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My issue with the whole RTwP and TB thing is the fact that this is a game that is trying (And ho boy is it) to be a 5e game.
5e is, in my opinion impossible to turn into a RTwP video game. You have so many context sensitive abilities and actions that trying to convert them all into Real Time would either require them to all be gutted, changed to be unrecognizable, or straight up removed.
I don't see how you can have Bonus Actions in RTwP or even the proper reactions that 5e requires. (Smite, Counterspell, Class abilities, etc.)

Originally Posted by Zefhyr
My memories from BG3 ?

Of course there was some great times and nice fights (although...) but most of them wasn't really worth remembering or not in the good way.

" I shoved him, so he came to me, so I shoved him, so he came to me, so I shoved him, so he died."
and its variation
" He shoved me, I shoved him, He shoved me, I shoved him."
or this one
" He shoved me, so I died"
but, ok it's not all about shove (or barrel...) there are all this fights...
" Ho a minotaur ! a fun fight! No, wait, I'm dead."
" Ho, two red hat ! We are 4 guy surviving intense crash, should be fine. Ho wait, they rape me, let me try again.... I just climb to the higher place of this witch's place and shove and send arrows."
Better !
I fight minthara ! it was like....
"she killed my friend. I made him stand up. She killed him again. I made him stand up again. Ho ! She killed him again! No problem... I'm gonna make him stand again. But wait... Whaaat is she doiiiiiiing!!! killing him again !!! No probelm, I made him stand again ! And I will win cause I have this girl dealing 1-2 damages from the back. Just need to be patient, 30 minutes shoudl be enough.
I fights somes duergars too, really funny.
"Hello boss, you wanna fight ? What ? you have people popping from everywhere in the high ? Ho... and they shove half of my team dead in one round ?
Hmmmmm.... let's reload it.
I placed my team, I tried, I reloaded and reloaded until... I win the shove contest being the first doing it !
What a wonderful fight. All this magics, this skills, this tricks, just to end up with a lame "shove".

I feel sorry because I enjoyed DD and DD2, I enjoyed lot of games in TB, I'm actually enjoying Expedition : Rome TB and I was full of hope to enjoy BG3 TB when I tried it, but what they did ? This is not good job.

This comes back to Larian adding a lot of strange things to 5e in general. Shove being what it is as well as all their explosive barrels. I feel if they would tune back all the exploits it would be more memorable.

I fully admit to never have played BG1/2, as the RTwP never really appealed to me, nor did 2e D&D. (THAC0, Why do I want my stats to be high to have a low or negative number? What is this madness?) That and it was a visual mess when I tried to play Planescape Torment. It was not very clear what was going on in combat.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Pathfinder is also turnbased -> yet P:Km and WotR are RTwP.

Something I haven't seen mentioned (apologies if I missed it) is that P:Km began as a RTwP game; TB was only added later. I'm not sure how much more difficult it'd be to add a RTwP mode onto TB game, but I could imagine it being more difficult.

And yet we are stuck with a crap TB mode in Owlcat's PF games that still doesn't play like pathfinder does.

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Originally Posted by Alealexi
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Pathfinder is also turnbased -> yet P:Km and WotR are RTwP.

Something I haven't seen mentioned (apologies if I missed it) is that P:Km began as a RTwP game; TB was only added later. I'm not sure how much more difficult it'd be to add a RTwP mode onto TB game, but I could imagine it being more difficult.

And yet we are stuck with a crap TB mode in Owlcat's PF games that still doesn't play like pathfinder does.
How don't the TB modes in Owlcat's games play like pathfinder? The vast majority of mechanics seemed to work perfectly fine in TB; maybe the enemy AI wasn't perfect but I wouldn't say that made the mode "crap."

Also, the TB modes are optional - the default (reflecting the way the game is designed to be played) is RtwP. So yes, a lot of the fights can take forever in TB because they're balanced for RtwP. But the option to play in TB enables us to make precise tactical actions against hard enemies, then switch to RtwP for easy encounters, which is very nice imo.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
But the option to play in TB enables us to make precise tactical actions against hard enemies, then switch to RtwP for easy encounters, which is very nice imo.

He speaks the truth !

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Takes a bite of the steak...chew, chew, chew...one second please.

Sip, wipes mouth...chew, chew, chew.

Mmmm....chew, chew, chew...pause...swallow.

I'm sorry, "What was that?".

Oh yes...turn based is the best thing to happen to D&D since SSI.


Now perhaps even more stealthy investigation and puzzles outside of combat at full speed (or not...you missed something!).

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Turn base needs a major speed boost for <minor> encounters OR if Larian implements <lore friendly interesting and unique random world battles based on areas, time of day etc...> aka : random encounters. To flesh out that incredibly static time stopped world they created (borderline copy pasted from DOS2...).

It feels like pre-game events Irenicus (BG2) created this <pocket plane> world Faerun within Faerun for his amusement and we are his prisoners in this time stopped artificial world (BG3) trying to harness and understand the powers of the mindflayers...

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 12/05/22 11:56 PM.
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WHOA,WHOA there, this thread is NOT about Unreal Engine 5.x or about RTwP, don't hijack my thread!

This discussion is about Larian Studios expanding their horizons with the next game they choose to make!
Meaning, should they make a open world RPG or even a Open World RPG with at worst, TB fights.
Get out of this "isometric" lane that they have been in since D:OS 1.

As I said two pages ago, it may be a risk, it may be that they don't want to take any RISK, just do the same style of game play, I don't know but it benefits us gamer's to have Developers take risks.

What kind of game should they try and get, continue with their own IP (DOS world) or acquire something new.
Seems like WoTC are having some licensing issues atm, this wont effect BG3 but it may if Larian tries to do another game based on their IP.

And Unreal Engine only comes to mind is if they do decide to do something different , they probably will need to ditch their current game engine and they are not big enough/financially to develop their own engine (no way).

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@hitmac lol I think you are in a wrong thread. Who is hijacking now?

Honestly, if Larian would do their RTwP, like they do the exploration it would be pretty unplayable. You would press pause, and not everyone would stop moving, because of “reasons” :hihi:

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I love the combat in BG3. It actually FEELS like a D&D session with friends. It's a nice touch, and it's really fun. I played the first two Baldur's Gate games when I was a teenager in the late 90s and early 2000s, and I absolutely adore them. However, change can be a very good thing. This is a change that I really like and I wouldn't want Larian to waste any time or resources on a RTWP feature.

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Originally Posted by hotmac
WHOA,WHOA there, this thread is NOT about Unreal Engine 5.x or about RTwP, don't hijack my thread!

This discussion is about Larian Studios expanding their horizons with the next game they choose to make!
Meaning, should they make a open world RPG or even a Open World RPG with at worst, TB fights.
Get out of this "isometric" lane that they have been in since D:OS 1.

As I said two pages ago, it may be a risk, it may be that they don't want to take any RISK, just do the same style of game play, I don't know but it benefits us gamer's to have Developers take risks.

What kind of game should they try and get, continue with their own IP (DOS world) or acquire something new.
Seems like WoTC are having some licensing issues atm, this wont effect BG3 but it may if Larian tries to do another game based on their IP.

And Unreal Engine only comes to mind is if they do decide to do something different , they probably will need to ditch their current game engine and they are not big enough/financially to develop their own engine (no way).
Wrong thread there buddy


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Originally Posted by Wormerine
@hitmac lol I think you are in a wrong thread. Who is hijacking now?

Honestly, if Larian would do their RTwP, like they do the exploration it would be pretty unplayable. You would press pause, and not everyone would stop moving, because of “reasons” :hihi:

My apologies!

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Originally Posted by Zefhyr
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Sure. D&D games can work perfectly well as RtwP (though I personally dislike that gameplay style). Bg1&2, Pathfinder games, etc are all extremely successful examples, so it's clearly not impossible.

For Larian specifically though, at this moment in their company, I'd say it was inevitable that they'd make BG3 a TB game. If anyone is to blame for BG3 being TB, it's WotC for choosing Larian.
But obviously Larian's current implementation of D&D 5e has a lot of problems, problems which were neither inevitable or for the best. And for that we can definitely blame Larian.

I totally agree !

From my point of view, Obsidian would have been a clever choice since PoE already feel a little like BG.

Blackheifer, I can't get how you play BG 1and especially 2 until the end if you just let your party rush in ?
You didn't used spell ? You never dissipate magic defenses of a lich or extra wizard ?
I can't imagine how someone could won the game without thinking some fights.
Saying BG1 and 2 was like looking at a fight of orcs and soldiers in warcraft 3 is not serious.

You had to think carefully where and when used some spells. stun people, slow some others, haste yours, protect them, etc etc.
There was a lot of spells and skills.

But, please, tell me how you beat the demogorgo for example. I'll be glad to learn it.

PS: Drizz't was known to be a sort of easter egg and funny (still hard) to fight. Speaking abotu cheesy fight in BG 1 and 2 but playing BG3.... ha ha ?

Let me clear something up, I simply didn't find Bg1 or 2 challenging in any way. I did all of those things, and I avoided taking advantage of the poor RTWP system and its shortcomings. I turned off the AI, I set up maneuvers, and summons, and spells and so forth but ultimately the combat was a "thing to get through" that didn't provide any real challenge.

BG3 on the other hand is a much harder game, with a steep learning curve. It has more complex systems and allows for strategic encounters. At close to 1,800 hours all-told I have my own Discord dedicated to it with some of the best players and have trained dozens of new players on the mechanics. It worries me significantly how some gamers are going to learn how to play this game, and I hope Larian allows for a lower difficulty setting to help ease people into it. People who are not detail oriented are going to have a hard time.

However, all of that is incidental to the fact that:

1. Larian has clearly stated their position on TB and RtwP
2. The community has voted with a more than comfortable majority supporting JUST TB.


And yet these discussions keep happening. It seems an inability to accept the results and move on - preferably to other games that support what you guys are looking for. I would say its a kind of madness organized around the idea of "I want to make sure everyone knows how much I hate this game, so I am not going to move on". Therapy can help, or maybe Ayuasca.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
1. Larian has clearly stated their position on TB and RtwP
2. The community has voted with a more than comfortable majority supporting JUST TB.


And yet these discussions keep happening. It seems an inability to accept the results and move on.

To be fair, I think this thread was accidentally necro-ed and previously hadn’t been updated since May last year, which also seems to be the last time someone posted in the RtwP mega thread. I’m sure that the topic has reared its head on more than one occasion since, but it feels like most people have indeed accepted the situation and moved on.

(I also find BG3 combat much more interesting and strategic than that of the previous BG games, btw.)


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Let me clear something up, I simply didn't find Bg1 or 2 challenging in any way. I did all of those things, and I avoided taking advantage of the poor RTWP system and its shortcomings. I turned off the AI, I set up maneuvers, and summons, and spells and so forth but ultimately the combat was a "thing to get through" that didn't provide any real challenge.
I agree - especially compared to something like Pathfinder games, BG1&2 were a cake walk. 2e was also not very complex. Yes there were a lot of spells, but really that's all that was to it. Out of party of 6 maybe 2-3 characters required attention. I have managed to beat the game with little to no understanding of underying mechanics - and yeah, with that some fights took quite a bit of trial and error - some cheese, some experimentiation and some RNG luck. If one has a decent grasp on the mechanics though, BG1&2 become rather straightforward.

I definitely see more potential in BG3 combat, as long as they get rid of the "cheese" - for not it is a mixed bag for me. Some encounters I enjoy, other annoy me, and my enjoyment is always throttled by the knowledge that I can steam roll through any encounter if I stop handicapping myself.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Let me clear something up, I simply didn't find Bg1 or 2 challenging in any way. I did all of those things, and I avoided taking advantage of the poor RTWP system and its shortcomings. I turned off the AI, I set up maneuvers, and summons, and spells and so forth but ultimately the combat was a "thing to get through" that didn't provide any real challenge.
I agree - especially compared to something like Pathfinder games, BG1&2 were a cake walk. 2e was also not very complex. Yes there were a lot of spells, but really that's all that was to it. Out of party of 6 maybe 2-3 characters required attention. I have managed to beat the game with little to no understanding of underying mechanics - and yeah, with that some fights took quite a bit of trial and error - some cheese, some experimentiation and some RNG luck. If one has a decent grasp on the mechanics though, BG1&2 become rather straightforward.

I definitely see more potential in BG3 combat, as long as they get rid of the "cheese" - for not it is a mixed bag for me. Some encounters I enjoy, other annoy me, and my enjoyment is always throttled by the knowledge that I can steam roll through any encounter if I stop handicapping myself.
Seems to me like a strawman to be comparing the old BG games to something being made today. The more appropriate comparisons would be the RTwP combat of Pathfinder to the TB combat of BG3. And for me, although I am yet to play BG3 and only have streams of others' games as my reference, the RTwP combat of the Pathfinder games is waaaaaaaaay better than BG3. Now, I do think there is way too much combat in WotR at the expense of other aspects of a cRPG, but that's a separate issue. The combat itself of WotR, in RTwP, is just soooooo awesomely fun, interesting, and challenging, compared with the utterly boring and tedious combat of BG3.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Seems to me like a strawman to be comparing the old BG games to something being made today. The more appropriate comparisons would be the RTwP combat of Pathfinder to the TB combat of BG3.
I am not sure what you mean by that - the biggest difference between 2000s and now is eyecandy, and in that regards Pathfinder doesn't present itself that much better than BG1&2. Combat wise the games aren't actually that different. I can't really think of anything Pathfinder had, that BG1&2 didn't (more complex ruleset of course, but I don't think that's what we are discussing).

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Seems to me like a strawman to be comparing the old BG games to something being made today. The more appropriate comparisons would be the RTwP combat of Pathfinder to the TB combat of BG3.
I am not sure what you mean by that - the biggest difference between 2000s and now is eyecandy, and in that regards Pathfinder doesn't present itself that much better than BG1&2. Combat wise the games aren't actually that different. I can't really think of anything Pathfinder had, that BG1&2 didn't (more complex ruleset of course, but I don't think that's what we are discussing).
Well for me it is a big part (though perhaps not all of it). I hated 2e and considered it to be horribly boring and simplistic in every way, including of course combat. By contrast I love 3.5e and consider 3.5e combat to be both challenging and fun at the same time. But it's not just that. Having it be RT(wP) makes it so very dynamic, realistic, and way more challenging than TB combat. This is why combat in WotR is truly a joy for me, so long as I'm not fighting through a million demons in an entire city.

In fact, if there is just one thing Larian could do to make BG3 a significantly better and more fun game for me, it would be if they gave me an auto-resolve option for all combats. A lesser but still acceptable alternative would be to allow me to change the difficulty settings anytime anywhere, and give me a hyper-easy combat difficulty setting, so that I can breeze through all combats quickly and not be bogged down in the tiresome tedium of BG3 combat.

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Personally I like turn based only. I am happy if it stays that way.

However, if it could be added eventually (without delaying the release) so that others might enjoy it, I am fine with that. I wouldn't use it, but the more people who like and enjoy the game, the better.

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Not trying to be dismissive of people who disagree with my position, but it really seems like with a sample of almost 100 people, a supermajority supports turn-based only. A fifth of players want to see RTwP at some point. That's not a lot. Now, that may not be representative of the whole player population (I actually think it would be higher for turn-based for casual Larian fans), but it is convincing for me.

A big complaint I saw for the Pathfinder turn-based mode is that long battles become REALLY long and REALLY boring. A game built around RTwP can be fundamentally different in structure from a game built for turn-based.


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Originally Posted by Zefhyr
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
But the option to play in TB enables us to make precise tactical actions against hard enemies, then switch to RtwP for easy encounters, which is very nice imo.

He speaks the truth !
He does.
But I think Larian doesn't want easy encounters. In an ideal turn-based game, every combat encounter should require enough thought and strategizing to warrant the sole use of turn-based.

So either Larian ups the difficulty of the encounters or gives RTwP for easy encounters? I'd prefer bigger, harder encounters.


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