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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I allways felt like this is yet another effect of map being actualy a lot biger than we see ...

I mean, if there would be some "traveling" animation between fallen Nautiloid and Druid Grove ... and some tooltip would say to us that we just spend 8h traveling through the forest ...
Nobody would raise even eyebrow. laugh
Can confirm. My eyebrows would be lower if travel to different locations was represented by a traveling animation instead of walking for literally 20 seconds. Then, each area could be better tuned to represent ~1-2 long rest's worth of encounters.
- downed MF ship + Crypt
- Blighted Village + cellars
- the north of the map past the broken bridge
- Swamp + Hag Lair
- Goblin outpost + goblin fortress
- Underdark

All of these would be roughly appropriate for doing in 1 or 2 long rests with a campsite put somewhere in the middle that you'd have to find (maybe 2 campsites in the Underdark) . And you'd be able to freely fast travel from location to location, with the only penalty for doing so being the loading time. No walking required!

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
You keep talking like the clock is a fundamental element of chess.

It absolutely is fundamental. Do you even play chess?

In chess, the most important thing is seeing ahead as many moves as possible. This requires thinking through several different possibilities.

Perceiving deeply into a game of chess requires time. The more time you have to think, the more time you have to consider future moves and thus make better moves yourself. This is known.

A clock provides a restraint. It restricts your time to think. It keeps you from seeing as deeply into the permutations.

*

Just like having more rest time makes BG3 easier, so too does having more time to think make chess easier.

It's an obvious comparison anyone should be capable of understanding.

Last edited by JandK; 20/02/22 09:00 PM.
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Seems to get a little heated here. Cool it, please.

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Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by GM4Him
You keep talking like the clock is a fundamental element of chess.

It absolutely is fundamental. Do you even play chess?

In chess, the most important thing is seeing ahead as many moves as possible. This requires thinking through several different possibilities.

Perceiving deeply into a game of chess requires time. The more time you have to think, the more time you have to consider future moves and thus make better moves yourself. This is known.

A clock provides a restraint. It restricts your time to think. It keeps you from seeing as deeply into the permutations.

*

Just like having more rest time makes BG3 easier, so too does having more time to think make chess easier.

It's an obvious comparison anyone should be capable of understanding.

I do play chess. The clock is not a fundamental aspect of the game. It is for competitive play, but not the game itself. I can play chess without a clock.

Long and Short rest limitations are fundamental to playing D&D. That's why I equated it to Chess and the queen's restrictions. Because restricting the queen is fundamental to the game.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I can play chess without a clock.

Exactly. Just like you can play BG3 with unlimited rests. The lack of time restraint makes chess easier, just like the lack of rest restraint makes BG3 easier.

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Making a game easier? Sounds like a thing for difficulty settings. Lower difficulty settings = unlimited resting and fast travel. Higher difficulty settings = camping sites and restricted fast travel. Everyone wins, especially if there are many difficulty toggles/sliders so players can maximally customize their experience.

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Depending on the competition, I've found time restraints to often make chess easier, unless the opponent is experienced enough to not need a significant amount of thinking time. But it's a poor analogy either way. Personally, I think short/long rests are tricky from a design PoV. Played around with it a bit in the back of my mind, and what I concluded with was a solution that I'm not sure D&D fans would want, at least if expecting a "tabletop sim".

I'd consider removing the resting system as it stands right now completely, and instead, make it a narrative tool and for pacing, as a DM would. Most experienced DM I know (of the good ones, anyway...), tend to agree that combat encounters should in some shape or form tie in to and drive the narrative forward, whether big or small - Or at least a chance to. Perhaps the bandit carries a letter or item that guides the player into a nearby town to ask around for clues, or perhaps that goblin leader pleads as it draws its last few breaths before death, crying out a name, or whatever. And then either the narrative guides the players back to camp or the tavern through the story - Where any other attempt to have a rest, the player "asks the DM" by hitting the usual Go To Camp button for the DM to determine if they qualify or not. If they don't, the companions would instead have a voice bark (saying a comment as they do sometimes in world, Larian calls these voice barks), saying they're not ready to rest yet, they should go talk to that guy in town while they know for sure he's there - Or whichever other clue is relevant to the next objective unlocking next rest session.

Or something like that. Not fully fleshed out, but the gist is I think D&D in video games will always be limited by not having a live DM, it will play differently because of it no matter what. So some systems may be either superficial or be impossible to make right because of it simply having been designed with a tabletop format in mind, with real human minds improvising and adapting on the spot, without computer software limitations. Obviously, it's too far into the development cycle to rework now, arguably it was even too late when EA released for such a fundamental design idea to have content made around it.

Right now something like Mrfuji said above would probably be the easiest quick fix to appeal to different players 😅

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I've grown accustomed to the camp/rest system in BG3 and yeah I agree with many of the improvements suggested here – but if this is the way things are headed, there are a few simple things that I would really like to see implemented:

1) Calculate the required number of camp supplies to rest based on the number of people (and creatures) at camp, not the arbitrary "40"

2) Include the contents of the Traveller's Chests as selectable when you hit the bedrolls/campfire to choose supplies – hunting around for those chests and transferring food to your inventory first is a chore

3) Make ALL companions 'part of the team' while you're at camp so you can manipulate their inventories, hotbars etc without having to ask them to join/leave the party – you could even have a popup to select your team when you leave camp which might encourage changing things up occasionally (keep your current team selected by default though so there aren't extra steps to leave camp)



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Originally Posted by The Composer
I'd consider removing the resting system as it stands right now completely, and instead, make it a narrative tool and for pacing, as a DM would. [...] Where any other attempt to have a rest, the player "asks the DM" by hitting the usual Go To Camp button for the DM to determine if they qualify or not. If they don't, the companions would instead have a voice bark (saying a comment as they do sometimes in world, Larian calls these voice barks), saying they're not ready to rest yet, they should go talk to that guy in town while they know for sure he's there - Or whichever other clue is relevant to the next objective unlocking next rest session.

Or something like that. Not fully fleshed out, but the gist is I think D&D in video games will always be limited by not having a live DM, it will play differently because of it no matter what. So some systems may be either superficial or be impossible to make right because of it simply having been designed with a tabletop format in mind, with real human minds improvising and adapting on the spot, without computer software limitations.
True, a big problem with BG3 is that there is no real-time DM, and BG3's flexibility in exploration (which is a great thing that should not be removed) prevents Larian from doing much planning ahead. As Jandk even mentioned before, they can't universally limit you to X encounters per long rest because players will do easier or harder quests out of order. At least outside of dungeons where the entrance locks behind you they can't. There is a good solution between the current "no restrictions" and super strict limit of "every X encounters" no matter which imo.

Something I suggested before (and which was kinda widely hated lmao) was that companions show some disapproval if you attempt to long rest too frequently. Lae'zel urgently wants to reach the Creche before she turns into a mind flayer; why would she be perfectly content with the party taking a long rest every hour? This is a compromise, where you are disincentivized to long rest too frequently, but not restricted from doing so. Another suggestion I've heard is that companions gain a level of exhaustion at some point, and until at least one companion gets this condition you're unable to rest because the party isn't tired enough.

But of course, determining the threshold for this disapproval or exhaustion is the big question, as is for every possible long rest system. Do you get a long rest opportunity at specific story-beats? At every X, Larian-determined "important events/locations"? Base it on total hp lost of the party - if so how much? At certain locations on the map? Pros and cons to each.

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Something I suggested before (and which was kinda widely hated lmao) was that companions show some disapproval if you attempt to long rest too frequently. Lae'zel urgently wants to reach the Creche before she turns into a mind flayer; why would she be perfectly content with the party taking a long rest every hour? This is a compromise, where you are disincentivized to long rest too frequently, but not restricted from doing so. Another suggestion I've heard is that companions gain a level of exhaustion at some point, and until at least one companion gets this condition you're unable to rest because the party isn't tired enough.

But of course, determining the threshold for this disapproval or exhaustion is the big question, as is for every possible long rest system. Do you get a long rest opportunity at specific story-beats? At every X, Larian-determined "important events/locations"? Base it on total hp lost of the party - if so how much? At certain locations on the map? Pros and cons to each.

I enjoy this at a glance, not particularly expensive to implement either.

Last edited by The Composer; 20/02/22 11:02 PM.
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I don't believe the answer is in limiting resources. There are plenty of resources, and it doesn't make sense why my Ranger can't hunt down food to get a good night's rest. I shouldn't be forced to collect half-eaten apples.

I think the resting solution should be like it is with Nere. If you contact Nere and neglect to save him, after two long rests he dies.

All of the resting should be like that. Just with different consequences all over the place.

Long rest 15 times? Oops, the ritual is complete and now the grove is sealed.

Forget all this stuff about limiting resources. It's a fight against time and unknown consequences, that's all.

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Originally Posted by JandK
I don't believe the answer is in limiting resources. There are plenty of resources, and it doesn't make sense why my Ranger can't hunt down food to get a good night's rest. I shouldn't be forced to collect half-eaten apples.

I think the resting solution should be like it is with Nere. If you contact Nere and neglect to save him, after two long rests he dies.

All of the resting should be like that. Just with different consequences all over the place.

Long rest 15 times? Oops, the ritual is complete and now the grove is sealed.

Forget all this stuff about limiting resources. It's a fight against time and unknown consequences, that's all.

Lol. My first suggestion for long rest.

MAN did it get shot down hard. The flack I got...

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by The Composer
I'd consider removing the resting system as it stands right now completely, and instead, make it a narrative tool and for pacing, as a DM would. [...] Where any other attempt to have a rest, the player "asks the DM" by hitting the usual Go To Camp button for the DM to determine if they qualify or not. If they don't, the companions would instead have a voice bark (saying a comment as they do sometimes in world, Larian calls these voice barks), saying they're not ready to rest yet, they should go talk to that guy in town while they know for sure he's there - Or whichever other clue is relevant to the next objective unlocking next rest session.

Or something like that. Not fully fleshed out, but the gist is I think D&D in video games will always be limited by not having a live DM, it will play differently because of it no matter what. So some systems may be either superficial or be impossible to make right because of it simply having been designed with a tabletop format in mind, with real human minds improvising and adapting on the spot, without computer software limitations.
True, a big problem with BG3 is that there is no real-time DM, and BG3's flexibility in exploration (which is a great thing that should not be removed) prevents Larian from doing much planning ahead. As Jandk even mentioned before, they can't universally limit you to X encounters per long rest because players will do easier or harder quests out of order. At least outside of dungeons where the entrance locks behind you they can't. There is a good solution between the current "no restrictions" and super strict limit of "every X encounters" no matter which imo.

Something I suggested before (and which was kinda widely hated lmao) was that companions show some disapproval if you attempt to long rest too frequently. Lae'zel urgently wants to reach the Creche before she turns into a mind flayer; why would she be perfectly content with the party taking a long rest every hour? This is a compromise, where you are disincentivized to long rest too frequently, but not restricted from doing so. Another suggestion I've heard is that companions gain a level of exhaustion at some point, and until at least one companion gets this condition you're unable to rest because the party isn't tired enough.

But of course, determining the threshold for this disapproval or exhaustion is the big question, as is for every possible long rest system. Do you get a long rest opportunity at specific story-beats? At every X, Larian-determined "important events/locations"? Base it on total hp lost of the party - if so how much? At certain locations on the map? Pros and cons to each.
I would still use random encounters if you rest too often. Teach the player to not spend all their resources between rests, don't rest unnecessarily and always be ready for trouble. This should probably be only on Core Rules or Hard difficulty, whatever it'll be called. I recognize there are players who don't want to deal with resource management and I'm not suggesting it should be forced on everyone. Slight clash with the design of companions only progressing when you sleep. Maybe they could just progress more frequently.

Exhaustion would be really annoying if you have to go memorize Knock, but the game won't let you. How can you make yourself become exhausted? Only by fighting? What if you're in a puzzle area without fights but need spells?

The disapproval is a great idea but it only has meaning if you are playing single player with companions. I would like to have it anyway because it would make the companions more credible instead of just yapping about urgency without any action even if you do the opposite of what they want.

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Having lost rests interrupted by baddies is almost a staple of D&D. Really hope we get some random encounters in the final release.



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Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Having lost rests interrupted by baddies is almost a staple of D&D. Really hope we get some random encounters in the final release.
Or at the very least having to somehow work your way to a safe place to rest when in a hostile location.

When you're in a dangerous place with monsters crawling about everywhere but always have that convenient button to teleport to complete safety to rest... it's not really a dangerous place at all. It's just a big immersion fail for me.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Having lost rests interrupted by baddies is almost a staple of D&D. Really hope we get some random encounters in the final release.
Or at the very least having to somehow work your way to a safe place to rest when in a hostile location.

When you're in a dangerous place with monsters crawling about everywhere but always have that convenient button to teleport to complete safety to rest... it's not really a dangerous place at all. It's just a big immersion fail for me.

On that note I'm curious to see if they'll implement Leomund's Tiny Hut at all, it becomes redundant with the teleport to camp



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Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Having lost rests interrupted by baddies is almost a staple of D&D. Really hope we get some random encounters in the final release.
Or at the very least having to somehow work your way to a safe place to rest when in a hostile location.

When you're in a dangerous place with monsters crawling about everywhere but always have that convenient button to teleport to complete safety to rest... it's not really a dangerous place at all. It's just a big immersion fail for me.

On that note I'm curious to see if they'll implement Leomund's Tiny Hut at all, it becomes redundant with the teleport to camp
I was really hoping we would finally see flavorful utility spells like these in a CRPG. Tiny Hut and Magnificent Mansion (What is Raphael's House of Hope, actually?). Larian seems to be the right developer to even consider such. I guess if they make longer no-rest zones like the Hag's lair it could still be possible.

But they seem to hesitate to implement a meaningful resting mechanic which would mean you'd actually have to manage your resources. Like D&D is designed.

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Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Originally Posted by 1varangian
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
Having lost rests interrupted by baddies is almost a staple of D&D. Really hope we get some random encounters in the final release.
Or at the very least having to somehow work your way to a safe place to rest when in a hostile location.

When you're in a dangerous place with monsters crawling about everywhere but always have that convenient button to teleport to complete safety to rest... it's not really a dangerous place at all. It's just a big immersion fail for me.

On that note I'm curious to see if they'll implement Leomund's Tiny Hut at all, it becomes redundant with the teleport to camp
I was really hoping we would finally see flavorful utility spells like these in a CRPG. Tiny Hut and Magnificent Mansion (What is Raphael's House of Hope, actually?). Larian seems to be the right developer to even consider such. I guess if they make longer no-rest zones like the Hag's lair it could still be possible.

But they seem to hesitate to implement a meaningful resting mechanic which would mean you'd actually have to manage your resources. Like D&D is designed.

The bottom line is that in order to truly have a solid game with good D&D feel, they need to redo a lot, and at this point I doubt they will. What I mean is that players might be fine without long resting in the beginning but only because they fight intellect devourers that aren't true intellect devourers. They're injured brain dogs that have no resistance and don't use Devour Intellect or Body Thief. If they fought true devourers, they'd need party of 6 and probably a long rest immediately after.

At level 3 or 4, fighting the ettercaps and phase spiders would and should be considered Deadly encounters. In fact, when I assessed every encounter, it was Deadly. Meaning, chances are, you will need a long rest after each one. The entire game's encounters are designed to be one Extremely Deadly encounter after another.

So, though I want a better camp/rest system, what it really requires is a complete overhaul, which frankly I also want. But realistically we're probably not getting. We need redesigned encounters where we fight lower level enemies that we can handle, have about 5-6 encounters of the sort, and then short rest. Have another 5-6 encounters and long rest. Something like that with monsters we were meant to face at lower levels.

So, on the Nautiloid, dredges and manes. On the beach, something more like cultists and thralls and giant rats and crabs and kobolds and snakes and twig blights... In dank Crypt, normal skeletons and not spellcasting scribes... In the grove, goblins are fine but harpies??? That many harpies is insane for low levels.

The point is that we quite honestly need lots of long rests because the game is designed too extreme. We wouldn't even be having this conversation if they had decent fights for low level characters because no one would feel the need to long rest often if the fights were more appropriate.

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Lae'zel urgently wants to reach the Creche before she turns into a mind flayer; why would she be perfectly content with the party taking a long rest every hour?
Problem with this theory is that you dont "rest every hour" ... ever. :-/

Every time you Long Rest the day is ended ...
Since time in game is static rightnow no matter how much real time you spend between Long Rests that is allways and every time 24h from game perspective.

//Edit:
On the other hand she can just complain that the searching for creche in your company is just taking too long ... and both idea and story integrity remain intact.

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 21/02/22 07:43 AM.

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OK. Let me rephrase. They've severely nerfed a lot of the monsters, so you CAN go for some time in the EA without Long Resting. I mean, I've literally gone from the beach to the Grove without a single long rest - and that includes the entire Dank Crypt, the Secret Tunnels and the Harpy Fight.

First playthrough way back in Patch 1 or 2, no way in heck. Nearly died every time against the three intellect devourers - which aren't intellect devourers except in name and appearance only - but I digress. (Sorry, still bugs me to no end that they put monsters in the game and don't make them true to their stats and stuff. THEY AREN'T ACTUALLY INTELLECT DEVOURERS!!!)

Ahem. Anyway. It does make sense that they would just do away with the Long and Short Rest button and instead make it so you could click on bedrolls that you find in the game to initiate a rest, or some other type of in-game item. Click on the bedroll and it asks, "Do you want to End Day?" for bedrolls are pretty specific to Long Rests. You wouldn't use a bedroll, typically, to Short Rest. For Short Rests, chairs, benches, etc. would make more sense. Wherever you find a chair or bench, you could initiate a Short Rest by right clicking on it and selecting Short Rest. Then you simply rest right there at whatever camp or rest area you are at.

Imagine. You exit the Dank Crypt and head to the entranceway of the area where there are benches at that overlook. Shoom! Cutscene showing you taking a break right where you are, and you are eating and drinking some of your Camping Supplies (because Long and Short Rests should both require Camping Supplies).

Short Rest Camping Supply Cost = 1 Camping Supply per Character Level in your party. So, if you have 4 level 4 characters, 16 Camping Supplies to Short Rest.
Long Rest Camping Supply Cost = 2 Camping Supplies per Character Level in your camp. So, if you have 6 level 4 characters, 48 Camping Supplies to Long Rest.

Anyway, if I remember correctly, all this would mean that you could presently, in the game long rest at:

- The Dank Crypt. I believe there were a couple of campsites set up, though I can't remember exactly. Either way, there's an entire dining room with fireplace, you could shut and lock the entrances to the place, etc. It just makes sense that they could allow you to Long Rest there.

- The Grove. I'm pretty dang sure there are quite a few campsite locations at the Grove.

- The Harper Lookout where you find the spider egg. I KNOW there's a campsite there.

- The Bog near the Swamp-Docks. There's a few bedrolls there and the existence of someone's camp. Granted, it's bloody. Someone was attacked there, but it would make for a valid camp location - keeping in mind that a Random Encounter Chance should exist and it should be somewhat high in that particular location since someone and their kid were obviously attacked there just recently.

- Moonhaven (Bogrot). If I recall, I think you find several locations with bedrolls, but regardless, like the Dank Crypt, there are numerous places you could likely set up as a campsite. For example, Blacksmith's basement with chance of Random Encounter being spider related, since it is right on the border of the Whispering Depths. The apothecary basement would be another good spot with chance of Random Encounter being skeleton related, since the Necromancer's Lair is nearby. The windmill could be another one with chance of Goblin/Bugbear/Hobgoblin random encounter. And lastly, if you clear it out, the shack where the bugbear and ogre were having a bit of fun... though why you'd want to sleep there is beyond me.

- Scratch Location. The little grove where you meet Scratch above the owlbear cave would be a good campsite location, though there are no campfires or bedrolls. A character could stop you and make a comment. "This looks like a good place, actually, to make camp. Should we, or do you want to keep going?" Random Encounter Chance is relatively high here and you could encounter an owlbear, if you didn't kill her in her nest (or maybe the papa bear), or gnolls coming at you from across the river, or goblins on patrol, or cultists searching for survivors.

- Whispering Depths. Resting in Eliette's old laboratory area. This would be only IF you didn't alert the spiders that you were there. If you alerted them, and Rested there, high chance of Random Encounter spider related.

- Waukeen's Rest and/or the Zhent Hideout.

- The Toll House.

- The Goblin Camp (as long as they're not hostile to you).

- The Shattered Sanctum in the chamber where you free Halsin or in Gut's Bedroom after you've cleared it. Maybe a high chance of goblins finding you if you haven't cleared out the entire place of enemies and you've killed Gut and/or her guardian.

- Spaw's Grotto.

- The Selunite Outpost

- The Arcane Tower.

- Philomeen's area in Grymforge

- Grymforge itself, because no one's over there, so very low chance of discovery.

I mean, if you provided all these places as camp locations, you'd never have to really go back far to the nearest camp. They're naturally all over the game map.

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