. Those paragraphs always make me wince.

I've never been a writer but it seems to me that when you're creating your own characters there's this urge to make your characters super edgy and outstanding and preeminent and all that, which is like one of the mortal enemies of "good writing", from where I see it.

Yeah, I'd not necessarily use "edgy" to describe the writing, but if out of six female companions the three romanceable ones also happen to be murderers, and two also cannibals (while the third apparently was a cannibal in the beta, except they've removed that)... I am not sure what the writers intended here.

Why is it that a soft spoken female character trying to change her nature is considered "incel-bait" but Sosiel, a soft spoken male character isn't mentioned at all? Is it just because Arueshalae is a demon that is trying to be the opposite of what she was because of a single event that showed her just how wrong everything she used to be was, or is it the notion that soft spoken females aren't a good thing? Since the term was "incel-bait", i have to assume it's the latter, which is pretty insulting to females everywhere. I know lots of soft spoken females, are they "incel-bait" as well? Does Shadowhearts obvious tsundere vibes make her the same, or is she grumpy enough to push away those looking for an easy relationship?

Also, if soft spoken female characters are "edgy", that term has lost all meaning.

Honestly I just want to turn Arueshalae undead or make her a proper demon, why would you want a succubus that doesn't suck or bus? Incel is just another word for "broke" and I don't know what a waifu is? Sounds Japanese, is it reference to those weird anime porn addicts? Either way a succubus is a mirror for the observers desire so the "innocent but not really thing" is kind of a decent take imo. If she was 500lbs and spoke like Barry White with a chest infection it would appeal to less I guess...unless of course Jabba White just happens to be your thing.

Wenduag is a rough talking knutcase spider mutant who is a bit like Lae'zel but with a personality. Given the choice I would probably go for the mutant, wouldn't be the first time.

Oh no worries. The guy who made that post discussed every single companion in details, who "passed" and who "didn't pass" in his book, and why. No one is singling the succubus out for hate here. Plenty of players praise the characters to high heaven saying this is the best writing they've ever seen. To me it's quite entertaining reading people's posts describing how they feel about things, whether I feel the same way or not. It's enlightening, actually. If that's the way someone feels about something, that's how they feel. No point getting upset at or trying to question why they feel that way (because you're not going to agree with their "why" anyway).

From my perspective, your post exemplifies why. Are the soft-spoken women you know are also murderers who commited countless atrocities? Because this is who Arueshalae is. She is basically a serial killer who has found faith through a deux ex machina intervention. She has murderered, tortured, worked in the arena and the demonic brothel; I recall one of the slavers praises her as a "valued customer" in the demonic slave markets... how many evils has she committed in the centuries of her existence as a demon? Yet you, just the same as writers, reduce this character to a "soft spoken female". As you wrote before, you don't care about inconsistencies in the characterization, as long as she is nice.

So, she is indeed an attempt at Fall-from-Grace sans what actually made F-f-G a sympathetic, appealing character and probably one of the most interesting companions in PS:T. As in, the most shoehorned and unconvincing way to make a succubus redemption story instead of a background of defiance of one's pre-coded nature that follows the game's theme of a party with heavily messed-up pasts that everyone has to carry as a burden.

A personal take and all - but is there actually a single not poorly made / unappealing romance subplot in either Pathfinder game apart from Kalikke, a DLC character added some time after release of the first game? I know there are Tristian fangirls out there, but (again, personally) he's yet another case of "my character can stand him because he's nice and LG and all, but I, as a player, hate him so much, and end up pulling my roleplaying muscle being polite to the bugger". And as for WoTR, I've heard some... things about Camelia. I mean, to each their own and all, but there's such a thing as *too* edgy. Neither Minthara nor Lae'zel can hold a candle to her in that regard...

You mean, Kalikke, the character who, in order to romance at all, you must (MUST, no way to even being her romance if you don't) first sleep with her sister, even if you dislike her with great intensity? That romance? Don't get me wrong, the sisters were interesting and their sub plot was interesting, but their romance plotting was awful.

I agree; I don't think Arueshalae was actually intended to be a bait of any kind, but she does seem like a fanfiction attempt.

As for Camellia, well, she is a psychopath. I don't think she was intended to be likeable, with the predictable result that most players don't like her. I'd still have expected someone with high wisdom to be better at hiding her nature. She kind of reminds me of Astarion in this regard.

As a huge fan of Fall-from-Grace, Arueshalae feels like a missed opportunity. I don't want to ascribe intentions towards the developers, but I do feel that Arueshalae exhibits many typical "waifu tropes" - often times in disservice of her arc and character. Some minor spoilers below.

It's not just that she's characterized as soft-spoken (i.e. like Sosiel or Ember). It's as others have pointed out - it's the package of overt submissiveness, the "cutesy shyness", and the almost awkward, cartoony-melodramatic innocence. I.e. the self-imposed "horny jail", or the lines like: "I have to break with everything demonic in me but please, Desna, let me keep my beautiful irresistible wings?" I know the game justifies some of her innocent behavior with the "previously-unfeeling-android-learns-human-emotions plot-line", but this doesn't change the fact this is all in service of the writers' choice to characterize her as such.

On its own, this characterization isn't even a major issue. Characters can be cutesy and innocent and be well-written. The problem is, given her premise, that none of this is balanced by a proper focus and introspection on the horrid nature of her previous existence, which is what would've given her arc weight, and her character depth.

While the writers definitely do tell you how horrible she used to be, there's little effort made to make you feel it. Her words, action, and storyline feels much more like dealing with a teenager learning to work with her emotions (to love and to forgive) than dealing with a reforming mass murderer. You really do not sense the gravitas of the thousands of years of evil - the feelings of guilt and regret of an immortal who has seen and done some truly despicable things.

This is most noticeable in how the game frames the memory of her victims - the sources of her guilt. They're almost universally portraited as belligerent and intensively spiteful. In fact, I'd go so far to say that the game deliberately goes out of its way to downplay her victims' relatability, make them unsympathetic, and shift the victimhood over to Arueshalae. The ghost tormentors in her dream are unrelenting in their hatred and abuse (and yes, I know technically they are manifestations of her guilt). The specific victim you meet in the abyss is characterized more like an overly-attached, psychotic ex-boyfriend that the player has to deal with (another romance trope btw), than a genuine victim.

Those encounters seem to be designed to make the player feel protective of Arueshalae, rather than force them to confront the reality of who she used to be. And I think that's the biggest mistake in her writing.

For me, the former, that invoking of the "she's sweet and adorable and must be protected at all cost" instinct ultimately feels very manufactured. It feels like the game is trying too hard to make her likeable. Whereas I think forcing the player feel and understand the depth of harm and pain she has caused, and thus the impossibly large mountain of crime she has to repent from, would've been so much more interesting. It would've given the weight of her struggle real meaning. Her choice to repent, despite knowing that almost no amount of good she can do now will ever erase the evil she has committed, would've made her a truly remarkable character.

Instead, I think Owlcat really chose to play it a bit safe, and the game suffered for it.

This is a very well written analysis. I may or may not agree with what someone is saying, but It's fun to read solid reasoning put together nicely, because it's not just another plain hate/love post. This analysis really nails it but of course I myself can never write up anything this eloquent.

"Trying too hard" is what I've used quite a lot both on these forums and in the reddit discussions. To me the game constantly feels "trying too hard" - at the very least for both the general plot and the companion writing - and without the appropriate amount of subtlety, finesse, and buildup the results feel forced and rather mediocre. For how grandiose and dramatic the companion stories are, they'd need to be a lot more involved with more buildup, more exposition, more development.

Take Kivan from BG for example. When you know his story - he and his loved one were caught and tortured, but only he made it out alive while the woman died - you easily feel a sense of injustice and feel like exacting vengeance on the ones responsible. His story is very easy to relate to - someone you care about being the victim of some injustice and you feeling the urge to do something about it. Later on your party run into the main guy responsible for his suffering, and he says something about that, acknowledging the situation. And when you finally kill the guy, he says something very simple but very fitting. That's about it for Kivan's "quest" - extremely simple, but extremely real and relatable. This, combined with the fact that he is portrayed as a man of few words, quiet, stoic (something like Ekun from Kingmaker) - which is understandable (and classic) for someone who's been through what he's been through, makes him a very real, relatable, and likeable character. His story is very simple, but I really like his character.

Or Coran. His "quest" is picking up a wyvern head after killing the thing then turning it in to a temple for 2000 gold. Takes about 10 minutes. But his character is very well portrayed - a fun-loving, free-spirit kind of guy, the witty, joker guy of the group who you'd never see get angry throughout a movie. His character is consistently portrayed through the short whistling which is one of his selection lines, his banter with Safana and other party members, as well as his his encounter with Brielbara in Baldur's Gate. Again, his character is very easy to relate to, very easy to imagine. Epic, profound backstory involving planar travel and demon lords? Nope. But I really like the guy.

On the other hand, for the life of me, I can't like Ember. She's essentially a kid and her understanding of life is like that of a kid, except she seems to have some sort of super ability to see through someone's soul and feel what they truly feel, even if that someone is a demon lord. She's also not right in the head (which the game uses as an excuse for her super naive thinking and naive ideas), and just wants to preach to a demon lord, no big deal. And after 3 chapters and a half BAM you actually get her to face the aforementioned demon lord and let her do her preaching. And OF COURSE her preaching does have some effect on said demon lord to the point that, apparently, she even comes to the mortal world during the final confrontation of Ember's quest even though the demon lord is supposedly very busy with all of her cosmic-level scheming. BAM. Oh, and Ember also becomes some sort of living saint to cultists and demons alike, who worship the hell out of her, as a by-the-way kind of thing. And you can achieve all this just by letting her tag along and supporting her with a couple of simple dialogue selections, even with just the Neutral selections. Personally I just can't imagine how all this could possibly pan out at all, and how something so ludicrous could actually work out. I can't relate to this story, and don't feel like I care about it, at all. And in the end I don't think I like Ember at all as a character, even though she's a must-have of the party because she's my buffbot.

Owlcat tried to make a massive, epic masterpiece with a scope way beyond their budget and capability, and their game suffered for it. They tried too hard to create epic, outstanding characters with epic, dramatic backstories with profound ideas and life lessons, and their game suffered for it.