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#813988 22/04/22 09:51 PM
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This one should be easy. Basically, many special abilities and such are reset during Short Rests (like the fighter's Action Surge and Second Wind). So, they need to be limited in some fashion. However, should that limit be such a hard limit as only 2 per day? This is kind of pointless since Long Rest is unlimited. Why not long rest instead of short rest since you get more benefits from long rest? I mean, the current system kind of discourages short rest because there really isn't as much benefit from it. You can fast travel from just about anywhere to any camp and long rest at any time. So...

But, regardless of long rest limitations, this poll is about how many Short Rests should Larian allow players to have per Long Rest?

1. Unlimited
2. 2
3. 3
4. 4
5. 5 or more
6. Limited by Hit Dice. You get 1 Hit Die per Character Level per character per Long Rest. If you have even 1 Hit Die, you can heal, regain special abilities, etc. If you run out of Hit Dice, you can't gain the benefits of a Short Rest. Something LIKE this. Doesn't have to be exactly like this, but something similar using Hit Dice to limit how many Short Rests a player can use.
7. Limited by Camping Supplies - Basically, Short Rests also cost camping supplies. However, the cost of a Short Rest is much less than the cost of a Long Rest. So, it is still beneficial to Short Rest more than Long Rest, but it is limited by camping supply costs as opposed to a hard number limit. Thus, in order to short rest, you need to keep camping supplies on you, at least enough to short rest.
8. Limited by something else.

Basically, again, this is not about Long Rest. I mean, they are related, but ultimately if you don't want them to change the number of limits for Short Rest but focus mainly on limiting Long Rest in some way, just vote for 2.

Short Rest
single choice
Votes accepted starting: 22/04/22 09:51 PM
GM4Him #813989 22/04/22 09:57 PM
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Dang! I meant to make it so you could select multiple and then provide your reasoning why you chose multiple. Oh well.

I prefer Hit Dice because that puts full strategy into the hands of the players. It also means you could have more short rests at higher levels when you might need them more - unless you get really beat up during a particular fight.

Imagine a player at level 8. They could take 8 short rests per day, spreading them out because they have 8 Hit Dice and could only use 1 per short rest. However, if they get hit hard and need to heal more after a particular fight, they might spend most or all of their hit dice in 1 short rest. Thus, not able to have as many that particular day because a single battle (or two) was really tough.

However, I would also not mind something else like a camping supply cost. I just think 2 is not enough and doesn't encourage short resting enough.

GM4Him #813990 22/04/22 10:07 PM
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I have to admit I don't really give much of a damn about the balance of short rest. It's nowhere near as impactful as long rest in the grand scheme of things.

Asking how many times you should be allowed to do one is a bit weird, though, since it really depends on how the game is going to be balanced in the end (how frequent will fights be in a certain area? How threatening? Are we getting proper passage of time or not? Does it matter in any way? Etc.

GM4Him #813993 22/04/22 10:33 PM
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I think as it is, it's alright, though I prefer how Solasta did it - feels a bit more impactful, and easier to understand what you get, and how each class differs.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I just think 2 is not enough and doesn't encourage short resting enough.
With story content being tied to long rests, I don't think you want to discourage long resting any more - at least I don't want to discourage myself from long resting.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
I think as it is, it's alright, though I prefer how Solasta did it - feels a bit more impactful, and easier to understand what you get, and how each class differs.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I just think 2 is not enough and doesn't encourage short resting enough.
With story content being tied to long rests, I don't think you want to discourage long resting any more - at least I don't want to discourage myself from long resting.

Yes. Well. That's a whole separate issue.

See? I didn't include that like I wanted because people didn't want me to combine things. I was going to do 1 poll with options for Long Rest, short rest and dialogue tied to short rest, etc.

Ugh. I can't win.

GM4Him #814011 23/04/22 07:06 AM
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Hit dices sounds the most fun ...
ON the other hand they add yet another mechanic to watch. :-/

So i voted fo Camp Supplies.


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GM4Him #814022 23/04/22 02:54 PM
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In the end, i'm not sure limiting short rest is really necessary... The RAW hit dice system create a limit by itself.
It doesn't require additionnal rules / mechanical limitations imo.

If we don't regain HP when we short rest because we're totally out of hit dices, players will have to long rest soon. So I voted 6 but for "something similar" in mind.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Hit dices sounds the most fun ...
ON the other hand they add yet another mechanic to watch. :-/

"It sounds funnier but I don't want more fun if it require any effort"

Last edited by Maximuuus; 23/04/22 04:31 PM.
GM4Him #814028 23/04/22 04:41 PM
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Hit Dice sounded thought out and unique, +1

Edit* Glad to see polls getting used finally

Last edited by fallenj; 23/04/22 04:42 PM.
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
"It sounds funnier but I don't want more fun if it require any effort"
Its certainly one way to read it ...
Personaly i preffer it sounds fun ... but since i know that many ideas can sound fun on paper, but are not so fun in the game ... i would need to see some real model of Larian implementation, before i would give it my vote. smile

I allready know food suplies, and i kinda like them ... so ... easy choice for me. wink


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GM4Him #814038 23/04/22 08:52 PM
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And you would really like to manage food supply even more ? because you'd always need to have some in your inventory to short rest...
I "kinda like" the food supply system too...

But I'd rather have to watch a new easy and gameplay-wise interresting mechanic than having to manage my inventory even more...

(actual food supply system = inventory management and nothing more)

Last edited by Maximuuus; 23/04/22 09:26 PM.
GM4Him #814039 23/04/22 09:28 PM
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Well ... honestly?
Since i find sending all food to camp to be basicaly exploit ...
And since i find going for food every time i want to rest kinda anoying ...

I dont do either. smile
I allways have single character that is mainly "food carrier" instead. laugh
(No i dont gather all food that is in the game, but i keep somehow "healthy" amount i presume would be fitting ... usualy i have around 60-70 units on me at all time. smile Even tho i missjudged few times allready, but then i just make partial rest, focus on food a little more and go rest again once my resources are gone. laugh )

So it would make no difference for me. wink smile

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 23/04/22 09:31 PM.

In the words of the senior NCO instructor at cadet battalion:
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GM4Him #814090 24/04/22 04:43 PM
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Tie the story in with the short rest in some fashion like the long rest(and do random encounters) and I will be happy however it’s implemented…

Last edited by avahZ Darkwood; 24/04/22 04:43 PM.
GM4Him #814431 01/05/22 04:58 PM
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UNLIMITED POWER!

Its the RAW after all.

GM4Him #814950 14/05/22 06:07 AM
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I voted " Limited by something else".

Since you can hardly predict party composition and tailor the entire game for all possible classes combinations I think the best solution is simply to have it as it is right now ( 2 uses + virtually unlimited long rest) and restricted in some areas with prior info for player how his ressources should be distributed.

" We won't be able to rest if we go there until we do X,Y,Z and Z is the ultimate goal/boss whatever". If you decide to leave you" fail " the quest in a way with no possiblity to come back for instance. A " localised " sleeping denial creates a closed environment you can control and balance with relative ease to not be a " brick wall" impossible to go throught for some party compositions. You avoid a game with a " dead end" with no possible solution. And yet you reward good ressource management in the light of this closed environment. In this particular case you can adjust the encounter to the existing sleeping mechanics(Only short rest, no long rest for instance).

On the scale of the entire game however .... how do you want to limit short rest? On what basis? You can short rest 6 times? 20 times? Why not unlimited? You can't have arguments for or against in a situation where you simply do not know what challenges the player will be facing at a given time. The resting systems replenishes player's ressources so he can deal with the challenge on the map. The player currently can sleep virtually endlessly because all challenges on the map (if put together) are infinitely outclassing a 4 men party capabilities. And you don't know in what order the player will approach them. You have a limited control over starting ressources(Level design is the answer here, obviously you can make it in such a way you will predict player's movement.But you will never cover all scenarios with level design. You can't create a dead end when the only solution is "reload and don't fail the roll this time").

I think you asked the wrong question. Instead of asking " Should short rest be limited?" I would rather say " Should resting be limited?". In that case I provided the answer above. I hope we agree for the most part.
As far as Larian goes they seem to do it more or less this way.....only they aren't implementing the long rest limitations even for the biggest battles. Instead they implement " very big battles" as a culminating ressource management test.


Example:
Goblin camp assault or Druid Grove assault should be 100% a case of no long rest until we get rid of X,Y,Z[We need to open the gate, get our soldiers in and seize control of the main druid lair]. If you leave the battle vicinity prior to accomplishing the final goal you could be issued a warning and if you make the explicit choice to leave the battle should default to a pre-defined end and the player should face the consequences of his actions. Wheter positive or negative is a matter of personal preference of the quest designer.
Such a fight would be the moment to use the items you found + scrolls to overcome potential failed rolls on spells or defensive rolls. A success should have extra flavor. Even if only partial( player opens the gate, get Minthara's troops in the Druid grove but gets rekt so badly he decides to leave the battle and long rest. As he comes back Minthara is salty but despite her losses you still got her in and she can't deny it.

Voila voila.


Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
GM4Him #814955 14/05/22 08:54 AM
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A short rest should just heal your team to 100%.
This would make it really make sense to click this button instead of using the long rest.
The current amount of healing is sadly low.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
A short rest should just heal your team to 100%.
This would make it really make sense to click this button instead of using the long rest.
The current amount of healing is sadly low.

With hit dices the players could choose to be fully healed or not. A button to be 100% healed without any other mechanic would not make sense AT ALL...

Last edited by Maximuuus; 14/05/22 11:53 AM.
GM4Him #814971 14/05/22 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
A short rest should just heal your team to 100%.
This would make it really make sense to click this button instead of using the long rest.
The current amount of healing is sadly low.

With hit dices the players could choose to be fully healed or not. A button to be 100% healed without any other mechanic would not make sense AT ALL...

Why not? The arguments like "it's not how RAW works" is useless. If you might as well use a long rest to heal your hp then why waste time and use a short rest.
Changing the short rest would make it a profitable button, it is not always worth wasting time on a long rest, especially if you do not need to replenish resources apart from hp.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
A short rest should just heal your team to 100%.
This would make it really make sense to click this button instead of using the long rest.
The current amount of healing is sadly low.

With hit dices the players could choose to be fully healed or not. A button to be 100% healed without any other mechanic would not make sense AT ALL...

Why not? The arguments like "it's not how RAW works" is useless. If you might as well use a long rest to heal your hp then why waste time and use a short rest.
Changing the short rest would make it a profitable button, it is not always worth wasting time on a long rest, especially if you do not need to replenish resources apart from hp.

It's not about RAW or not, it's just that a button to heal yourself is a stupid and uninterresting mechanic gameplay-wise.

Healing cost some ressources in some games (i.e potions to manage), have some requirement in others (i.e healing spots to find) and is free in other (i.e auto replenish after combats).

Short rest is neither free, neither a ressource to manage. Being able to be fully healed faster twice (short rests) before being able to be fully healed a bit slower (long rest) doesn't make any sense gameplay-wise, as you said in other words.

RAW suggest something else. You may like it or not but it make sense gameplay-wise. I agree that the system as is in BG3 doesn't.
That's why adding hit dices (a ressource to manage) eventually with an "auto roll" option for Icelyn and Ragnarok would be very good imo.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 14/05/22 08:15 PM.
GM4Him #814980 14/05/22 05:05 PM
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One of the problems out here is that people kinda keep separating Long and Short Rest mechanics as if they are separate issues. They are 1 issue.

Bottom line is, for Short Rest to even be valuable, Long Rest needs to be discouraged and Short Rest promoted. As is, there is no meaning in short resting because you can long rest as much as you want without any penalty at all, and the cost is so astronomically low that it hardly limits long rest in any way.

So why bother short resting? There is literally no value in it.

Last edited by GM4Him; 14/05/22 06:04 PM.
GM4Him #814984 15/05/22 12:18 AM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
One of the problems out here is that people kinda keep separating Long and Short Rest mechanics as if they are separate issues. They are 1 issue.

Bottom line is, for Short Rest to even be valuable, Long Rest needs to be discouraged and Short Rest promoted. As is, there is no meaning in short resting because you can long rest as much as you want without any penalty at all, and the cost is so astronomically low that it hardly limits long rest in any way.

So why bother short resting? There is literally no value in it.

There could be meaning to short rest if long rest is forbidden under certain circumstances. To make the entire game revolve around long term ressource management would mean to build the entire map differently after me. Just leave it as it is , make some " management challenges" here and there for those who enjoy it and problem solved after me. Best option they have UNLESS Larian is planning a drastically different game to what EA is currently showing us. I doubt it though.


Alt+ left click in the inventory on an item while the camp stash is opened transfers the item there. Make it a reality.
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