Larian Banner: Baldur's Gate Patch 9
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 23 of 32 1 2 21 22 23 24 25 31 32
Joined: Mar 2021
S
member
Offline
member
S
Joined: Mar 2021
I wonder how difficult it would be to implement the campground as a location on the current map. It would need to be right near the beginning and not easy to miss of course. I'm thinking make it a little island with a waypoint and a drawbridge or something that can be lifted at night when it's time to sleep. When you discover it, the usual dialogue would play, "This looks like a good place to set up camp." At least that would make sense from a narrative standpoint as to why you always come back to the same location for camp and how people know how to find you there. It would be great if in the morning you woke up there and then could just seamlessly walk right across the bridge out into the world.

I also still think limiting fast travel to only be from waypoint to waypoint would help limit the amount of long rest abuse, but maybe that's just me.

Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
Here's how I think they could implement the current mini-camps into the game:

You're on the beach. You're exploring. MOST people are going to find the Waypoint right outside the crypt entrance.

Now, in my fan fic, I made the main camp near the Dank Crypt, just to the east. Follow a small path hidden by bushes around the east corner of the building and you will come to the campsite. Made the most sense to me. However, I've looked a thousand times on the map from various angles. There's nothing but sheer cliffs there.

Although I think it would be awesome if they actually put the original camp right there, as I put in my fan fic, the easiest implementation of the original camp is, unfortunately, to make it a place not actually on the map that you teleport to via the Netherese Rune right there on the beach. It's some place nearby, but it's cut off on all sides. There's no real way to get there except by boat or by scaling the sheer rock walls.

BUT, if they're going to do that, they need to have a nice little cutscene. Instead of just, "This place looks as good as any," line, they need something more like:

You step up to the Rune and touch it. The symbol reacts to you for some reason. You have no idea why. Zap! Suddenly, you find yourself in that small ruined partial building across the log within the original camp. Looking around, there's another rune there against one of the walls. It just ported you to the campsite. Then you explore around and say, "Looks like there's no other way to approach this area except by water or by scaling those walls. Seems pretty safe. Maybe we could use this as a safe campsite."

Then, at least, there is a solid, immersive explanation as to why you can't find it on the map and why it is SO safe.

But then, no one should be able to find you there. Only those who are in your party can go there. Why? Because you are special... or maybe because you have the artifact... or whatever.

Either way, the original camp could be explained like this, but the celebration should be done at the grove, then. Not at the main camp. Grove makes more sense anyway.

As for all the other mini-camps, a door or doorway or something in different places could be added to the game simply by deleting a section of a wall and adding a doorway there. Then, to access the mini-camp, you walk up and trigger the doorway. Boom. You enter the mini-camp.

So, Dank Crypt? Put a new doorway in the hall between the two chambers. Doorway leads to the mini-camp they made.

Owlbear cave? Put some sort of extra cave-looking opening somewhere near the Selune Shrine. Boom, takes you to the owlbear mini-camp.

Stuff like that could be done for just about EVERY mini-camp they made so players feel like they are actually going to a real place in the game world without having to totally chuck all the mini-camps they worked so hard on.

And again, I think it'd be fun to unlock them. See how many you can actually find in the game. Then make each one unique and decoratable. Take stuff from one camp and put it in another that you like more. Whatever. Would add a bit of personal customization for those who like such things.

Joined: Mar 2021
S
member
Offline
member
S
Joined: Mar 2021
I like that idea for the mini-camps!

Joined: Nov 2020
O
OcO Offline
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
O
Joined: Nov 2020
If you are going to use set locations on the map for campsites, why not just make warp stones = campsites?
Clicking on a warp stone would give the option of travel to a different known warp stone, or rest for the day. Then instead of taking the time to make a bunch of different locales for all of the scripted camp companion scenes, they can use the warp stone as the background in each dialogue scene and it would apply wherever one may be.

Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
Originally Posted by OcO
If you are going to use set locations on the map for campsites, why not just make warp stones = campsites?
Clicking on a warp stone would give the option of travel to a different known warp stone, or rest for the day. Then instead of taking the time to make a bunch of different locales for all of the scripted camp companion scenes, they can use the warp stone as the background in each dialogue scene and it would apply wherever one may be.

They've already made these mini-camps. I was just trying to give them an idea on how they could take what they've already done and put it into the game with little disruption to their current game map.

A lot of us have a problem with camps that are just not anywhere. They're nebulous. You click long rest in the Underdark and teleport to a magical campsite that looks cool but where is it located? There's no location at all. It's just some pocket realm that you, for some reason, go to that's totally safe. And yet, the tieflings can meet you there for a party, and Volo, and Withers, and even the dog Scratch. They can all somehow magically get there and even know where it is.

Very weird and unimmersive.

Having some sort of explanation would be nice. Rune takes you to a real location somewhere in the area and no one else can get there. Other mini-camps can be easily incorporated into map locations as I mentioned. Just trying to gain some semblance of realism in this very strange wonderland called BG3 EA.

Joined: Nov 2020
O
OcO Offline
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
O
Joined: Nov 2020
I got what you are saying, that's why I said use the warp stones. They are already in place and scattered abundantly around. So long as you are not in combat or within a set range of hostiles just camp right there at the wrap stone, no warping to pocket dimensions required.

However now that I'm thinking about this and other "set location" ideas. I'm not sure they would work as well as we are thinking. How do you return to you camp for some supplies you forgot? Does every set location campsite have a storage chest and all are linked?

Honestly I'm not a fan of the current implementation, but I can see a few issues with other suggestions as well, so I'm not really sure how I'd change it. Personally I'd keep what we have basically, but make the camp an actual world location(unable to be missed after waking on the beach) with a warp stone and require warping back to the camp to rest from another warp stone. No immersion breakage here...except for maybe the warp stones themselves. hehe

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
I like the idea with runes in camp ... suggested the same some time ago. smile

I font quite like the idea that the first rune should coveniently transport you to random location that again juat coveniently become your camp ...
Those runes are controlled purposely by user and he must know his final destination ... at least that was used as excuse ... sory explanation for us being unable to use any rune until we discover it. :-/

But i believe there is potential ...
We could go around the cliff that falls down behind us and ruin the path ... or go through cave woth simmilar result ... there can be damaged bridge and water can take down the rest after we get on the other side ... something like that.

The only problem is that border of our camp from one side is just small river that wpuld be crossed by single step and then there is regular forest ... so, no protection at all. laugh


If my comments bother you, there is nothing easier than telling me to stop.
I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
I would honestly prefer a more immersive camp experience and do away with the mini-camps altogether. I think they look cool, but they're not necessary, and the fact that they have no placement on any map is just totally weird to me.

Here's what BG3 seems to me: A totally obscure game with a lot of things that just don't make sense.

On the one hand, I see people's points when they say that the game map is not meant to be meter for meter all the way through. You're suppose to imagine that the whole map is actually not to scale and distances are supposed to be more stretched out. In other words, the harpy nest isn't ACTUALLY right around the corner just outside the grove. It's actually like miles away. The map is not supposed to be actual distances.

Buuuuut... if I get into a fight with the harpies, little Mikron can literally dash his heart out all the way to the grove for safety, and you can literally fight the harpies all the way up the cliffs to the grove entrance.

Likewise, if I shove the bugbear on top of the cliff by Nadira the tiefling astronomer, I can send him flying approximately 60 feet off the edge and all the way down to Orm the bear who's fishing by the river.

Sooooo... makes no sense that it ISN'T foot for foot, meter for meter.

The camps are the exact same thing. It is clear based on dialogue and such that the camps are somewhere nearby on the map, but you can LITERALLY see everything. There is no camp east of Dank Crypt if you pan your camera out over the river. It's also not on the other side of the nautiloid near where you meet Astarion, though visually it looks like it belongs somewhere maybe over there closer to the bog. Likewise, in the Dank Crypt, there are no literal doors or stairs or anything leading into the mini-camp. You can literally explore everything in the Dank Crypt except beyond the sarcophagus chamber where you find the Book of Dead Gods, and that looks just like a cave system.

So it's weird because all you can think is, "What the heck? Why? Why did you make these weird mini-camps that are just nebulous pocket realms that exist nowhere? As pointed out, there are literally campsites and fireplaces and observable resting areas all over the place.

If it was me, I'd have made it where you can use all of the following places on the current map:

1. Beach near fishing piers - Short Rest Area (you can sit and enjoy the fish and recover, if needed, after fighting the intellect devourers should you go back that way)
2. Other side of nautiloid near boat pier there where you find crates and barrels - Short Rest Area (same as first spot)
3. Harper Cove where you find the Harper Map and such - Short Rest Area
4. Outside the upper Dank Crypt Ruins entranceway where there are benches at the overlook - Short Rest Area
5. Inside upper level of the Crypt after fighting Mari and Barton and their mercenaries - Long Rest area (because there's plenty of food and a fireplace and you can lock doors and everything) Finally, your first long rest area. Talk about preventing long rest spam up until this point. It would be your first real long rest since you started on the beach. It also makes sense that you wouldn't long rest until you'd made at least this much of a significant progress on your adventure. It's a decent amount of progress before your first End Day. Could you get stuck and unable to make it this far? Yes. Is that possible in the present game? Yes, actually. Make a wrong roll with the mind flayer and wind up dead. Reload. Battle goes wrong with Mari and Barton and company. Reload. There's not much of a difference.
6. The Grove, naturally - Long or Short Rest Area. Perfect place for your MAIN CAMP. It's the hub where you can buy and sell things and it's close enough to return to at any point especially with Fast Travel. This would be a place where you COULD spam Long Rest, but then, that would be no different from inns in other RPG's including the previous BG games. Return to the inn and long rest any time you want. Similarly, return to the Grove and long rest any time you want.
7. Harper Lookout - Short or Long Rest
8. Owlbear Cave- Short or Long Rest
9. Moonhaven Apothecary Cellar - Short or Long Rest
10. Moonhaven Blacksmith's Forge - Short or Long Rest
11. Bog Campsite - Short or Long Rest (but Long Rest provides potential Random Encounter chance; it's dangerous)
12. Ethel's House after the fight with the redcaps - Short Rest
13. Inside Ethel's Lair after you fight the Four Masks - Short Rest on the path on your way to her lair
14. Inside Ethel's Lair beyond the secret door entrance portal to the Underdark - Long Rest since it's remote, obscure, and probably not the first place Ethel would expect you to go. That said, if you Long Rest during the event, SOMEthing should happen like Ethel is totally surprised you're actually still in her lair. She thought you changed your mind and took off because you never showed up. Maybe you even catch her a bit unprepared. Or maybe Mayrina's already given birth and is dead. Something happens because you Long Rested instead of pushing forward to fight her right away.
15. Ethel's House after Ethel is dead - Short or Long Rest because you cleared the whole dang place.
16. Zhentarim Hideout - Short or Long Rest. Perfect place for either, as long as you're either welcomed by them or they're cleared out. Quiet, hidden, and pretty much totally safe.
17. Waukeen's Rest Stables - Short or Long Rest. Doing either immediately shows cutscene where it rains and the fires are put out leaving the building a smoldering ruin. (You are unable to Short or Long Rest prior to the fires going out.)
18. Toll House - Short or Long Rest after you clear it of gnolls and enemies. Relatively safe since you can close and lock doors, etc. Again, only AFTER you clear enemies.
19. On the way to the Goblin Camp/Selunite Temple, Goblin Checkpoint - Short Rest. Whether you are friendly with them or hostile and killed them all first, you could likely get away with a short rest there once hostiles are not present.
20. Little secret nook behind a waterfall near the temple - Short or Long Rest. Hidden rest zone baby! Good find.
21. Goblin Camp itself - Long and Short Rest provided no hostiles. In other words, if the goblins are your enemies anywhere inside or outside of the temple, no rest. Otherwise, it's a total rest area. Might be fun to have some cutscenes showing you camping amidst goblins for the night and discussing the smell and such.
22. Inside Temple, up in the rafters - Short Rest. Out of sight, out of mind. No one bothers to check the rafters to see you taking a break up there.
23. Any room in the temple if you haven't alerted the goblins - Short Rest, and this only IF the area is cleared. In other words, you can't even Short Rest in the torture area if Spike is still there.
24. Ragzlin's Throne Room - Short or Long but only AFTER clearing the area of hostiles.
25. Gut's Chambers - Short or Long but only AFTER clearing the area of hostiles.
26. Selunite Outpost in the Underdark - Short or Long Rest, a good place to fall back to at any point in the Underdark
27. Spaw's Grotto, as long as they aren't hostile or they're all dead - Short or Long Rest. Another good place to fall back to.
28. Zhentarim Stash - Short or Long Rest
29. Decrepit Village - Short Rest. Not real safe for a Long Rest, and there are other Long Rest Areas not that far away that are MUCH safer and more intelligent.
30. Arcane Tower Bedroom Level - Short or Long. A GREAT Underdark Home Base
31. Camp near the Spectator Domain - Short Rest. There's a literal campfire there just begging to be used, but it's not exactly in the safest place. Makes more sense as a short rest area.
32. Grymforge Contemplation Chamber after encounter with Phil - Short or Long. Again, campfire and bedrolls already provided
33. Grymforge West Side with lots of crates and barrels and target practice dummies near Stonemason Kith (place overlooking the actual Sharran City on the northwest side of the map not far from where the rothe are trying to pull open the collapsed passage)- Short or Long Rest provided duergar aren't hostile.
34. Grymforge West of the Collapsed Temple Entrance Area (there are chairs and such in that little nook overlooking the Sharran city) - Short Rest
35. Grymforge Temple Entrance Area - Short Rest near tent and supplies provided duergar are friendly. Long Rest once the area is totally clear of duergar or you are friendly with Nere.
36. Dormitories on the east side - Short or Long Rest provided hostiles have been cleared.
37. Anywhere near the forge itself - Short or Long Rest. No one goes there. They haven't figured out how. Perfect spot to vacation.

Suffice to say, there are PLENTY of places to make resting spots in the game already that players really wouldn't need to backtrack to previous campsites very often. All of these locations would make it so that you could virtually short or long rest pretty frequently provided you had the resources and you wanted to spend them.

And honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think the Camping Supplies system isn't really needed. Go back to food and water and alcohol and such healing characters but only IF resting. IF Short or Long Resting, you use food to heal you up, each food item restoring HP equal to certain dice: d4, d6, d8, d10. No Short or Long Rest buttons or limitations other than these.

In other words, I fight devourers and need to short rest. I reach a short rest area and an indicator pops up. You can short rest here. So, I THEN pop up inventory and eat and drink until my characters are where I want them to be from an HP standpoint. I move on. Ouch. Hurt again. Short rest. Use food and drinks. I move on. Dang, hurt again. Still same day. Reach short rest area and use food and drink again. Three or four times or more, I can keep doing this. Finally, I'm out of spells and such. NOW I need to long rest. I've reached a long rest area like the dank crypt. I long rest and spend food to recover all HP and since it's a long rest, spell slots and such are also recovered. Make it so there is an auto-button that spends the food and drinks for you when you want to recover so if you just want to spend enough to be full health, it does it for you so you don't have to painfully feed each character food items until they're full health ALL the time.

What this does is puts long and short rest management fully into the player's hands, provides a need to keep food on you at all times, takes away short rest limitation of only 2 a day, which actually is rather limiting, makes food and drinks more important, and it makes it so you'll long rest less frequently. If you can short rest more, you'll end day less. Short rests are only supposed to be like an hour of resting. So let players short rest more.

Sure, it's not totally 5e, but we're not doing total 5e anyway with the current Short Rest No Hit Dice system, so why not? Reach short rest area, eat a carrot, restore 1d4 HP. Eat a rack of ribs, restore 1d10 HP. Whatever. Makes sense to allow such things in a Short Rest or Long Rest area.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Sooooo... makes no sense that it ISN'T foot for foot, meter for meter.
Yeah the problem here is that we dont really know distances nor the borders. :-/

So while two landscape objects distance is abstract ... another can easily be exact.

Imagine it as if you were taking map of any state, then you cut off all those empty space between cities and squeeze it together ...
There is no exact formula, sometimes you lost mile of forest, sometimes you loose thousand miles.

Obviously distances will be messed bcs nobody will know if this cliff is suppose to be next to the grove or miles away.


If my comments bother you, there is nothing easier than telling me to stop.
I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Sooooo... makes no sense that it ISN'T foot for foot, meter for meter.
Yeah the problem here is that we dont really know distances nor the borders. :-/

So while two landscape objects distance is abstract ... another can easily be exact.

Imagine it as if you were taking map of any state, then you cut off all those empty space between cities and squeeze it together ...
There is no exact formula, sometimes you lost mile of forest, sometimes you loose thousand miles.

Obviously distances will be messed bcs nobody will know if this cliff is suppose to be next to the grove or miles away.

Nope. No good trying to explain it. Makes no sense.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
You wpuld have to be more speciffic that that ...
What does not make sense to you?


If my comments bother you, there is nothing easier than telling me to stop.
I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
I can literally measure out in turn based mode every meter of the map.

Distance is therefore not abstract.

I can literally start a fight with an enemy at the beach and it can chase me in turn based mode all over the surface map, adding enemies after enemies and allies after allies wherever we go.

I can literally toss enemies from cliffs and buildings seamlessly from one location to another.

Distance is therefore not abstract.

I can see every area of the EA map from Waukeen's Rest's roof or from the Harper lookout. No borders. No shaded out areas. Nope. All appears to be one smooth landscape.

Distance is therefore not abstract.

Campsites exist somewhere in the area not on the map.

Distance is therefore abstract?

It doesn't make sense that harpies would live so close to the grove.

Distance is therefore abstract?

It doesn't make sense that Aradin and company would take so long to travel to a temple maybe 5 minutes jog away, but they've been gone a month and a half.

Distance is therefore abstract?

It doesn't make sense that Aradin and company were prowling around the temple so long, unable to find the entrance to the Underdark in the basement.

Distance is therefore abstract?

Back and forth, it's a weird contradiction.

In BG1 and 2, you had these map locations. You explored them. You got a feel that at least each location was step for step. Whether in combat or not, you were in a set location. It didn't feel exact one minute and abstract the next. Transitions were more gradual.

That said, I know what you're trying to say, but it makes no sense to me in this game.

In BG1 and 2 and others like it, each step could not have been literal on the game maps. Why? Because time passed on the clock quickly. If I did nothing for five minutes, a day might pass in the game. If I explored an entire map, by the end, it might transition from day to night.

So, it felt exact, but it was actually abstract. I get that. Larian's basically doing the same thing. The main difference is that you can zoom in real close and see all the details in all their glory.

Also, is Larian's campsite creations THAT different from original games? In BG1 and 2, I click Sleep button, trigger cutscene showing a campsite not necessarily on the map. It's not like there were exact map locations. You click the button, you camp SOMEwhere, who knows, and when transition ends, you continue the quest. Main difference? BG1 and 2 had random encounters.
BG3 has dialogue and interaction at camp. Not that different really.

So what's the issue? It FEELS weird. It's like it can't make up it's mind. Is it abstract or exact. In the previous games, each location was smaller with borders so you knew. One area was near the mountains. Next was heading into the foothills. It took 2 hours to transition from one to the other. Next is lower paths of the mountains. Took another 4 hours transition from one to the other. Next location was 3 hours away, etc.

BG3 takes what maybe should be multiple map locations and shoves them together with no borders and makes it feel all like one map. AND because you can measure it all out meter by meter, it makes it feel even more exact. AND there's nothing really telling you it isn't, like a clock or something to indicate, "Hey. I only went 2 minutes in RL through the map, but in the game 2 hours past."

Then, on top of it all, you can zoom in real nice - which I love and want even better camera controls - but it does give even MORE of the feeling that everything is very exact and not in the slightest abstract. I can pan that camera ALL around - which I like, again, more please - and I can view EVERYTHING.

Most games make it clear you're on a map that is not meter for meter. If you do enter a meter for meter map, you also know it. There's definitely differences. On the overhead map, your character is huge compared to objects, letting you know the character is a marker, not actual size. On a meter by meter location, everything is to scale. Player knows. Now it's exact, not abstract.

BG3 has nothing like that, and it messes with the reality and immersive-ness.

I'm trying to get some of that immersion feeling by suggesting SOMEthing they could do to at least make it so it feels less nebulous and weird.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, it felt exact, but it was actually abstract. I get that.
Certainly doesnt seems like you do ...

Lets try another example:
Would Mordor be any closer to the Shire ... if we would cut out all those nice looking, spinings shots of nature of New Zeland?
Probably not ...

Would the move be shorter?
Yes, a LOT shorter.

Just as you traveling from the Grove, to Blighted Village ... it only takes few seconds, bcs those hours of camera spining around while you traveling through forest and hills was CUT OUT ... you can measure every step as much as you like, but how do you want to measure distance from the ingame map, of regions that was "cut out"?

If i take Europe map, and i cut it in half ... and then i move it so Berlin is right next to Paris ... does that mean that Paris is from now on distanced 5km from Berlin? I gues not.
And that is exactly what happened here ... you take single landscape object (Grove), you take second landscape object (Blighted VIllage) and you cut everything in between, bcs roaming miles of forest would be for one boring, for two anoying, for three tedious, and for four not usefull for litteraly anything except one complaining person who keeps searching for problems where they are none. -_-


If my comments bother you, there is nothing easier than telling me to stop.
I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
Joined: Nov 2020
O
OcO Offline
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
O
Joined: Nov 2020
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I would honestly prefer a more immersive camp experience and do away with the mini-camps altogether. I think they look cool, but they're not necessary, and the fact that they have no placement on any map is just totally weird to me.

Here's what BG3 seems to me: A totally obscure game with a lot of things that just don't make sense.

On the one hand, I see people's points when they say that the game map is not meant to be meter for meter all the way through. You're suppose to imagine that the whole map is actually not to scale and distances are supposed to be more stretched out. In other words, the harpy nest isn't ACTUALLY right around the corner just outside the grove. It's actually like miles away. The map is not supposed to be actual distances.

Buuuuut... if I get into a fight with the harpies, little Mikron can literally dash his heart out all the way to the grove for safety, and you can literally fight the harpies all the way up the cliffs to the grove entrance.

Likewise, if I shove the bugbear on top of the cliff by Nadira the tiefling astronomer, I can send him flying approximately 60 feet off the edge and all the way down to Orm the bear who's fishing by the river.

Sooooo... makes no sense that it ISN'T foot for foot, meter for meter.

The camps are the exact same thing. It is clear based on dialogue and such that the camps are somewhere nearby on the map, but you can LITERALLY see everything. There is no camp east of Dank Crypt if you pan your camera out over the river. It's also not on the other side of the nautiloid near where you meet Astarion, though visually it looks like it belongs somewhere maybe over there closer to the bog. Likewise, in the Dank Crypt, there are no literal doors or stairs or anything leading into the mini-camp. You can literally explore everything in the Dank Crypt except beyond the sarcophagus chamber where you find the Book of Dead Gods, and that looks just like a cave system.

So it's weird because all you can think is, "What the heck? Why? Why did you make these weird mini-camps that are just nebulous pocket realms that exist nowhere? As pointed out, there are literally campsites and fireplaces and observable resting areas all over the place.

If it was me, I'd have made it where you can use all of the following places on the current map:

1. Beach near fishing piers - Short Rest Area (you can sit and enjoy the fish and recover, if needed, after fighting the intellect devourers should you go back that way)
2. Other side of nautiloid near boat pier there where you find crates and barrels - Short Rest Area (same as first spot)
3. Harper Cove where you find the Harper Map and such - Short Rest Area
4. Outside the upper Dank Crypt Ruins entranceway where there are benches at the overlook - Short Rest Area
5. Inside upper level of the Crypt after fighting Mari and Barton and their mercenaries - Long Rest area (because there's plenty of food and a fireplace and you can lock doors and everything) Finally, your first long rest area. Talk about preventing long rest spam up until this point. It would be your first real long rest since you started on the beach. It also makes sense that you wouldn't long rest until you'd made at least this much of a significant progress on your adventure. It's a decent amount of progress before your first End Day. Could you get stuck and unable to make it this far? Yes. Is that possible in the present game? Yes, actually. Make a wrong roll with the mind flayer and wind up dead. Reload. Battle goes wrong with Mari and Barton and company. Reload. There's not much of a difference.
6. The Grove, naturally - Long or Short Rest Area. Perfect place for your MAIN CAMP. It's the hub where you can buy and sell things and it's close enough to return to at any point especially with Fast Travel. This would be a place where you COULD spam Long Rest, but then, that would be no different from inns in other RPG's including the previous BG games. Return to the inn and long rest any time you want. Similarly, return to the Grove and long rest any time you want.
7. Harper Lookout - Short or Long Rest
8. Owlbear Cave- Short or Long Rest
9. Moonhaven Apothecary Cellar - Short or Long Rest
10. Moonhaven Blacksmith's Forge - Short or Long Rest
11. Bog Campsite - Short or Long Rest (but Long Rest provides potential Random Encounter chance; it's dangerous)
12. Ethel's House after the fight with the redcaps - Short Rest
13. Inside Ethel's Lair after you fight the Four Masks - Short Rest on the path on your way to her lair
14. Inside Ethel's Lair beyond the secret door entrance portal to the Underdark - Long Rest since it's remote, obscure, and probably not the first place Ethel would expect you to go. That said, if you Long Rest during the event, SOMEthing should happen like Ethel is totally surprised you're actually still in her lair. She thought you changed your mind and took off because you never showed up. Maybe you even catch her a bit unprepared. Or maybe Mayrina's already given birth and is dead. Something happens because you Long Rested instead of pushing forward to fight her right away.
15. Ethel's House after Ethel is dead - Short or Long Rest because you cleared the whole dang place.
16. Zhentarim Hideout - Short or Long Rest. Perfect place for either, as long as you're either welcomed by them or they're cleared out. Quiet, hidden, and pretty much totally safe.
17. Waukeen's Rest Stables - Short or Long Rest. Doing either immediately shows cutscene where it rains and the fires are put out leaving the building a smoldering ruin. (You are unable to Short or Long Rest prior to the fires going out.)
18. Toll House - Short or Long Rest after you clear it of gnolls and enemies. Relatively safe since you can close and lock doors, etc. Again, only AFTER you clear enemies.
19. On the way to the Goblin Camp/Selunite Temple, Goblin Checkpoint - Short Rest. Whether you are friendly with them or hostile and killed them all first, you could likely get away with a short rest there once hostiles are not present.
20. Little secret nook behind a waterfall near the temple - Short or Long Rest. Hidden rest zone baby! Good find.
21. Goblin Camp itself - Long and Short Rest provided no hostiles. In other words, if the goblins are your enemies anywhere inside or outside of the temple, no rest. Otherwise, it's a total rest area. Might be fun to have some cutscenes showing you camping amidst goblins for the night and discussing the smell and such.
22. Inside Temple, up in the rafters - Short Rest. Out of sight, out of mind. No one bothers to check the rafters to see you taking a break up there.
23. Any room in the temple if you haven't alerted the goblins - Short Rest, and this only IF the area is cleared. In other words, you can't even Short Rest in the torture area if Spike is still there.
24. Ragzlin's Throne Room - Short or Long but only AFTER clearing the area of hostiles.
25. Gut's Chambers - Short or Long but only AFTER clearing the area of hostiles.
26. Selunite Outpost in the Underdark - Short or Long Rest, a good place to fall back to at any point in the Underdark
27. Spaw's Grotto, as long as they aren't hostile or they're all dead - Short or Long Rest. Another good place to fall back to.
28. Zhentarim Stash - Short or Long Rest
29. Decrepit Village - Short Rest. Not real safe for a Long Rest, and there are other Long Rest Areas not that far away that are MUCH safer and more intelligent.
30. Arcane Tower Bedroom Level - Short or Long. A GREAT Underdark Home Base
31. Camp near the Spectator Domain - Short Rest. There's a literal campfire there just begging to be used, but it's not exactly in the safest place. Makes more sense as a short rest area.
32. Grymforge Contemplation Chamber after encounter with Phil - Short or Long. Again, campfire and bedrolls already provided
33. Grymforge West Side with lots of crates and barrels and target practice dummies near Stonemason Kith (place overlooking the actual Sharran City on the northwest side of the map not far from where the rothe are trying to pull open the collapsed passage)- Short or Long Rest provided duergar aren't hostile.
34. Grymforge West of the Collapsed Temple Entrance Area (there are chairs and such in that little nook overlooking the Sharran city) - Short Rest
35. Grymforge Temple Entrance Area - Short Rest near tent and supplies provided duergar are friendly. Long Rest once the area is totally clear of duergar or you are friendly with Nere.
36. Dormitories on the east side - Short or Long Rest provided hostiles have been cleared.
37. Anywhere near the forge itself - Short or Long Rest. No one goes there. They haven't figured out how. Perfect spot to vacation.

Suffice to say, there are PLENTY of places to make resting spots in the game already that players really wouldn't need to backtrack to previous campsites very often. All of these locations would make it so that you could virtually short or long rest pretty frequently provided you had the resources and you wanted to spend them.

And honestly, the more I think about it, the more I think the Camping Supplies system isn't really needed. Go back to food and water and alcohol and such healing characters but only IF resting. IF Short or Long Resting, you use food to heal you up, each food item restoring HP equal to certain dice: d4, d6, d8, d10. No Short or Long Rest buttons or limitations other than these.

In other words, I fight devourers and need to short rest. I reach a short rest area and an indicator pops up. You can short rest here. So, I THEN pop up inventory and eat and drink until my characters are where I want them to be from an HP standpoint. I move on. Ouch. Hurt again. Short rest. Use food and drinks. I move on. Dang, hurt again. Still same day. Reach short rest area and use food and drink again. Three or four times or more, I can keep doing this. Finally, I'm out of spells and such. NOW I need to long rest. I've reached a long rest area like the dank crypt. I long rest and spend food to recover all HP and since it's a long rest, spell slots and such are also recovered. Make it so there is an auto-button that spends the food and drinks for you when you want to recover so if you just want to spend enough to be full health, it does it for you so you don't have to painfully feed each character food items until they're full health ALL the time.

What this does is puts long and short rest management fully into the player's hands, provides a need to keep food on you at all times, takes away short rest limitation of only 2 a day, which actually is rather limiting, makes food and drinks more important, and it makes it so you'll long rest less frequently. If you can short rest more, you'll end day less. Short rests are only supposed to be like an hour of resting. So let players short rest more.

Sure, it's not totally 5e, but we're not doing total 5e anyway with the current Short Rest No Hit Dice system, so why not? Reach short rest area, eat a carrot, restore 1d4 HP. Eat a rack of ribs, restore 1d10 HP. Whatever. Makes sense to allow such things in a Short Rest or Long Rest area.

I'm not 100% on this I'm not a coder/game maker, however I think part of the issue is that camping and companion dialogue are linked coupled with Larian deciding to mocap everything. I haven't played since they added the new "localized instanced camps" how many types are there? Is it more than 1 generic camp for each the surface world, underdark and probably some general dungeon/temple? I'm not sure the game can render the current environment and play out their mocap'd dialogue. They would have to specifically create each of the various possible dialogue scenes at each of those 37 locations you listed.

Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
I figure at this point the mini camps ain't going nowhere. That's why I made the suggestion about finding a way to incorporate them into the current maps without much effort.

But whatever.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by OcO
They would have to specifically create each of the various possible dialogue scenes at each of those 37 locations you listed.
Not necesarily ...

If they would create some kind of "stage" in every camp, that will be exactly the same everywhere
(lets say: 5m wide, round shape, fireplace right in the middle, bedrolls around fireplace, open from South side, big obstacle on bottom right corner, etc.)

and then they code every conversation to happen in that space
(meaning every character that will not be there allready, like Raphael, will come from South, everyone else will stand inside the circle on start conversation, your character will allways sit by fire, in transformation scene you are allways lean on "big obstacle thing" ...)

and THEN (and this is most important) they adjust every camp to fit this "stage" ...
(meaning all other things will be around ... sometimes some cliff, sometimes some giant mushroom, sometimes sealed sarcophagus, sometimes old furnitude, sometimes tents, or trees etc ... just as decorations)

Cutscene will then happen in every camp exactly the same, no matter wich it is ...
Bcs from game perspective it really dont matter if you give that big obstacle object texture that looks like tree bark, or big rock, or some old pillar, or giant mushroom. smile

It would require to rework world map a little tho, but its certainly possible!


If my comments bother you, there is nothing easier than telling me to stop.
I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
Ok. Still trying to help develop a good solution for this.

5e States:
A Short Rest is a period of downtime, at least 1 hour long, during which a character does nothing more strenuous than eating, drinking, reading, and tending to wounds.

A character can spend one or more Hit Dice at the end of a Short Rest, up to the character’s maximum number of Hit Dice, which is equal to the character’s level. For each Hit Die spent in this way, the player rolls the die and adds the character’s Constitution modifier to it. The character regains Hit Points equal to the total. The player can decide to spend an additional Hit Die after each roll. A character regains some spent Hit Dice upon finishing a Long Rest, as explained below.

Here's my problem with BG3's current 2 Short Rest Limit. It severely limits the rest system you SHOULD be using and encourages the rest system you should not.

Technically, I should be able to have my characters short rest like 12 times a day if I want. Something like that. You don't always use short rests for healing. They're for spell and ability recovery for certain classes like warlock, fighter, etc. While mages have to do some wise spell Management, the warlock gets less spell slots but can short rest and get them back. It's important to the balance of the system.

Not only that but the point of short rests is to encourage the adventuring day. The longer you can go in a single day, the better. That's the whole point of short rests. They allow a party to keep going instead of constantly calling it quits after a few battles.

So I say unlimit the short rests but put Hit Dice in the rules OR use food and camping supplies to limit short rests also. That way, players can short rest and spend food to recover HP, and if they aren't careful, they might need to buy more food from a vendor because they're using it all on short rests.

Either way, I think if short rest is revamped, Long will be spammed less.

Long Rest
A Long Rest is a period of extended downtime, at least 8 hours long, during which a character sleeps or performs light activity: reading, talking, eating, or standing watch for no more than 2 hours. If the rest is interrupted by a period of strenuous activity—at least 1 hour of walking, Fighting, casting Spells, or similar Adventuring activity—the Characters must begin the rest again to gain any benefit from it.

At the end of a Long Rest, a character regains all lost Hit Points. The character also regains spent Hit Dice, up to a number of dice equal to half of the character’s total number of them (minimum of one die). For example, if a character has eight Hit Dice, he or she can regain four spent Hit Dice upon finishing a Long Rest.

A character can’t benefit from more than one Long Rest in a 24-hour period, and a character must have at least 1 hit point at the start of the rest to gain its benefits.

Random Encounters interrupting long rest would therefore totally mess up a "night's rest". So this wouldn't work with BG3 unless you could adventure by night and sleep by day. After much thought, this could cause issues. As pointed out, people will use more days long resting to try to recover fully, not less.

No. I think the real key is to make short rest more effective and appealing to spam than long rest. Wizards should not regain all their spell slots during short rest, mind you, or again it's too OP at later levels, but if you have characters at least being able to heal up for less food resources, etc., Players will see more of a benefit in short rather than long resting.

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Players will see more of a benefit in short rather than long resting.
And the main question stays the same ...
What benefit would this bring except puting minds of strict PnP rules lovers at ease?

I mean concidering that they tied story progression with followers quests to Long rests ... do you really believe they are looking for something that would encourage people to short rest rather than long? :-/

Dont get me wrong here i like the idea ... a lot actualy.
From top to bottom, but i still have to ask. :-/


If my comments bother you, there is nothing easier than telling me to stop.
I mean ... I won't ... but it's easy to say. wink
Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by GM4Him
Players will see more of a benefit in short rather than long resting.
And the main question stays the same ...
What benefit would this bring except puting minds of strict PnP rules lovers at ease?

I mean concidering that they tied story progression with followers quests to Long rests ... do you really believe they are looking for something that would encourage people to short rest rather than long? :-/

Dont get me wrong here i like the idea ... a lot actualy.
From top to bottom, but i still have to ask. :-/

Well, now, that would need to be a part of the package deal that we've been trying to also get them to do. Untie dialogues and story from Long Rests. Now, I get that some make more sense at Long Rest, such as Raphael showing up at camp at night. MUCH better ambiance there. It'd be weird having him show up during a Short Rest, or something similar during broad daylight.

So why not tie dialogues and story to both Short or Long Rests?

Example. Shadowheart and I defeat the intellect devourers. First time playing, I ignored her advice and got up close. Those nasty things nearly killed me, so I need to rest. However, game suggests Short Rest now instead of Long. So, as a new player, I'm inclined to Short Rest. Tool Tips also kind of explain the difference. Hmmm. I didn't really spend spell slots. All I need is health back. I picked up enough fish and stuff to afford a Short Rest. So I do.

Whisk! Cutscene shows me and Shadowheart walking into the camp for the first time except that it's daylight and not night. "This looks like just as good a place as any," I say, and it shows me and Shadowheart in the camp.

Shadowheart cutscene. "I'm not sure this is a good idea."

"What's not a good idea?" I ask.

"We need to find a healer... etc. etc. etc." she says. The only difference. She doesn't say, "Let's get a move on in the morning," or anything like that. She just says, "Let's take a short rest and move on."

Dialogue ends. You're in the camp. You click on the campfire, per new (suggested) tool tip. Pulls up that nifty Camping Supplies window, but this time it says that the Short Rest requirement is only the number of hit points you need to be full health. Let's say I lost 7 HP. Shadowheart lost none. I only need 7 Camping Supplies for a Short Rest and I'm full health.

Cutscene dialogue was able to be done based on Short Rest, Short Rest was used instead of Long, still the same day, Short Rest expended some Camping Supplies, but not as much as Long Rest... Yeah. I'm inclined to use Short Rest more. It's cheaper, AND I still get my dialogues.

Later, I short rest after Gale joins. Same thing. Bounce to camp. "Go to Hell," Gale dialogue initiates. Gale cast a spell. NOW he can use his Arcane Recovery to regain his spell slot - NOT at any point during his travels. He must wait for a Short Rest. During your Short Rest, the game even reminds you, "Would you like to use Arcane Recover for Gale to regain a missing spell slot?" Suddenly, Gale's Arcane Recovery is not forgotten, as I actually do forget it regularly because I'm used to Arcane Recovery being at Short Rests. Suddenly, a Short Rest is preferred because the mage cannot regain his spell slot until you short rest.

During the same Short Rest, Lae'zel is able to recover her Second Wind AND Action Surge, because both are able to be recovered each and every Short Rest. Again, Short Rest suddenly very much preferred rather than Long Rest. Lae'zel and Gale didn't even lose HP during the adventure so far, so a Short Rest is only being used for them to recover abilities and spell slots, AND we get the dialogue, AND Short Rest isn't just some magic recovery button you click while in the middle of a dungeon surrounded by phase spiders who are looking for you. It indicates, by taking you to camp, that you left and went to a safer spot to recover, even for a short rest.

So why would players use Long Rest? ONLY once they start really feeling like they need to. Gale spent all his spell slots AND has already used Arcane Recovery, Shadowheart has used all her spell slots, everyone's low on HP, so the Camping Cost will be higher anyway, etc.

COULD someone still spam Long Rest? Absolutely. BUT it's no longer encouraged and in fact Short Rest is more encouraged. Spam both if you'd like, but each time you do, you spend Camping Supplies.

That said, there should be at least some minimum Short Rest Camping Supply Cost, like maybe 5 Camping Supplies for every Short Rest, just to make sure people aren't Short Resting after every fight just to recover a hit point or two or just to recover special abilities like Second Wind and Action Surge and Battlemaster's Maneuvers, and so forth. There should, at the very least, be some Camping Supply cost for that reason.

I think this would make the game feel more immersive, because you're using food more even when Short Resting, it would give players more ability to see camp dialogues, it would discourage Long Rest/End Day so that you aren't adventuring for 5 minutes and sleeping 24 hours, it makes warlock spells more valuable because now players will use Short Rests more to recover their spell slots, along with monks in the future, by the way, with their ki, and fighters and barbarians as well, and so forth.

Oh, and Long Rest Camping Supply Cost should not just be a flat 40 every time. I thought they weren't going to do that but base it on level and so forth. I'm not seeing that at all. Regardless, I think the Long Rest Camping Supply Cost should be, as I've stated before, 2 Camping Supplies per Character Level per Character in the Camp. Have MC and 5 characters at camp at level 3? That's 30 Camping Supplies for a Long Rest (2x3=6x5=30). Add Volo to camp, now it's 40 because he's Level 5, or something. Dang! Maybe I should kick Volo from camp. He's eating all my food, the pig. Do I really need him? Withers doesn't eat, so he doesn't cost. Scratch maybe is 2 Camping Supplies, and same with the Owlbear Cub. Halsin is level 5, so he'd be another 10. Hmmm. Do I need him either? Really? What about Barcus? Yeah, maybe I don't even need Astarion, if I'm a rogue, or Wyll, if I'm a warlock. That'll cut down on Camping Supply Costs for Long Rests. So I ask them to leave the party.

Leave it up to the players, and give them a reason to NOT want to keep characters around if they aren't going to need them instead of just having characters sitting at camp doing nothing all the time. Makes it more strategic, especially as you get to higher levels and the Camping Costs get higher for Long Rests. This would ALSO majorly cut down on Long Rest spam at higher levels because suddenly, at level 8, a campsite of 4 only is 2x8=16x4=64. Eek. Wait. I could maybe Short Rest and do some recovery of HP and even use Arcane Recovery to regain spell slots for, let's say 30 total Camping Supplies becuase I need 30 HP back, or I would need to spend 64 for a Long Rest? And if I have 8 people at camp and not just 4, it'll cost 128?!! Yeah. I think I'll Short Rest a lot more at 30 rather than 128 for a Long Rest, and I'll try to use more scrolls and potions and things to supplement my loss of spell slots if I need to because I can't afford 128 Camping Supplies on a regular basis.

Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
OK. Imagine this: Crash on beach. Fight devourers. Multiplayer 4 players. Player 1 lost 4 HP. Player 2 lost 3. Player 3 lost 7. Player 4 lost 5. Level up!

Tool tip pops up: "Short rest can be done at any time, as much as you want, by pressing the Short Rest icon. This will fast travel you to one of the camps for safe resting. Short Rest costs 1 Camping Supply per point of HP you wish to recover - minimum 1 Camping Supply per character. Each character spends Camping Supplies individually and can spend as much or as little as they wish - minimum 1. That character must either have Camping Supplies in their inventory or in their own personal Traveler's Chest at Camp. In Single Player Mode, all characters share the same inventory and Traveler's Chest at Camp. Short rests also reset various class spell slots and abilities. For example, the Warlock has all spell slots replenished after every Short or Long Rest. The Fighter's Action Surge and Second Wind and other later abilities, the Druid's Wild Shape, the Cleric's Channel Divinity powers, and the Monk's Ki also reset after a Short or Long Rest. Besides this, a Short or Long Rest is required to Level Up your characters, a Wizard can use Arcane Recovery ONLY during a Short Rest to recover some spent spell slots, and many dialogues are only triggered during a Short or Long Rest."

"For Long Rest, all abilities and spell slots are reset, and all HP is restored. Many conditions applied to your characters will also be removed during a Long Rest. A Long Rest ends the adventuring day, meaning your party is resting for the remainder of the day and starting again in the morning. Long Rest costs 5 Camping Supplies per Character Level at the Camp. So, if you have 2 characters at the camp at Level 2, the cost is 20 Camping Supplies (5 x 4 Character Levels). If you have a party of 4 at Level 2, the cost is 40 Camping Supplies (5 x 8 Character Levels). The cost is steeper because of the additional benefits of Long Rest."

So, with our example, each player gets the Camping Supplies window and chooses how much they want to heal up during a Short Rest. Player 1 spends 4 Camp Supplies in his own inventory to heal up to full health. Player 2 spends 3. Player 3 spends 4, leaving 3 HP loss. Player 4 spends 3, leaving 2 HP loss. Players exit camp after Short Rest, appropriate abilities are reset: such as Second Wind, Warlock Spell Slots, etc. As the Wizard is exiting camp, she is asked, "Do you want to use Arcane Recovery?" If Yes, the Wizard can then choose how many spell slots from their maximum Arcane Recovery pool, that they wish to recover. So, at Level 2, the Wizard could recover 1 Level 1 spell slot. In options, a player can turn off the popup, choosing to trigger Arcane Recover themselves during a Short Rest without having the reminder - if they feel it's annoying.

Later, players choose to Long Rest after fighting their way past Mari and Barton and company. They now have Party of 4 customs, Shadowheart, Astarion, Gale and Lae'zel, because they picked up Lae'zel before going to the crypt. Hmmm. Do they really need to keep all these characters around? The cost is going to be 5 times he total Character Level. That's a steep price for characters they will NEVER use because with a Party of 4 customs (based on present game anyway), they can NEVER take any of the origin characters in their party... ever. So why keep them around? They'll just leech off of you. So, you take a Long Rest and boot those puppies from your camp. Camping that night for a party of 4 Level 2 characters would be 40 Camping Supplies. If you keep the others with you, it's 80 Camping Supplies. Yeah. Time to boot the excess baggage.

The basic Camping Supplies cost for Short Rest severely pushes players towards Short Rest while the higher cost of Camping Supplies for Long Rest discourages frequent Long Resting. As a party, if I need to recover 19 HP and my abilities and some spells, I can spend 19 Camping Supplies as opposed to 40. At later levels, this becomes even more pronounced as the cost for camping during Long Rest would be even greater. 4 Level 8 characters would be 160 Camping Supplies per Long Rest, but if you only need to restore maybe 30 HP as a whole party, that would be only 30 Camping Supplies for a Short Rest; a considerable difference. And, if they do actually listen to a lot of us and increase party size to 6, the costs become even more. You might spend 40 Camping Supplies for a Short Rest for a Party of 6 Level 5's, but 150 for a Long Rest.

Maybe 5 Camping Supplies per Character Level is too much for some players. Provide a Long Rest Camping Supplies Cost slider that reduces the cost from 5 per Character Level to 4 or 3 - 3 being minimum so there is at least SOME cost to Long Resting that would maybe still encourage Short Rest at least a bit more frequently than Long.

With Tool Tips that explain the details more, and are worded to encourage Short Rest more than long, and with Camp Supply Costs being less severe for Short as opposed to Long, players would be far more inclined, I would think, to Short Rest more and Long Rest less. It also encourages players to boot party members they aren't using or don't plan to use. It makes camp management a bit more immersive, and it makes food you pick up A LOT more valuable. With as much food as they're dropping currently in the game for players to pick up, this would truly be no big deal. You could likely Short Rest multiple times in the beginning and still Long Rest a few times before reaching the grove.

And, I almost forgot to tweak this idea a bit from previous mentions of it. No cost for extras in the camp. Yeah, upon further consideration, Volo, Scratch, Halsin, Owlbear Cub, etc. shouldn't cost a thing. If you aren't taking them with you to adventure, restoring their HP or spell slots, they shouldn't cost a thing. Let them find their own food. smile

Last edited by GM4Him; 03/03/22 04:49 PM.
Page 23 of 32 1 2 21 22 23 24 25 31 32

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5