Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback SHOOOOOOOVE

Fun Fact: At level 3 a Way of Open Hands monk can attempt to shove enemies 15 feet away (freely, upon a successful hit with Furry of Blows)!

Extrapolating from the distance of normal shoves in BG3, monks will be able to shove enemies >45 feet away horizontally!!

I was thinking at least a good 60.

For those not foot aware, 45 feet is 13.7 meters. 60 is 18.2.

Oh, I 100% agree with you. I hate mods too, and if I don't ever have to try and integrate any I won't. I also agree with I don't think we should have to, but sadly I think we probably will have to. It's entirely obvious that Larian has no interest in: 1)Communicating/listening to their community of players, or 2) making a game that is faithful the 5e ruleset. At this point in the process, since they seem to be going further and further away from 5e, I'm guessing that those of us who want a faithful game are probably going to have to end up modding it in order for it to be the game we wanted in the first place. Very sad, but probably true.

I mean, would it be too much to ask to just have the current version of Shove and Throw made into a setting adjustment in Gameplay settings? If the devs at Larian are so fired up about wonky game engine physics and how they can break them, that's great, but at least give your faithful to 5e audience the ability to turn that stuff off and play a game that is fully faithful to the ruleset.

Then again what's great about Larian is how ambitious and dedicated they are. They could see the worth of a Core Rules D&D setting for a D&D game. It's a well tested system players already know and enjoy.

Larian goes to crazy lengths with other aspects of the game, all the permutations, different outcomes and player agency etc., so why not this one? Gameplay is even more important than being able to break Alfira's lute or snatching the runepowder keg from Philomeen while she's distracted. Gameplay is there from start to finish and definitely needs similar versatility or breadth.

I guess it comes down to how strongly they feel their changes to 5e gameplay are "fun for everyone". And that's why we are active on their forum.

Just a reminder that plenty of people in the community like shove just the way it is.

They certainly are welcome to speak up, too.

I'd be curious as to how that breaks out to "likes shove" vs "accepts shove as a matter of course and would probably not care if it were nerfed or went away, either".

In this vein, the solution is simple. Stop calling it a Baldur's Gate DnD 5e game and call it DoS3 or anything else. Then there would be no expectations as to how Shove were handled. They could freely do whatever they want without debateable consideration.

Joe

I vote for third option ...

"Accept shove as it is ... would not care if it were nerfed to cost full Action ... but will be a little sad if it went away completely."

Why don't they just put the current Shove on a Feat? Then it can stay and people who want to use it can use it. There are plenty of Feats in the PhB that are barely used or underwhelming, putting this on them would make them much more viable. I do still think it needs a nerf but then we can appease everyone. Strength characters like Barbarian and Fighter could use it, Dex characters can ignore it, along with classes that already get it through mechanics (Battlemaster, Monk, ect.)

Tavern Brawler is a great candidate for it, as there is no grappling yet and the feat was always underwhelming. Athlete is another good one.

The biggest probelm, imho, is how much it is a go-to for the enemy AI. I can ignore it as a player even now. If that solution reduces it for use by the AI, too, I'm all for it.

Joe

Considering this would probably remove Shove from the move pool/hotbar to be unlocked through this, then most likely. And enemies who take it, if they are going off of player levels, would lose a feat that could also be annoying against players, like Sentinel or Polearm Master.

They do speak up. Every time they play the game and use the shove feature and have a blast doing it.

They have no reason to come here and argue about it because they're not advocating for change. Let's face it, the enormous bulk of players of this game have never even logged onto these forums. Meanwhile, a handful of people (maybe two dozen, high end?) keep saying they don't like shove, as if the repetition of singular voices could somehow through illusory equal thousands of voices.


Just my opinion, of course, but I think your finger is way off the pulse. People love shoving and jumping and having interactive maps that take advantage of a three dimensional environment.


You don't get to pick the name. As close as the product may be to your heart, you don't own the rights.

I like the name Baldur's Gate III. I also like having the option to shove in the game. Makes the game more fun and interesting. I'd be seriously disappointed if it went away. That would make the game boring.

Not wanting shove to go away. Just want it so that you can't shove and/or throw 30 feet or more off cliffs and into lava. Shove IS a 5e option. Throw is fun.

Just tame it down. Instead of 30 feet, make it 10 so I don't have Lae'zel getting yeeted into lava from 30 feet from the edge.

Players using shove in game doesn't mean they "have a blast" shoving or, if they do, that they agree that the current implementation is better than others.

For 1, they're theoretically EA testers, so they're expected to test out all the things in game.
2. It's a BA ability and many classes don't get bonus actions, so using it is essentially free. Ease of use doesn't necessarily equal enjoyability.
3. Even if players do like being able to shove, this doesn't mean they like getting shoved by enemies, especially into lava or pits
4. Even if players do like being able to shove, they might like it equally if it was implemented differently - less distance, different type of check, restricted to an action (this allows martial characters to shove twice when they get Extra Attack)

You have no evidence besides your personal experiences about how many players are "having a blast" using shove, so please don't use this unknown population as evidence for your arguments. The only evidence we have of what people like or don't like is from posts to these forums/reddit, and then Larian additionally has feedback given directly to them.

Well, since I made no claim of knowing the pulse, but I did inquire about it. Nor did I say i get to pick the name. All I did was make a suggestion based on expectations. I'm not sure what you are arguing about.

Joe

The same complaints here are also on the Steam Discussion forum, so I'm sorry but it seems to be more than just here on the forums. If this is what you enjoy, good. It's also clear a lot of others do not enjoy it, yet you seem to not care about the audience that Larian is advertising to that will not enjoy this. This isn't just for Divinity fans, this is also for the TTRPG fans who are being told, on the Steam Page, the game is Based on 5e. I honestly think this should be renamed to Inspired by 5e as it would more truthful. Also, by saying combat will be boring without Shove, you do not understand just how many things are actually bonus actions. Several classes have Bonus action mechanics, several spells are bonus action, there are plenty of things to do with bonus actions besides shove. Now, if there is nothing to add other than arguing, may we please try and come up with an outcome that everyone will agree with and appease both the Divinity fans, who want Larian to continue the direction of the game, and the 5e fans, who are being told this is based on the most popular edition of DnD outside of 3.5.

You aren't missing much, it's exactly as it looks: he's being purposefully dismissive of fan feedback as "niche and irrelevant" compared to the aggregated data of the broad audience.

It's not really THAT relevant as an argument to begin with (using a feature doesn't mean liking it, and liking it doesn't mean there isn't room for improvement), it fundamentally mistakes obliviousness for endorsement (people who aren't familiar with interconnected systems don't have strong opinions about them, imagine that!), not to mention it disregard the expertise that a specialized audience may bring to a discussion as irrelevant for the sake of a "Many won't notice this" type of rebuttal (imagine going to a motor magazine and telling to someone reviewing a motorbike or a car "Well, people will like it anyway, even if you are finding all these issues with the design and mechanics"), but that's pretty much his entire angle in a lot of these discussions, for some reason.

To add to this, how does ANYONE really know how many people like a mechanic and how many don't? You can't assume that just because thousands of people are playing and not speaking out that they like the mechanic. Many may simply not like discussing these things on forums and many may simply not have time.

I mean, until playing this game, I've NEVER been involved in forum discussions. I am only out here now because I love this game and really want it to be great. Right now, it's good, but my biggest issue with it is the exploits and gimmicks. The unbalanced nature of the game is really hindering it. I don't enjoy playing games where I have to save scum constantly because enemies can win initiative, get lucky and girl my characters into lava. Likewise, I don't enjoy playing games where I'm encouraged to do illogical things like long rest frequently in order to:

A. Have meaningful dialogue between characters.
B. Recover HP and spell slots just so I can complete a side story quest (like having to long rest after fighting ettercaps just so I can clear the whispering depths or just before the hag so I can actually beat her).

A game should be well balanced to start, and if players don't like it, THEN they mod it to their liking. Don't force players to mod a game so that it'll actually be balanced.

Again, like chess, it's like giving the queen free reign, and if you want to have an actual balanced game of chess you have to modify the rules yourself. Makes no sense. If you want Queen Supreme Chess, then modify the chess rules to make queens supreme and all other pieces lame. Don't start with Queen Supreme rules and expect players to modify things so they can play legit chess.

On top of that, players who like shoving probably don't like it mainly because it's a bonus action...
But that's one of the main reasons given by players that "don't like it".

It would be less OP as an Action, even with range as is. Especially now with throw... Being able to do both in the same turn.

And I want to emphasize:

At level 5 according to RAW, most martials can shove up to 2x per turn. At level 11? Fighters can shove 3 times. Double both of those numbers if you use Action Surge.
However, in Larian's implementation they'll only be able to shove once.

If you think Larian's implementation of shove is too powerful to be a BA, you should want shove to be an attack-equivalent action.
If you really like shoving people, you should also want shove to be an attack-equivalent action*.

*This primarily helps non-rogue martials, but casters can Thunderwave to shove possibly multiple enemies and Misty Step to disengage as BAs, so they're fine.