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With regards to lines and the consequences of crossing/not crossing them, I'll say that in terms of creating fiction, there's no actual danger when it comes to crossing lines. My personal stance is that the only time crossing into taboo or unsavory topics in fiction is wrong is if the creator is either actively promoting something that's harmful in the real world, or if the creator is crossing lines just for the sake of it, and even then those are two different kinds of wrong. The first is actually morally wrong on some level. Like if the hero of a story is actively being lauded for abusing animals and was uncritically framed as being right and noble for doing so. The second is wrong in the sense that it's probably going to make for a bad product, since if a creator is going to just throw in distateful, off-putting stuff simply because they can, that's a sign of a lack of sophistication and consideration. While I find the passion people have for being able to kill everything in a game to be frankly baffling, I don't think being able to kill both goblin and tiefling kids really falls into either of the two categories. You aren't actively being celebrated for killing the kids specifically, and for all my issues with Larian storytelling, this game doesn't tend to revelin being crude and distasteful just for the sake of it.

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OK. Totally in Camp KILL-ALL-TIEFLING-CHILDREN now. It's unavoidable, to be honest. You put children in the game, and you're going to have to make them killable. You can't have the invincible tiefling children missiles you do now.

So, here's what led me to this:

I am able to use Mirkon, the boy tiefling down by the river with the harpies, as an Invincible throwing projectile. I throw him, he dies. He is immediately resurrected all on his own. I throw him again. He dies. He is immediately resurrected, free of charge. In fact, the harpies killed him and I resurrected him by throwing him at a harpy, dealing damage to him, and bringing him back to life while damaging the harpy. Because I, the player, threw his carcass, he was made into a GOD!!!

Resurrection by throwing! Now that's a new one.

Sorry, but you can't have invincible characters in a game like this. If I can use any character as a projectile to deal damage, and they can take damage, they need to be able to be killed.

And, on top of that, if they can kill me, I should be able to kill them. So, yeah, I'm in full agreement. DEATH TO THE TIEFLING CHILDREN!!!

Geez! That sounds mass-murderer-y/psychopathic serial killer-y!

Gah! What am I becoming? THE MADNESS!!!

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
In fact, the harpies killed him and I resurrected him by throwing him at a harpy, dealing damage to him, and bringing him back to life while damaging the harpy.
This sounds like some serious cardiopulmonary resuscitation. laugh

Also ... welcome to the club, would you like to have a milk in calyx shaped like a skull?

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 21/02/22 06:05 PM.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Sorry, but you can't have invincible characters in a game like this. If I can use any character as a projectile to deal damage, and they can take damage, they need to be able to be killed.
I think this might be a bug caused by throwing, because I've had, on the rare occasion, the harpies attack and kill Mirkon. Is it possible they gave him protection from the player but not from the harpies? So the game bugs out when the player uses him as a weapon.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
OK. Totally in Camp KILL-ALL-TIEFLING-CHILDREN now. It's unavoidable, to be honest. You put children in the game, and you're going to have to make them killable. You can't have the invincible tiefling children missiles you do now.

So, here's what led me to this:

I am able to use Mirkon, the boy tiefling down by the river with the harpies, as an Invincible throwing projectile. I throw him, he dies. He is immediately resurrected all on his own. I throw him again. He dies. He is immediately resurrected, free of charge. In fact, the harpies killed him and I resurrected him by throwing him at a harpy, dealing damage to him, and bringing him back to life while damaging the harpy. Because I, the player, threw his carcass, he was made into a GOD!!!

Resurrection by throwing! Now that's a new one.

Sorry, but you can't have invincible characters in a game like this. If I can use any character as a projectile to deal damage, and they can take damage, they need to be able to be killed.

And, on top of that, if they can kill me, I should be able to kill them. So, yeah, I'm in full agreement. DEATH TO THE TIEFLING CHILDREN!!!

Geez! That sounds mass-murderer-y/psychopathic serial killer-y!

Gah! What am I becoming? THE MADNESS!!!

Invincible NPCs are like Atlas; like Atlas, they too hold up the world.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I am able to use Mirkon, the boy tiefling down by the river with the harpies, as an Invincible throwing projectile. I throw him, he dies. He is immediately resurrected all on his own. I throw him again. He dies. He is immediately resurrected, free of charge. In fact, the harpies killed him and I resurrected him by throwing him at a harpy, dealing damage to him, and bringing him back to life while damaging the harpy. Because I, the player, threw his carcass, he was made into a GOD!!!

This looks like a really fun PVP battle using children as weapons. Bet it would go viral on youtube.

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Originally Posted by Dustmen
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I am able to use Mirkon, the boy tiefling down by the river with the harpies, as an Invincible throwing projectile. I throw him, he dies. He is immediately resurrected all on his own. I throw him again. He dies. He is immediately resurrected, free of charge. In fact, the harpies killed him and I resurrected him by throwing him at a harpy, dealing damage to him, and bringing him back to life while damaging the harpy. Because I, the player, threw his carcass, he was made into a GOD!!!

This looks like a really fun PVP battle using children as weapons. Bet it would go viral on youtube.

And the memes continue.

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Originally Posted by Dustmen
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I am able to use Mirkon, the boy tiefling down by the river with the harpies, as an Invincible throwing projectile. I throw him, he dies. He is immediately resurrected all on his own. I throw him again. He dies. He is immediately resurrected, free of charge. In fact, the harpies killed him and I resurrected him by throwing him at a harpy, dealing damage to him, and bringing him back to life while damaging the harpy. Because I, the player, threw his carcass, he was made into a GOD!!!

This looks like a really fun PVP battle using children as weapons. Bet it would go viral on youtube.
Be Careful What you wish for, someone might actually do it...




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Lol. And there you go. I wonder if that will work after the goblin slaughter. Just start picking up tiefling children and throwing them around. See if it resurrects them

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
OK. Totally in Camp KILL-ALL-TIEFLING-CHILDREN now. It's unavoidable, to be honest. You put children in the game, and you're going to have to make them killable. You can't have the invincible tiefling children missiles you do now.

So, here's what led me to this:

I am able to use Mirkon, the boy tiefling down by the river with the harpies, as an Invincible throwing projectile. I throw him, he dies. He is immediately resurrected all on his own. I throw him again. He dies. He is immediately resurrected, free of charge. In fact, the harpies killed him and I resurrected him by throwing him at a harpy, dealing damage to him, and bringing him back to life while damaging the harpy. Because I, the player, threw his carcass, he was made into a GOD!!!

Resurrection by throwing! Now that's a new one.

Sorry, but you can't have invincible characters in a game like this. If I can use any character as a projectile to deal damage, and they can take damage, they need to be able to be killed.

And, on top of that, if they can kill me, I should be able to kill them. So, yeah, I'm in full agreement. DEATH TO THE TIEFLING CHILDREN!!!

Geez! That sounds mass-murderer-y/psychopathic serial killer-y!

Gah! What am I becoming? THE MADNESS!!!

Haha! That's adorable! You think throwing Mirkon is the overpowered way to use him!
Bear witness to his transcendence!

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Nah, you're all failing to really capitalize on the idea. You need to go into the cave with the tiefling children and have your party battle it out using the children as weapons. Just think of the joy it would bring people to see Astarion impaled on the horns of a tiefling child.

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And the memes, they go on and on and on and ooooon!

Having a real hard time taking what should be a serious RPG - well, serious.

I mean, shouldn't this be a serious RPG? We're not playing like Kingdom Hearts, are we?

Oh no! I slammed Kingdom Hearts! Someone's coming for me.

Never could take that game seriously. Goofy? Micky? Come on!

I'd expect this kind of slapstick comedy from a game like that; not from Baldur's Gate 3.

Last edited by GM4Him; 24/02/22 07:00 PM.
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
what should be a serious RPG
Just wondering ... where did you even get this?


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It's Baldur's Gate 3. The third in a series of serious RPG games. Most D&D RPG's are serious.

Neverwinter Nights - Wailing Death plague slaughtering countless lives and people wailing in the streets as their loved ones wither away before their eyes. Quite serious.

Icewind Dale - Something is plaguing the people in the northern lands. Folks are dying. Something sinister is happening there. Do something before everyone dies.

Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, the Prequels - You are a
God of Murder's child who is fighting against your murderous blood. Unfortunately, the only way you can even try to overcome your heritage is to murder a bunch of people. You have to go around fighting and killing countless enemies just to survive, and all the while you are fighting to NOT become your father, THE GOD OF MURDER. Pretty dark and serious stuff. (Or you're accepting your heritage and thus becoming a GOD OF MURDER yourself. Either way, pretty dang serious and dark.)

The point is, BG3 SHOULD be a serious RPG. Why? Because it's the third installment in an entire string of serious RPGs.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
The point is, BG3 SHOULD be a serious RPG. Why? Because it's the third installment in an entire string of serious RPGs.
You are comparing story to mechanics. I agree that the immortal child missile bug should be patched, but if you want to equate mechanics with storytelling, original BG1/2 are worse. How is killing handled in those games? Your alignment won't budge no matter the amount of killing innocents you commit. Instead you get a drop in "reputation", same reputation that can be easily brought up by donating at temples. So you can be a lawful good mass murderer widely celebrated as hero. Does this sound serious to you? And it's not even a bug, it's intended by the devs. The funniest part is even your Bhaalspawn powers are dependent on how good your PR reputation is.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Neverwinter Nights - Wailing Death plague slaughtering countless lives and people wailing in the streets as their loved ones wither away before their eyes.
Yep, and they do it while your companion Linu tells you her story full of slap-stick moments. And they keep on with it, while you steal a caricature for Moon Mask madam and while you blackmail a Tyr priest for collaborating with the brothel. And even while you talk to a cultist who pretends to be a priest of Helm and all he can tell you about Helm is "ugh... eh... well... you know... he's good god and... yeah! he will help us all!"
Neverwinter Nights was sooooo serious. Don't let me to get even started on how serious was the visual and sound design of the game.

PS: That game was freaking full with dark humor, sarcasm and irony.

Last edited by Zellin; 24/02/22 08:55 PM.
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Baldur's Gate 1 and 2, the Prequels - You are a
God of Murder's child who is fighting against your murderous blood. Unfortunately, the only way you can even try to overcome your heritage is to murder a bunch of people. You have to go around fighting and killing countless enemies just to survive, and all the while you are fighting to NOT become your father, THE GOD OF MURDER. Pretty dark and serious stuff. (Or you're accepting your heritage and thus becoming a GOD OF MURDER yourself. Either way, pretty dang serious and dark.)

The point is, BG3 SHOULD be a serious RPG. Why? Because it's the third installment in an entire string of serious RPGs.

Ooh. I got a shiver up my spine when you referred to those classics as "Prequels" frown. Anyhow, there is the implication that...

Bhaal raped at least some people/beings in order to spread his seed. Hey, look, we've got murder and rape.

Originally Posted by Zellin
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Neverwinter Nights - Wailing Death plague slaughtering countless lives and people wailing in the streets as their loved ones wither away before their eyes.
Yep, and they do it while your companion Linu tells you her story full of slap-stick moments. And they keep on with it, while you steal a caricature for Moon Mask madam and while you blackmail a Tyr priest for collaborating with the brothel. And even while you talk to a cultist who pretends to be a priest of Helm and all he can tell you about Helm is "ugh... eh... well... you know... he's good god and... yeah! he will help us all!"
Neverwinter Nights was sooooo serious. Don't let me to get even started on how serious was the visual and sound design of the game.

PS: That game was freaking full with dark humor, sarcasm and irony.

Uh, the core themes of that game are serious; the sidequests/optional characters may feature humor, sure, but they're not the main focus. The plague, the dubious execution of you-know-who (more like a state-sanctioned murder to appease a mob), a certain character falling from grace and committing atrocities, et cetera...yeah, Neverwinter Nights is a primarily mature story.

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Wow! They missed the entire point of what I was saying.

There's a big difference between Linu telling you stupid stories amidst a tragic background. Humor in storytelling helps keep the story from becoming so dark no one is having fun. Minsc and Boo stand ready helps keep levity and keeps players from getting depressed because all they're doing in the game is butchering countless creatures and people. Banter makes things fun and brightens the atmosphere.

I'm talking about gameplay mechanics that can be used to do absolutely absurd, ridiculous things. Picking up tieflings and using them as immortal missiles is only one of these. Let's talk, AGAIN, about shoving 300+ feet, jumping 30+ feet without magic assistance over a 2+ meter tall monster like a minotaur or ogre, yeeting a cat who knows how far across a massive chasm into a phase spider infested lair and then having him stealth and even short rest...

Things so unbelievable you'd find them maybe in a kids or teenagers' comic book or TV show. I don't want BG3 to be some silly Saturday Morning Cartoon version of D&D.

Ever watch the old D&D Saturday Morning Cartoon? Compare that to Lord of the Rings Movies. That's the difference here. The old cartoon still had monsters and magic and even some serious stuff happening, but it was so goofy and corny with so many unbelievable things happening that you just cringe if you ever watch it and you aren't a kid. You don't take the setting or the story or anything seriously because it's just so ridiculous.

That's what BG3 is turning into right now. The more I'm playing it, the less serious I can take it, and all I ever get as an explanation is, "Well, that's how Larian wants to develop the game. They want it to be made for multiplayer so players can troll one another with things like throwing things at one another from 100 feet away or shoving one another into lava pits for 1-Hit KOs or picking pockets from players while they are in dialogue, or seeing what other game mechanics they can break just because it's dumb stupid fun."

The game is DEgressing in a lot of ways, and throwing tiefling children around like immortal missiles is just the most recent example.

The other games were not dumb stupid fun where people went around doing such dumb stuff. They were adventures, and while they had some stupid elements to them and corny lines and even breaking the 4th wall, they were still serious adventures. And yes, some mechanics were also stupid, like a critical hit causing a monster to explode into blood and guts in Neverwinter Nights. But they were limited and didn't overpower the game. They weren't like Dumb and Dumber plays D&D beating each other up with salamis and thinking its fun.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
'm talking about gameplay mechanics that can be used to do absolutely absurd, ridiculous things. Picking up tieflings and using them as immortal missiles is only one of these. Let's talk, AGAIN, about shoving 300+ feet, jumping 30+ feet without magic assistance over a 2+ meter tall monster like a minotaur or ogre, yeeting a cat who knows how far across a massive chasm into a phase spider infested lair and then having him stealth and even short rest...
You mean like Algernon's cloak, the limitless ranged charm that let you create armies of puppets in BG1? You can finish the game just using that item alone. I've been playing BG1 & 2 on and off for years, and it's full of silly tricks. It's one of the things I find charming about the games. Tbh I have the impression that you simply don't know the mechanics (which are full of exploits) of the original games all that well.

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You're missing the point.

Let me put it like this. If you play a Mario game, you expect to be able to pick up enemies throw them twirl them around jump on their heads and other ridiculous comical antics. The bulk of the game has these antics. It's not serious. It has a story, there's character interaction, and so forth, but you wouldn't call it a serious RPG even if you're playing paper Mario. The game is designed to have lots of ridiculous mechanics that are funny and fun and comical and not serious.

The original BG games were not designed to be overpoweringly comical. Yes, there were a few mechanics and items in the game that you could get that may have been able to be used as gimmicks. Yes, there were some things that were just broken and if you discovered those things you could have used them to beat the crap out of serious enemies.

The question was posed to me, why do I think that this game should be serious? What made me think that it is supposed to be a serious RPG? My answer is the tone and style of the original games was serious. It was not a Mario style game. You didn't have the ability to shove enemies off buildings 30 ft from the edge, or any of the other ridiculous things that I've mentioned a thousand times.

The developers laugh and think it's clever strategy to be able to do these ridiculous things in the game as if they are not taking it seriously at all. It's like they are purposely developing the game to be a Mario style game where you are meant to have the ability to do the absolutely ridiculous absurd things that you can currently do in the game just because it's slapstick humor.

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