Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Suggestions & Feedback SHOOOOOOOVE

JandK.

It's kinda like this. When you say things like we're being over the top and comical, it's pretty much no different than if I said you're being utterly illogical and stupid.

I'm also saying this sincerely. I'm not trying to be a jerk. In all honesty, I just think you and Ragnarok are more similar, and that I don't see eye to eye with you two. I have a really hard time with your logic. I can't understand why you can't see just how broken certain things are. From my perspective, the game mechanics for shove and throw are SO broken that I think it's utterly idiotic that they would even think that it's appropriate for the game.

So here's what I'm saying, "When you say we're being ridiculous, over the top and exaggerated or whatever," I could retaliate just as sincerely by saying, "You're an illogical crazy person who, for some reason, thinks a person should be able to shove another person 30 feet through the air, off a cliff and another 300+ feet into Torchstalks. I'm also not exaggerating, by the way. It literally happens MULTIPLE TIMES.

Seriously, I'm not actually saying any of this with veiled insults. Just trying to explain how it comes across. In truth, I think you're just a very passionate person about BG3 who really doesn't want to see it changed. You love it just the way it is. I'm glad. I also love the game, but unlike you, especially because I'm a D&D DM, I can see how when rules about things like shove are unbalanced, it actually messes up a TON of other rules and mechanics, throwing off the entire game.

Besides that, I've had too many incidences in the game where enemies have shoved me frustratingly off ledges, and it's gotten to the point that it's happening so much I'm REALLY upset by it. It's hard to want to keep playing when I'm playing all strategically, and some idiot baby goblin runs up and shoves me a ridiculous distance off a cliff. Too many times. It ruins the game for me. I hate reloading just because a mechanic is so op.

I think shove is an awesome mechanic, but is used too freely. Making it a standard action solves that issue easily. Instead of seeing shove at least twice a round, I see it a couple times a combat now. I think most importantly, archers can't shove you away and then run off and get their standard attack. That's been the most unbalanced effects of shove I've noticed.

I do find most of this criticism to be ridiculous hyperbole. Yeah, it sucks to get shoved, but, you know, don't put yourself in that position? Like, stay away from precarious, narrow ledges in a fight? This isn't rocket science, and since you can move and then attack and then move again it shouldn't be that difficult to end your turn with your back to a wall. I don't find that shoving ends most of my fights. Certainly not shoving by the enemies! Occasionally it will be useful to shove a couple of enemies, but the only way shoving is your primary tactic is if you are using other tactics to set up situations where you can shove people. That's a perfectly reasonable approach to combat! You could just as easily use that energy to set up situations where you could snipe your enemies or fireball them. You're SUPPOSED to do that!

Edit: Not sure how this forum works, but this wasn't meant to be a reply to a specific person, this was meant as a reply to the general thread. I just clicked the wrong button.

It is more so that this section of the forums is for feedback. People come here to make threads expressing some feedback they have, and try in their best way to explain why they think that. So if the feedback is something like "Hey I think this or that with Shove is bad, it is an action in 5e, but bonus action in BG3, this messes with the combat action economy." or something like that, the discussion technically ends there - As far as I'm concerned, once feedback is received by those meant to hear it (Larian in this case) any reply made afterward is solely for us gamers to hang out and discuss something we're passionate about. It's feedback to be presented from a player to developer, not from a player for others to gatekeep because their opinion differs. Now, since it's a forum (and a rather outdated one at that), discussion is inevitable, but just fencing over binary "I like it, you don't like it, but I'm right in liking it and you're wrong in not liking it" is a pointless conversation to be had. Particularly when the mannerisms and language become extravagant and exaggerated, promoting drama or fighting. Sometimes a presented topic of feedback is improved and iterated upon through discussion, which makes it worth keeping the conversation going. Without that potential, there'd be no reason not to just close the threads right away, deny any form of replies as it's then just feedback for lurkers to read and potentially be influenced by. That's usually where I come in moaning and being all mean, when I believe people are being an obstruction to iterative discussion or idea sharing.

Cantila wrote a reply earlier, that politely laid out why they think shove is fine as it is, without belittling or undermining other peoples differing opinions. There's learning to be had from this, not just by you but several posters in the thread.

I sent my reply to this through a private report.

I've read it, and hence 'not just by you but several posters in the thread'.

Again, it's not about positioning when they can push you so far. I had Lae'zel practically in the middle of the platform. Mind Master whatever came running up and shoves her into lava - from the middle of the platform.

It's not exaggerating. Just because it hasn't happened to you as much, doesn't mean I'm exaggerating. It happens frequently enough that I'm fighting for the change.

Same here.
One example among many is that as soon as the fight against Nev-something (the drow oppressing the gnomes) started, one Duergar winning the initiative lottery came rushing to Gale (which was IN THE MIDDLE of that platform where you use the explosive to remove rubbles and YEEEEEEEEEEETED my titular mage into the lava without even making it look like genuine effort.

But there are plenty of other fights all across the EA where you have to consider basically HALF of the "usable arena" a danger zone when it comes to be catapulted in a galaxy, far far away.

And yes, before anyone comes "to the rescue", you can manage. I managed. I won all these fights after all in the end, I'm not crying because it's hard, I'm not asking for better strategies to win.
It doesn't change that the feature AFFECTS severely the viability of certain playstyles.

Yeah, my characters were shoved into the lava more than once from a ridiculous distance. It's especially frustrating with Lae'zel, a strength 18 fighter, whose armor weights more than your average goblin or duergar. You can't tell me , that a goblin ( not even strength based, it was one of the archer) can shove her through half of the Blighted Village.

Strength only helps resist Shove completely.

If the distance is calculated by weight, it should factor in equipment weight. That would actually be a GREAT way to make heavy armor tanks feel tanky.

I do think the discussion has been productive. Many ideas on the what the problem is to be solved and many constructive ideas on how to solve it without eliminating it. It truly seems solvable without eliminating it.

Joe

In my case, I would change "as much" to "at all." It hasn't happened to me at all. I've had characters shoved, of course, but never to their death.

And I think a big part of that is because I pay so much attention to positioning.

Personally, I *like* the idea that my character can potentially be shoved off a ledge or into lava. It makes the map interesting for me, strategically, and I appreciate the chance of failure.

One of the best times I had playing the game was when my character got too close to a nautiloid tank, and an imp shot the tank, exploding it. That was great! You see, it utilized the environment and actually challenged me. I loved it. Up until then, I had always walked all over the imps.

Suddenly, I had a challenge. It made me pay more attention to my surroundings.

In fact, having this stuff in the game is so fun for me that I'm fighting for it to stay the same. And sure, I suppose it irks me somewhat to know that folks are lobbying for change because they had a bad experience with Gale or Lae'zel. It's basically ruining the game for me instead of factoring that tactic into their play style.

It's like if a few players didn't like magic spells in the game because they kept getting hit by magic spells. So they started pushing back against magic in the game, and meanwhile, I'm over here like wth? I like magic spells. I know it's not realistic. I know magic spells can be situationally overpowering, and I know my characters can fall to magic spells. But I still like them. They make the game more fun for me.

Now, I know what you're going to say. You're probably thinking to yourself, "Positioning is only so helpful when they can shove so far!"

Well, I disagree. All I can say is that, for me, positioning works. I fully believe you can make your character less attractive to shove attempts. My source for that belief is the well over a thousand hours I've put into this game.

Well, no one asked to "eliminate it" to begin with, just to tone it down and make it behave as it's supposed to.

EDIT; Incidentally, I also have my own personal gripe with the visual presentation of it (see: https://forums.larian.com/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Main=97875&Number=776154#Post776154 ), because "balance" and "sound mechanics" aside it just looks freaking stupid and I don't give a rat ass if some people are easily amused by its astonishing comedic value, but that's comparatively a minor thing.

I don't think anyone can be shoved halfway through the Blighted Village. I'd love to see the footage of that.

Also, just a thought, but maybe it's currently easier to shove Lae'zel because, as a githyanki, she weighs considerably less than others. Skin and bones, those gith. They're much easier to throw because of their weight, aren't they?

I find it implausible that somebody is pushing Gale from the "middle" of the room where you fight Nere into lava. That would be over by the blacksmith tent. It would at least one turn to run to the lava from that spot. No enemy has shown the ability to push my characters more than 30 feet over a flat surface. This kind of hyperbole is not helpful.

What made me change it to a standard action was actually a combat in that same room. I cast spike growth and then kept missing with my attacks but succeeding at shoving the duerger back onto the spikes. Then they would waddle back up to my PCs, taking damage from the spikes twice, to make a basic attack before I would shove them back again. It was very satisfying to kill them with spikes like that, but a bit silly and I did feel like there should be some impetus to try out different strategies.

I do feel like a lot of complaints about shove seem to boil down to, "I have to pay a lot more attention to my surroundings than I do in PnP, and I don't wanna."

I don't make a habit of recording my gameplay just so I have proof for people, who like to question other people with different opinions and experiences than themselves.
Just know, that this was, what happened.
And even If Lae'zel weights less ( probably not less than a goblin) she has armor and weapons that weight a ton and because of her strength, I give her everything else heavy to carry.

Well, that's just your problem, and not one I care about.

Yeah, obnoxious blind denial saves lives left and right, on the other hand.

+1

We seem to have very quickly reached a point where the question of whether or not shove is wildly overpowered hinges on experiences I have not had that seem implausible based on experiences I have had. If anybody does have video of their PC getting shoved 30+ feet, that seems like a problem. You probably shouldn't be able to push people more than 5 feet over flat ground. That has been my experience. When you are near a ledge, the game seems to give you a little extra boost so that you will go over the ledge, but I have not seen this happen from the middle of a platform as wide as the one where you fight Nere.

But I am having kind of a hard time just accepting this as an assertion. Generally speaking, I am skeptical of arguments that take the form of "This one time this really crazy thing happened, and you just have to take my word for it, and also you're a dick if you don't believe it, but we should definitely take action based on it."

I believe i have just few days back seen someone on stream mentioning that it is interesting, that our inventories dont add up to our weight ...

If your Githyanki weights 46kg ... and you give her another 100kg ... game still counts her as 46kg.

"i PAy ATtENTIoON TO MY SurRouNdings, BTW".