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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Nov 2021
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You should be walking over to a downed ally and trying to stabilize them with a healers kit. This act would not even bring them back to their feet but would simply stop them from needing to make death saving throws. It's something that any class could do.
I think it would be fine to be able to administer a healing potion to a stabilized ally by walking next to them and using an action. That ally should already be stabilized though. Letting someone gets down in combat should be punishing. The stakes are so low with the current system that the tension in combat is completely undermined.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
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Stabilizing first is the other extreme. It is a magic potion. You can get an unconscious person to drink. But it should cost an action.
Last edited by GM4Him; 30/11/21 11:22 PM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Sep 2020
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I think it would be fine to be able to administer a healing potion to a stabilized ally by walking next to them and using an action. That ally should already be stabilized though. Letting someone gets down in combat should be punishing. The stakes are so low with the current system that the tension in combat is completely undermined. I'm fine with forcing a potion down an unconscious and dying ally's throat. It's magical healing and thus reasonable to bring them back to consciousness that way. The action + movement + consumable cost is high enough that it doesn't step on other classes' toes too much or make it too powerful, and pouring it down their throat as an action is realistic enough.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
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Otherwise, if 10 Duergars will decide to heal one of them together, sure it will take them all their turns in a round, but the recipient will effectively become unkillable for that time. That is the most funny thing about this all ... Concidering that Larian starts to agree with us (and yes im part of this group surprisingly  ) and set Shove and Stealth as Action instead of Bonus Action ... and (yes im supporting this idea too) they will remove Bonus Action weapon maneuvers ... what will those 10 Duergars do? If only I could share the same optimism that you have, about what Larian will change here, if anything. I can tell you what Duergars do now, however. First goes into Invisibility, runs towards Lae'zel and shoves her into the lava. Oh bugger - she was too far away from it, and didn't quite make it there. No worries, second Duergar repeats the same process, and now Lae'zel successfully lands into the lava. Insta-death. As of now, the action economy allows them to do that in a single turn, and Shove being guaranteed if executed by an unseen character doesn't improve my survivability either. If Shove will ever become a full Action, they will only have to change their tactics slightly - everyone goes to Invisibility on their first turns, then on the next come Shoves aplenty. And what countermeasures I have against invisible enemies? Bupkis. In BG2, Glitterdust worked wonders in such scenarios, but we don't have it here. Although, strictly speaking, this isn't really the thread's subject, so next... Dont be mad at me, if you have any other scenario in mind, please share ... Even so amazing and flawless (kidding) creature like me can potentialy make misstake, so its possible that i forget something.  But right now ... no matter wich side im watching it ... it seems to me like throwing potion would be the most uneffective thing you could do in combat, IF at least Larian would delete that part where potions have effect if they miss ... after all, that hit chance is in fact substitute for catching roll. When your party is outnumbered like 12:4, your best option is to find a terrain chokepoint, use it as a force multiplier (same as the famous battle at Thermopylae) and concentrate on one enemy at a time (because, obviously, a Duergar with 1hp left hits just as hard as one with full hp). Current implementation of potion throwing severely disrupts this strategy, so it's not as daft as it looks. [sarcasm] Why would i take Wizard with me, you know ... the dude that can cast almost litteraly any magic spell that is in the game, including brutally damaging spells, guaranted hit spells, AoE spells, crowd controll spells and most of them is even able to affect multiple enemies, when there is single (again litteraly, since i didnt even found second sleep potion in my last play ) item that i can throw ONCE at SINGLE target and get the same result as one of those spells? Totally useless class indeed. You probably mean something like Fireball? A pity we won't have it for at least 2 years. Grease? Bottles are way more efficient, can be thrown by anyone, come in truckloads and don't require spell slots. Oh, and they can also be thrown much farther away! Can't think of anything else that can be used effectively against lvl 5 enemies apart of Chromatic Orb (good, but not AoE, not really) - do you have examples? Why would i take Clerict with me, you know ... the dude that can curently cast two different heals per run, can ressurect my unconcios friends, give us blessings to boost our combat capabilities, have lots and lots crowd controll, debuffing, and damaging spells ... and also can nicely work as a tank for us ... when i can simply throw a potion that can heal single target only, once per round only, while he is conscious only and wich would take the reaction from him for the rest of that round?
Totally useless class indeed.
[/sarcasm] One little problem, however: practically all Cleric's buffs require concentration, and they can't concentrate on more than 1 spell at a time. If I find Shadowheart in a bit of a fix, and decide to put on Shield Of Faith - here goes my Bless for the rest of the party. Also, did Larian fix it, or does Cleric still lose concentration on any surface damage, without a DC roll? I remember seeing Lae'zel rolling DC for her Shield Of Faith, but don't remember about Cleric.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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First goes into Invisibility, runs towards Lae'zel and shoves her into the lava. Oh bugger - she was too far away from it, and didn't quite make it there.
No worries, second Duergar repeats the same process, and now Lae'zel successfully lands into the lava. Insta-death.
As of now, the action economy allows them to do that in a single turn, and Shove being guaranteed if executed by an unseen character doesn't improve my survivability either. If Shove will ever become a full Action, they will only have to change their tactics slightly - everyone goes to Invisibility on their first turns, then on the next come Shoves aplenty. And what countermeasures I have against invisible enemies? Bupkis. In BG2, Glitterdust worked wonders in such scenarios, but we don't have it here. Its cute that you are dementing your own example ... But exactly as you said ... there is zero relation to potion throwing, so ... w/e i gues. Dont be mad at me, if you have any other scenario in mind, please share ... Even so amazing and flawless (kidding) creature like me can potentialy make misstake, so its possible that i forget something. But right now ... no matter wich side im watching it ... it seems to me like throwing potion would be the most uneffective thing you could do in combat, IF at least Larian would delete that part where potions have effect if they miss ... after all, that hit chance is in fact substitute for catching roll. When your party is outnumbered like 12:4, your best option is to find a terrain chokepoint, use it as a force multiplier (same as the famous battle at Thermopylae) and concentrate on one enemy at a time (because, obviously, a Duergar with 1hp left hits just as hard as one with full hp). Current implementation of potion throwing severely disrupts this strategy, so it's not as daft as it looks. Same as abowe ... I mean yes chokepoints was indeed often used scenarios in many military situations in our world ... but i see no relation to that suggestion i posted. O_o So ... no idea what were you trying to say here. :-/ Sure, several ... So the question was wich spells can be casted only by caster and not by any scroll or potion right? (Yes im purposely ignoring Magical Artefacts that allows us to cast spell once per Long Rest.) https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Dancing+Lightshttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Eldritch+Blasthttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Friendshttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Shillelaghhttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Thaumaturgyhttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Thorn+Whiphttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Burning+Hands (Not sure here ... but i dont think i have seen scroll, could be misstaken tho) https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Dissonant+Whispershttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Faerie+Firehttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Hail+of+Thornshttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Hellish+Rebukehttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Tasha's+Hideous+Laughterhttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Thunderwavehttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Cloud+of+Daggershttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Darknesshttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Crown+of+Madnesshttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Darkvisionhttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Enlarge+-+Reducehttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Enhance+Abilityhttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Heat+Metal (I believe i have seen this one in previous patch, but not anymore) https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Moonbeamhttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Pass+without+Tracehttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Protection+from+Poisonhttps://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/ShatterIs that example enough? Also note that every single scroll that is in game can be easily added to this list with condition "upcasted" since scrolls (as far as i know) contain only lowest possible spell level.  One little problem, however: practically all Cleric's buffs require concentration, and they can't concentrate on more than 1 spell at a time. If I find Shadowheart in a bit of a fix, and decide to put on Shield Of Faith - here goes my Bless for the rest of the party. Therefore you should not do that. Also this "problem" for lack of better therm ... is part if Cleric design from WotC ... that is not something we should blame Larian for ... therefore its not quite relevant for both this forum and this topic talking about potions. Also, did Larian fix it, or does Cleric still lose concentration on any surface damage, without a DC roll? I remember seeing Lae'zel rolling DC for her Shield Of Faith, but don't remember about Cleric. As far as i know they are rolling ... Most people complain however on the fact that they are forced to roll a lot more often than in tabletop.
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 01/12/21 06:52 PM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings.  Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Aug 2014
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PC's getting downed should have more impact on combat so +1 to that. It should be something to avoid at all costs. Right now anyone can just get them back into the fight immediately by just using "help" or throwing a potion from a distance. It's a minor inconvenience.
The easy revival through help or potion throw is also really OP when there are less enemies than party members. You can keep bringing your party members back up with just an action and enemies have to try to down the same PC again and again while the rest of the party keeps attacking. An ogre can never win against two level 1 PC's because of this. This stupid whac-a-mole has to stop. Thrown potions are just as bad as "help" because they work from anywhere.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
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I think I've only ever needed to use Withers once or twice and a Revivify scroll maybe a dozen times after 500+ hours of gameplay, and this was usually only because of some Larian cheese homebrew the enemy used against me.
For example, had to use Withers to bring a character back because the hag tossed the character down the hole. No body. Had to go to Withers. She was 15 feet from the edge, mind you, and somehow the hag threw her into the hole, but that's what I'm saying. If enemies couldn't throw you 15+ feet into holes, I wouldn't have needed Withers.
Likewise, another example was the Githyanki Patrol. They Misty Stepped up onto the battlements back when height advantage existed, and they wiped the floor with my characters by pegging them at long range from above. Only Astarion escaped by fleeing to the Flaming Fists and getting their help in killing the remaining Githyanki. Then he returned and used Revivify Scrolls on everyone.
Why do I hardly ever need Revivify or Withers? Because anyone can throw potions around and potions can heal people with BA. It's too easy to recover from injuries.
But then, if they didn't do this, the enemies would most likely become so much harder, even in their nerfed state. Now wouldn't they?
Then again, if they trusted the original 5e system, none of this would be a problem.
Again, potions should not be more powerful than spells. If I can use potions like candy and pop them as Bonus Actions every round, healing 2d4+2 or even 4d4+4 HP, AND I can have allies also throw additional potions to then increase my character's HP even higher, I could essentially restore a level 4 Fighter from 1 HP to 45 HP in one round if all four characters heal him/her.
But why should I? If my fighter goes down, a single character can still use Help and bring him back immediately. Each round, he falls, and each round one of the party members just pops him right back up. Mama Spider is no longer a big deal because she's so focused on keeping the downed character down that she's not really attacking the rest of the crew who is sitting back and just dwindling her down. Why bother healing the fighter full? She'll just knock him down again next round. Keep using one character to bring him back up, and the other two can just destroy her.
Done that tactic before. Yes, at some points she gains more attacks, but when you can have Astarion hide and pop out and Sneak Attack and then pop back into hiding again, or you can have Gale hurl some powerful spells at her that weaken her quickly... It turns the Mama Spider into a youngling real quick. This will be especially true once the level cap is lifted and we're at like level 5 by the time we face her.
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member
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member
Joined: Sep 2021
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As a side note: drinking potion as a bonus action is one of the most popular homebrew I have encountered in 5e. Just saying.
Last edited by Scales & Fangs; 01/12/21 06:27 PM.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Oct 2021
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Let's make it a new Archetype
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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Why do I hardly ever need Revivify or Withers? Im asking myself the same question ... since there isnt even dificiulty there, we are playing the same game and i rarely use Withers, or Revivify scroll ... maybe you do something wrong? Just saying. If I can use potions like candy and pop them as Bonus Actions every round, healing 2d4+2 or even 4d4+4 HP, AND I can have allies also throw additional potions to then increase my character's HP even higher, I could essentially restore a level 4 Fighter from 1 HP to 45 HP in one round if all four characters heal him/her. I just love this theory every time you repeat it ... it never gets old. All characters waste their actions (and one of them even Bonu action) to "keep your fighter alive and on full HP" ... while none enemy gets even single damage. So ... you waste single turn ... Fighter is full ... so are enemies ... You waste another turn ... Fighter is full ... so are enemies ... You waste another turn ... Fighter is full ... so are enemies ... You waste another turn ... Fighter is full ... so are enemies ... And now you no longer have any potion left. What exactly did you achieve by using this "incredibly OP mechanic" ? I mean ... you can essentialy just destroy all your potions in first turn, and outcome will be the same, you just save some time. Good question ... Since you are the one who stated that you have the option, it would be great if you would answer it aswell. If my fighter goes down, a single character can still use Help and bring him back immediately. Each round, he falls, and each round one of the party members just pops him right back up. This "tactic" for lact of better therm is anyway only useable against single oponent. Also do you find such game fun for you? Bcs if not, you can proudly pat your shoulder that you exploited through combat encounter, but you essentialy achieved nothing. As a side note: drinking potion as a bonus action is one of the most popular homebrew I have encountered in 5e. Just saying. Agreed +1! This is one of things that should never change!
Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 01/12/21 07:13 PM.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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apprentice
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OP
apprentice
Joined: Nov 2021
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The problem with the help system is that it leads to an exploitable loop in the game state which can be reached organically through regular play. The player will face off against a singular tough boss enemy and that enemy may down a character. The player then helps the character because that is what the game tells you to do to downed characters. On the next boss round, the boss downs the same character and the player simply performs the task that the game tutorial told him to do to downed characters again. This is bad design and removes the fail state from poor player decision making in combat through an overly protective system.
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enthusiast
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enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2019
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It'd certainly be nice to administer a potion normally, and refrain from doing something ridiculous like throwing the potion at an injured party member. Or heaven forbid, create a 'healing surface' they could walk into. At times, this game comes off as utterly bizarre. I admit, throwing potions at people is good for a laugh, but is that what we're going for here?
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