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member
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member
Joined: Jun 2019
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"Former"? More like "brainwashed". If the theory is true, this isn't the first time a D&D character was converted from Selune to Shar against their will. The brother of Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition companion Rasaad, the Sun Soul monk is the most recent one.
Last edited by BladeDancer; 28/04/22 05:07 AM.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: May 2019
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From some of shadows datamined stuff we know she. [ doesn't even hear shar when she prayes at night the whole thing is just brainwashing. Question is what is giving her her cleric like abilities then. The box? Divine soul sorcerer blood? Who knows. But the whole shar worship thing is pure fabrication. Hmmm. This is interesting, I will admit (the part under cover). I had not heard of this before. I certainly hope she will get redemption arc ...
But also corruption arc, where she will be like "screw Selune i was Sharite last *XY* years and it worked well for me!" +1 this is akin to like arueshalae in pathfinder. it'll be great shadowheart having a redemption path. You can't be redeemed if you were never evil to begin with... You have to be, if you committed evil acts while under your indoctrination. Your having been indoctrinated does not even in the slightest excuse you of responsibility for your actions while under that indoctrination. I honestly hope she is evil and she's only nice because she's messing with you. THAT would be so freaking cool and I'd actually respect her as a character more if she was actually, genuinely a Sharran priestess who was putting on an act the entire time. Also an interesting alternative, one that seems more plausible to me because right from the beginning I've been voicing my view that I don't buy that she is a good person forced into the dark side.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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From some of shadows datamined stuff we know she. [ doesn't even hear shar when she prayes at night the whole thing is just brainwashing. Question is what is giving her her cleric like abilities then. The box? Divine soul sorcerer blood? Who knows. But the whole shar worship thing is pure fabrication. Hmmm. This is interesting, I will admit (the part under cover). I had not heard of this before. I certainly hope she will get redemption arc ...
But also corruption arc, where she will be like "screw Selune i was Sharite last *XY* years and it worked well for me!" +1 this is akin to like arueshalae in pathfinder. it'll be great shadowheart having a redemption path. You can't be redeemed if you were never evil to begin with... You have to be, if you committed evil acts while under your indoctrination. Your having been indoctrinated does not even in the slightest excuse you of responsibility for your actions while under that indoctrination. I honestly hope she is evil and she's only nice because she's messing with you. THAT would be so freaking cool and I'd actually respect her as a character more if she was actually, genuinely a Sharran priestess who was putting on an act the entire time. Also an interesting alternative, one that seems more plausible to me because right from the beginning I've been voicing my view that I don't buy that she is a good person forced into the dark side. From some of the datmine stuff we find out Shadowheart goes directly from getting brainwashed to the suicide mission
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2017
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If she is like the Christian "Satan" (she is not from her description), then her worshippers should be an extremely tiny amount of people Despite the fact that discusions about real religion are forbidden here ... I feel strong urge to say: "You would be surprised ..." Even tho it would most likely not be that kind of "Satanists" you probably know.  In what aspect and why are people worshipping? There is as many reason as there are worshippers ... People who have been wronged or just think so. People who lost everything and came to the conclusion that their gods had abandoned them. People who expected her sister Selune to improve their lives without having to do anything, and it didn't happen, so they started supporting her on purpose. Those and many others.  Forgotten Realms is in a way a terribly dangerous and scary place for anyone who isn't exactly a powerful hero at level 10+. : D And unlike our world, where one (very strong) religion ruled in certain regions ... all the people who live there have and have to deal with those problems to their choice. Either they can worship good gods and go one way ... Or they become bitter, they start to hate everyone and everything, and when they can't go well anymore, at least they make the lives of the others bitter. : D If you wanted an example from our world ... I would recommend Hinduism. There are gods TOOOOOOOO MANY than to name them all ... but far from all of them are downright good (or bad as the matter of fact). Among the better known is Shiva the destroyer ... while we in Europe would have a hard time understanding why anyone would worship a god whose purpose is to destroy the universe, in India he receives great respect, because in their faith destruction is simply part of the cycle of existence. (This description is, of course, terribly simplified ... but it could serve as an example.) There are much less "satanists" around than media will make you believe. And please don't argue with personal experiences in the field of social science. The question remains, why are Shar or other evil gods worshipped? They offer nothing special to their followers what not other better gods can give, and what the baddies offer generally is destruction, period. For example why would you sacrifice your child to a god (like in the case of Baal-Hammon as worshipped in Carthage) if all he/she wants in the end is destruction? In the human context really bad gods like Shar simply don't exist. The gods of DnD (and admittedly quite often other fantasy universes) often appear to me as if created by a group of 20 year olds during lunch break. Shiva for example is a totally different kind of god than Shar. But here is not the place to discuss such things. So I let it be (you won a discussion, great, isn't it?) and live with Shar et al.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Oct 2020
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If she is like the Christian "Satan" (she is not from her description), then her worshippers should be an extremely tiny amount of people Despite the fact that discusions about real religion are forbidden here ... I feel strong urge to say: "You would be surprised ..." Even tho it would most likely not be that kind of "Satanists" you probably know. In what aspect and why are people worshipping? There is as many reason as there are worshippers ... People who have been wronged or just think so. People who lost everything and came to the conclusion that their gods had abandoned them. People who expected her sister Selune to improve their lives without having to do anything, and it didn't happen, so they started supporting her on purpose. Those and many others. Forgotten Realms is in a way a terribly dangerous and scary place for anyone who isn't exactly a powerful hero at level 10+. : D And unlike our world, where one (very strong) religion ruled in certain regions ... all the people who live there have and have to deal with those problems to their choice. Either they can worship good gods and go one way ... Or they become bitter, they start to hate everyone and everything, and when they can't go well anymore, at least they make the lives of the others bitter. : D If you wanted an example from our world ... I would recommend Hinduism. There are gods TOOOOOOOO MANY than to name them all ... but far from all of them are downright good (or bad as the matter of fact). Among the better known is Shiva the destroyer ... while we in Europe would have a hard time understanding why anyone would worship a god whose purpose is to destroy the universe, in India he receives great respect, because in their faith destruction is simply part of the cycle of existence. (This description is, of course, terribly simplified ... but it could serve as an example.) There are much less "satanists" around than media will make you believe. And please don't argue with personal experiences in the field of social science. The question remains, why are Shar or other evil gods worshipped? They offer nothing special to their followers what not other better gods can give, and what the baddies offer generally is destruction, period. For example why would you sacrifice your child to a god (like in the case of Baal-Hammon as worshipped in Carthage) if all he/she wants in the end is destruction? In the human context really bad gods like Shar simply don't exist. The gods of DnD (and admittedly quite often other fantasy universes) often appear to me as if created by a group of 20 year olds during lunch break. Shiva for example is a totally different kind of god than Shar. But here is not the place to discuss such things. So I let it be (you won a discussion, great, isn't it?) and live with Shar et al. Shar relies heavily on brainwashing to gain her clergy iirc in addition to those overcome by loss.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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There are much less "satanists" around than media will make you believe. Well ... yes, but actualy no. I mean i dont argue about that statement ... what i was trying to say is that there exists many "satanists" out there, that those "media" would most likely not even concider being a "satanist" ... since they dont fit "common description".  That is problem with sects ... They often dont feel any urge to stick with deffinitions society gives them. :P They offer nothing special to their followers what not other better gods can give, and what the baddies offer generally is destruction, period. Thats not true ... In tabletop your character needs to please their deity with their actions, otherwise (if you are Cleric, or Paladin) you can easily loose your powers, once you loose your deity favour ... how would you like to play some egomaniacal, sadistic tyrant ... as a cleric ... if you would not have any Evil deity to give your their power? Sure, Evil deities are often worshipped by mad degenerates with twisted priorities ... but quite honestly, so what? Its true that "regular person" will most likely not choose Shar over Selune ... But that is exactly it ... worshippers or Shar are rarely "regular". You cant imagine it as waking up in the morning, killing some babies to worship my Goddess, then eat breakfast, go to work, later meet my neighbor at barbecue ... at evening burn his house, to please my Goddess ... shower and go to sleep. Just regular day, nothing special.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings.  Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
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Do I need to point out the elephant in the room?
Evil is (typically) easy; Good is (typically) hard. Giving into fear, jealousy, hatred, greed, prejudice, et cetera, requires less effort than making consistent efforts to check these darker thoughts and then rise above them. The fact that a priest of an Evil god receives potent spells/various divine gifts by channeling their base emotions through worship is incentive enough to take a chance.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
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If she is like the Christian "Satan" (she is not from her description), then her worshippers should be an extremely tiny amount of people Despite the fact that discusions about real religion are forbidden here ... I feel strong urge to say: "You would be surprised ..." Even tho it would most likely not be that kind of "Satanists" you probably know. In what aspect and why are people worshipping? There is as many reason as there are worshippers ... People who have been wronged or just think so. People who lost everything and came to the conclusion that their gods had abandoned them. People who expected her sister Selune to improve their lives without having to do anything, and it didn't happen, so they started supporting her on purpose. Those and many others. Forgotten Realms is in a way a terribly dangerous and scary place for anyone who isn't exactly a powerful hero at level 10+. : D And unlike our world, where one (very strong) religion ruled in certain regions ... all the people who live there have and have to deal with those problems to their choice. Either they can worship good gods and go one way ... Or they become bitter, they start to hate everyone and everything, and when they can't go well anymore, at least they make the lives of the others bitter. : D If you wanted an example from our world ... I would recommend Hinduism. There are gods TOOOOOOOO MANY than to name them all ... but far from all of them are downright good (or bad as the matter of fact). Among the better known is Shiva the destroyer ... while we in Europe would have a hard time understanding why anyone would worship a god whose purpose is to destroy the universe, in India he receives great respect, because in their faith destruction is simply part of the cycle of existence. (This description is, of course, terribly simplified ... but it could serve as an example.) There are much less "satanists" around than media will make you believe. And please don't argue with personal experiences in the field of social science. The question remains, why are Shar or other evil gods worshipped? They offer nothing special to their followers what not other better gods can give, and what the baddies offer generally is destruction, period. For example why would you sacrifice your child to a god (like in the case of Baal-Hammon as worshipped in Carthage) if all he/she wants in the end is destruction? In the human context really bad gods like Shar simply don't exist. The gods of DnD (and admittedly quite often other fantasy universes) often appear to me as if created by a group of 20 year olds during lunch break. Shiva for example is a totally different kind of god than Shar. But here is not the place to discuss such things. So I let it be (you won a discussion, great, isn't it?) and live with Shar et al. Um... History. People - lots of people - in the ancient days, worshipped evil gods that demanded virgin and child sacrifices and such. History is full of people worshipping gods that promoted evil actions and deeds; gods of war and violence and bloodshed and torture and lying and so forth. And it's a game. So naturally things are magnified. It's boring if there aren't tons of evil cultists and monsters and such.
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addict
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addict
Joined: Nov 2020
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there exists many "satanists" out there, that those "media" would most likely not even concider being a "satanist" ... since they dont fit "common description". I literally put satanist down on my last federal census, and follow the tenets of the Satanic Temple, but I doubt that most people, let alone commercial media companies, would identify me as a satanist, because most people have a lot of assumptions wrapped up in that label. Meanwhile, I volunteered at a christian-run charity shop for years and only had one single person do a double-take at my definitely not christian religious jewelry.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2020
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The question remains, why are Shar or other evil gods worshipped? They offer nothing special to their followers what not other better gods can give, and what the baddies offer generally is destruction, period. For example why would you sacrifice your child to a god (like in the case of Baal-Hammon as worshipped in Carthage) if all he/she wants in the end is destruction? In the human context really bad gods like Shar simply don't exist. The gods of DnD (and admittedly quite often other fantasy universes) often appear to me as if created by a group of 20 year olds during lunch break. Shiva for example is a totally different kind of god than Shar. But here is not the place to discuss such things. So I let it be (you won a discussion, great, isn't it?) and live with Shar et al. Um... History. People - lots of people - in the ancient days, worshipped evil gods that demanded virgin and child sacrifices and such. History is full of people worshipping gods that promoted evil actions and deeds; gods of war and violence and bloodshed and torture and lying and so forth. And it's a game. So naturally things are magnified. It's boring if there aren't tons of evil cultists and monsters and such. For these things in our world, you have to look at them as if you were a person who lived during those times. Stuff like that was not evil then, it was just how things were. Much of history is written by people who have particular biases and opinions of their own, and a lot of the gods were converted into demons or something evil later on to try and discourage their worship. Also, the gods of our world often had a dual nature, in games they are often simplified a bit more. A lot of the FR deities are based on a particular version of ones in our world but they are still quite a bit less complicated, probably because they have to fit into alignments. As for why evil game deities are worshipped or at least honoured in some way, there are many reasons people could have. Power being one of course, but someone who has lost everything could easily turn to a god who promises revenge or one who claims to ease the pain of loss. Fear too can be a strong motivator (sailors making offerings to Umberlee for instance.)
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
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For these things in our world, you have to look at them as if you were a person who lived during those times. Stuff like that was not evil then, it was just how things were. Much of history is written by people who have particular biases and opinions of their own, and a lot of the gods were converted into demons or something evil later on to try and discourage their worship. Also, the gods of our world often had a dual nature, in games they are often simplified a bit more. A lot of the FR deities are based on a particular version of ones in our world but they are still quite a bit less complicated, probably because they have to fit into alignments. As for why evil game deities are worshipped or at least honoured in some way, there are many reasons people could have. Power being one of course, but someone who has lost everything could easily turn to a god who promises revenge or one who claims to ease the pain of loss. Fear too can be a strong motivator (sailors making offerings to Umberlee for instance.) In history, people sacrificed children in fires and murdered virgins on altars. For their deities, they raped and abused others and killed them. Common people worshipped them out of fear or coercion, and those who instituted the religions did so to create said fear and coercion. It was to control people as well as because they simply enjoyed being psychos. They got their kicks out of hurting others. My point is that the same is true for FR. It's no different. People worship evil deities either because they are seeking power, they're duped into believing it's good, or they're coerced through fear or violence. Wasn't the question something like "why would anyone worship an evil god?". So my answer was, "History. It happened. Lots of people worshipped evil gods for many reasons throughout history. Why would FR be any different?". I also believe that it was presented as if WotC sat around making up these gods as if something similar never existed in the real world. So I was pointing out that gods like Shar did, in fact, exist in real human history.
Last edited by GM4Him; 30/04/22 07:46 AM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2020
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Much of the time the sacrificing was done for things like warding away storms and disease. Nothing psycho about that in the eyes of our ancestors, many of them treated the sacrifices very well even. Nowadays we have a different view of things of course, but it doesn't make our ancestors evil. Obviously was a bit more violent in most cultures for sacrificing a conquered enemy. I definitely agree with you that religions and people trying to be powerful try to control people with coercion and fear, and this continues today. At least sacrifices aren't usually a thing nowadays.
I wasn't trying to argue with you about the FR similarities, although they made the deities much simpler than the ones in our world. Most of ours had/have good and bad tendencies, some of them very childish and petty. Probably should have separated the quotes to be a bit clearer.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
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Much of the time the sacrificing was done for things like warding away storms and disease. Nothing psycho about that in the eyes of our ancestors, many of them treated the sacrifices very well even. Nowadays we have a different view of things of course, but it doesn't make our ancestors evil. Obviously was a bit more violent in most cultures for sacrificing a conquered enemy. I definitely agree with you that religions and people trying to be powerful try to control people with coercion and fear, and this continues today. At least sacrifices aren't usually a thing nowadays.
I wasn't trying to argue with you about the FR similarities, although they made the deities much simpler than the ones in our world. Most of ours had/have good and bad tendencies, some of them very childish and petty. Probably should have separated the quotes to be a bit clearer. We will have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid. I don't care what spin ya put on it, they threw children into fires and murdered people to please their gods. That's psycho. That's evil. Today, if some guy was to kill his children to appease his deity, or someone else's children, cutting them into pieces or throwing them into fires or both, there wouldn't be a whole lot of people who would argue. They'd all agree, that guy was nuts and downright evil. Here. I'll even pick on Christians since I am one. Inquisition. Evil. Downright sick, twisted, misguided, totally against the true tenets of the faith, and it was flat out evil. They put a righteous spin on it, but that did not in any way make it right.
Last edited by GM4Him; 30/04/22 12:45 PM.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
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They weren't evil; they were misunderstood.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Sep 2020
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We will have to agree to disagree, I'm afraid. I don't care what spin ya put on it, they threw children into fires and murdered people to please their gods. That's psycho. That's evil. Today, if some guy was to kill his children to appease his deity, or someone else's children, cutting them into pieces or throwing them into fires or both, there wouldn't be a whole lot of people who would argue. They'd all agree, that guy was nuts and downright evil.
Here. I'll even pick on Christians since I am one. Inquisition. Evil. Downright sick, twisted, misguided, totally against the true tenets of the faith, and it was flat out evil. They put a righteous spin on it, but that did not in any way make it right. We are actually agreeing about modern times. Today if that happened, it would be considered evil because we know not that stuff is not necessary. Considering our ancestors evil would be like humans several hundred years in the future when disease is eradicated and immortality is normal (yeah right, but let's pretend for a moment humans aren't destroying everything) calling us evil for letting people suffer and die. We don't know any better. They weren't evil; they were misunderstood. Well I would hope future humans would call us misunderstood rather than evil for not knowing how to get rid of disease and death. :P
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
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Today if that happened, it would be considered evil because we know not that stuff is not necessary. Generally, sacrificing someone else for ones benefit is what I would consider an act of evil, no matter if it works or not.
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apprentice
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apprentice
Joined: Mar 2021
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Problem is that "evil" doesn't exist, it's a religious/story label you should never use in the real world. You can say something is wrong, but labeling it evil literally means you are no better than the people you call evil and will most likely gladly "sacrifice" them for being evil. It's a label used to dehumanize another being in order to, in the name of good, do bad things to them.
No matter the action the person performing them will always have a "good" reason for them, the human mind can't function if it's being "evil".
You can't simply say that the person want power, that is not how the human mind work, the person has to want to be good in there mind and that requires power, so you think that sacrificing people makes a better world, in order to sacrifice people.
This is the fundamental problem with "fantasy" gods, they are build on good and evil being real. They have gotten better at it in reason years, but they still use the trophy evil to justify killing a lot of creatures in their world. The non evil evil races we encounter is progress away from the awful "kill them they are evil" mindset of D&D.
I can slaughter goblin kids because they are an evil race, by that logic I should be a hero by being a murderhobo, because you can easily label everyone "evil".
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
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This thread is likely going to get shut down by the moderators soon if we don't move on. We've been down this road before.
It's probably best to get back on topic and let this thing go.
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old hand
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old hand
Joined: Jul 2021
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This is the fundamental problem with "fantasy" gods, they are build on good and evil being real. They have gotten better at it in reason years, but they still use the trophy evil to justify killing a lot of creatures in their world. The non evil evil races we encounter is progress away from the awful "kill them they are evil" mindset of D&D. Excuse me...there is nothing wrong with escapism. I firmly reject this notion that fiction has to only feature shades of grey when it comes to morality.
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veteran
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veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
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Generally, sacrificing someone else for ones benefit is what I would consider an act of evil, no matter if it works or not. Does that include someone else happiness? In that case we all are evil around here.
I still dont understand why cant we change Race for our hirelings. Lets us play Githyanki as racist as they trully are!
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