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Agreed, appreciate you shining a light on this stuff. I wonder if Larian is regretting tackling this level of interactivity in the cinematics – with such variation in body sizes? Has any game done this before? Or is Larian breaking new ground? I know DA had dwarves, but did they have in-engine cutscenes where they were embracing other characters etc? It's been a long time since I played those...



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I have yet to play a halfling but yeah that's a bit of an off-putting model flaw. I hope they fix these soon!


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Originally Posted by LukasPrism
I wonder if Larian is regretting tackling this level of interactivity in the cinematics – with such variation in body sizes? Has any game done this before?

I hope not ^.^ I'm detailed and harsh about this because I desperately want them to do this well. Video games with customisable characters usually minimise the amount of direct model interaction in their story scenes, and the vast majority of them avoid having to work with smaller-sized characters as much as they can. Especially where things like romance sequences are concerned, most games refuse to do it at all, and it's very disheartening. If Larian do this really well, with satisfying small models that are well proportioned, and with animations that are tailored to them specifically, so they fit and work, they will be virtually the first company ever to do so... and I really want them to be.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by LukasPrism
I wonder if Larian is regretting tackling this level of interactivity in the cinematics – with such variation in body sizes? Has any game done this before?

I hope not ^.^ I'm detailed and harsh about this because I desperately want them to do this well. Video games with customisable characters usually minimise the amount of direct model interaction in their story scenes, and the vast majority of them avoid having to work with smaller-sized characters as much as they can. Especially where things like romance sequences are concerned, most games refuse to do it at all, and it's very disheartening. If Larian do this really well, with satisfying small models that are well proportioned, and with animations that are tailored to them specifically, so they fit and work, they will be virtually the first company ever to do so... and I really want them to be.
I'm curious: would you prefer that Larian implement these types of romance sequences poorly or not at all? Obviously the former is not great, and the latter you say "is disheartening" (DAO/DAI?).

I suppose I'm defining "poorly" as their current implementation.

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Niara Offline OP
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Honestly, I don't want to answer that question - because I don't like either option and I don't want to make the concession ^.^

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Hey folks!

Just wanted to bring up another little comparison that shows some decent options and possibilities.

This is Wren, or at least, it's one game space's version of her:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

She's the halfling-equivalent race in this world space; they are a race of small (but fully adult) creatures that have more or less the same body proportion averages as humans, and they stand at approximately 3 feet tall, just like D&D halflings should.

Here are a few better shots of her in some better lighting:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

And a quick more detailed front-back-side line up:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

This is an example of good proportions for a small creature: she's definitely got human proportions, and she's definitely go the body of a mature adult of her species, undeniably so (As an aside, her bust is quite literally as small as I can make it in this game, and it's still very clearly developed and adult – in terms of strictly relative proportions, her bust is no smaller than mine).

Her proportions aren't quite the same as a regular humans; she's actually a little stockier than you'd expect on a human, and the extremities of her limbs are more solid in relation the rest of her body – only slightly, but tangibly so compared to human scale. Also, yes, her head Is slightly larger in relative terms to the rest of her body compared to a human...

However, with these proportional differences, as minor as they are, the model looks good; it looks like a healthy, mature creature that suites its own body and makes sense, and it doesn't create any uncanny discomfort. And she's adorable.

This is not hard; this game came out a few years ago now, and was remarked at the time for its character creator, which, incidentally – and this is for Larian! - Can be used to its full extent completely without the use of sliders! (sliders are an option, but there are multiple control methods that can achieve the same results, so you can use it completely slider free if you want.)

So let's do a quick side-by-side of how these characters look in their own game spaces:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

On the left we have a figure that is 3 feet tall, has naturalised proportions for her size that are mostly human-adjacent – slightly larger head ratio (but still smaller than the human's head), slightly more solid lime extremities, but all subtle shifts to help the model look more natural, normal and healthy. There's no danger of her looking like or being mistaken for a human child with these size proportions – she's just a different type of creature.

On the right, a 4 - 4½ foot figure with exactly human-sized dimensions in some places, ridiculously tapered dimensions in others, and a literally-larger head than the human she's standing next to, which all come together to make a figure that doe not look healthy or natural in her own body at all, and is either badly deformed, or else is just a human exhibiting a form of dwarfism. It's not comfortable or satisfying at all.

Please, please, I'm asking anyone who still has the stamina and energy - please submit reports to Larian on the topic (Feedback form is Here) and ask them to fix this; the halfling models need to be fixed, they simply must be.

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I have submit feedback via the form, I like my halflings better proportioned.


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+100 Niara. Great comparison.

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Originally Posted by Niara
There's no danger of her looking like or being mistaken for a human child with these size proportions
I dare to disagree with this claim. O_o
But i gues that is just matter of perception.


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I initially had the same issue, but then I realised that it's mostly the face's fault.That's a child's face, but not a child's body. And it's not an issue unique to that character, a lot of the characters in that game have extremely young faces, to the point where it appears comical in a couple of places, with an extremely small young face on a busty amazonian body, two conflicting design aesthetics on the same character model.

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The faces are all bordering on anime, it's true. The face structure on the model is actually customised to give it narrower and sharper features than the default, which was even more round and soft...

Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I dare to disagree with this claim. O_o
But i gues that is just matter of perception.

The body model and its proportions are adult: they have defined and developed hips, developed breasts and fully elongated limbs comparative to their torso; juveniles do not have these features. In order to infantalise this model you have to actively ignore all of these details, or pretend you don't see them.

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I'm sorry, but Niara's 100% on this one. The BG3 halflings are the worst halflings in D&D history. As much as I've criticized Solasta on models and their appeal, I've at least created numerous halfling characters in that game that look like actual halflings. The BG3 halflings are just... Not good.

I should take a screenshot of my drowish evil halfling wizard from Solasta and post it. You'll see another example of how a halfling is supposed to look... Or maybe my halfling paladin.

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Originally Posted by Niara
The body model and its proportions are adult:
No argue here ...

Except they must be inspected up close to be noticeable (and on naked, or underwear, model) ... therefore they are oversightable(?) ... and therefore the character in my quite honest opinion can be misstaken for a child.
Nothing more.

Call me ignorant if you wish, but i can swear that i would simply not notice ... especialy when clothed ... since they are simply not visible enough for my (male / human / untrained) eyes. :-/
But you said it yourself, you purposefully chosen her breasts small. laugh

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 07/07/22 06:16 AM.

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I am still very much for a change of the Halfling model. And i really hope that larian does not ignore this.

No matter what anyone says about "not beeing mistaken for a child", i agree with Ragnarok on this. Ofc it can. Personally i don't really see an issue with that. There are normal adults in RL that can be mistaken for children and some children that look far older than they actually are. Nowadays there are 13 year old that
have a bust size of C and bigger.

I have read novels where halflings actually want to be mistaken for a human child. Especially Rogues laugh

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I did, at that, Rag, and fair enough in a way... but let me ask you a question... What age of human child, do you imagine you might mistake a halfling for? If you say 2-4 I'll call you a liar... and if you say 5-12, I'll tell you that the halfling is actually notably too short to be easily mistaken for such; kids that age are already much taller ^.^ It's *hard* to honestly evaluate this compared to reality, though, given the lack of reality in the situation; the 'child' that you're most likely imaging this halfling being taken for is, in human reality, more likely to be over four and half feet tall; you'd glance at them, and you brain might go 'child?' but it would also immediately recalibrate for them being way too short for their normalised proportions and go 'no, halfling' right away - you simply would not make that mistake in a real situation. We won't really be able to prove this before we have some kind of .hack// full immersion world space to confirm it in though.

==

You're not wrong, Evil... I'm just really tired of a lot of what I see in contemporary discussions on the topic - I'm in the category of people who regularly face being denied our legitimate adulthood by such people... people who automatically see anything short or petitely built and screech 'problematic' at the top of their internet lungs... the kind of people who would tell someone like me that I oughtn't even have a sex life, or admit to being a sexual entity at all, because it's 'encouraging paedophiles' or what have you... and from my perspective it often feels like the greater social community is in full swing of downright vilifying the victims of this behaviour, and I don't want to stand for it.

In pathfinder you had to take a specific trait in your background to let you attempt to pass yourself off as a human youth - without the trait you couldn't effectively do it, or at least, it's far more difficult. But the trait does exist, and it's pretty cool that it acknowledges that it can be a thing, isn't by default, and is something that characters may want to do for various sneaky reasons at times... I actually really appreciated that during my brief stint with pathfinder.

I think well proportioned halflings could certainly try to pass themselves off has human youths, and could even do it successfully with good checks, but I disagree that they could or would be taken for such by average people without some effort on the halfling's part to appear so in the first place. People in the realms see halflings regularly, after all, and are going to be more accustomed to the visual and physical differences. The fact that many modern people from various social media circles would screech and point the finger at them regardless of what they did or how they presented is not the fault of the halfling - it's a reflection on the one pointing, and they are not the people I feel that we should be accommodating, because that behaviour is not healthy or respectful.

==

Still, I've tried hard over the course of this thread to prevent it from getting into these kinds of discussions in any derailing depth - the focus should remain on how terrible the current BG3 models are, and the ways in which they need to be fixed to look better.

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Originally Posted by UnknownEvil
I am still very much for a change of the Halfling model. And i really hope that larian does not ignore this.

No matter what anyone says about "not beeing mistaken for a child", i agree with Ragnarok on this. Ofc it can. Personally i don't really see an issue with that. There are normal adults in RL that can be mistaken for children and some children that look far older than they actually are. Nowadays there are 13 year old that
have a bust size of C and bigger.

I have read novels where halflings actually want to be mistaken for a human child. Especially Rogues laugh

There was a viral clip going around of a man with dwarfism boarding a bus and getting mistaken for a child by the guy behind him, who lifted him up by the armpits, because he thought he was helping a kid. It totally happens irl, and apparently being treated like kids because of their size is a big hot issue for many in the little people community.

But Pathfinder decided to make this a feature of Halfling, and they have the Childlike racial feat that gives them bonuses to bluff and disguise.

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Just creepy...queer...all of it. All you people liking this...man. Is this a generation thing?
The younger gamers (under 40) loving this weird manga like <im an adult> but look like a kid style? And that in game gnome lady with the axe...man straight out of an horror flick ROFL.

Why do we not have a game yet that can replicate all these quick ass amazing fantasy art portraits into a 3D game character??? This has been my dream since...I started playing RPGs in the 90s. Common Larian!!!

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Originally Posted by mr_planescapist
Just creepy...queer...all of it. All you people liking this...man. Is this a generation thing?
The younger gamers (under 40) loving this weird manga like <im an adult> but look like a kid style? And that in game gnome lady with the axe...man straight out of an horror flick ROFL.

Why do we not have a game yet that can replicate all these quick ass amazing fantasy art portraits into a 3D game character??? This has been my dream since...I started playing RPGs in the 90s. Common Larian!!!

Can't save the world if you ain't cute. Nothing better than a Halfling who can absolutely wreck house.

But seriously. Not everyone likes the same aesthetics. I'd love a return to the old sword and sorcery style, if that meant more naked straining man thighs and barely covered bulging loincloths, but that's not to everyone's taste. The current Halfling models are bad though, and they need to be fixed, plenty of people in this thread agree on that point.

I've always disliked the bobble-head style that we seem to have gained with 5e. I prefer the 3e designs, which were more slim. They were even posted earlier in this thread:

Originally Posted by Sadurian
[Linked Image from gocorral.files.wordpress.com]

And yes, they were closer to that anime style small body than the bobbleheads we have now. You can try arguing that the bobblehead is a return to form, as that was common in AD&D and 1e, but they were also just Hobbits back then, and got changed to avoid being sued into oblivion by Tolkien.

EDIT

I just realised I literally already talked about that in this same thread!

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Originally Posted by Niara
What age of human child, do you imagine you might mistake a halfling for?
I didnt even thought about it honestly. laugh

Originally Posted by Niara
kids that age are already much taller ^.^
I take your word for that ... i remember you mentioned in some early topic (unless it was typo?) that you are quite short person (i remember the number you used, and i still find it quite fascinating, even tho i cant imagine it to be compeltely honest ... and i dont mean it in any bad way!!!) so maybe you see it from different perspective ...

Me ... i sort myself between quite large people (i wish i could say just tall, but i wont lie laugh )
And since im used to meeting mature people (females usualy) that are almost two heads shorter than me ... while sometimes i meet other persons who are just barely reaching that 12th birthday ... and allready overgrown them ...

I dunno, i would most likely discourage from basing age guessing only on someone tallness. laugh


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I don't know, why you are all so set about that mangaface. I mean, yeah, it is manga, but the body features look exactly like I want to have my halfing - and so much better than BG3 halfling.


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