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GM4Him #814989 15/05/22 03:13 AM
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What good is short rest at all? Just cut it from the game if you don't limit long rest at all.

Why short rest when you can:

1. literally long rest after every fight and regain ALL your special abilities, health, spell slots, etc. instead of only some health and no spell slots.
2. You get more opportunities to have companion dialogue with long rest.
3. There is nothing stopping you from long rest. NOTHING. No time limits, no penalties, random encounters, NOTHING.
4. Switch companions at camp during long rests.
5. Store stuff at camp during long rests.

So tell me, what benefit is there at all in short resting? Seriously. In current state, what is the point?

The only reason short rest exists in BG3 is because it is a 5e rule. There is literally no other benefit.

So either give short rest meaning or cut it completely from the game. That's what I say.

GM4Him #815118 16/05/22 05:23 PM
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I choose unlimited because there is no limit to how many short rests you can take in 5e but you just won't heal when you run out of hit dice.

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Originally Posted by Alealexi
I choose unlimited because there is no limit to how many short rests you can take in 5e but you just won't heal when you run out of hit dice.

Ah, but you do have a DM who limits short rests based on scenarios. For example, in Descent into Avernus, I did not allow players to short rest as they were making their way through the lair of the Dead Three except at one point where it made sense that they might pull it off, and even then they risked a random encounter chance that some cultist might happen upon them in their lair while they were resting for an hour.

You have nothing like that in BG3. Nothing.

Likewise, a DM would keep individuals from long resting even though there are no actual long rest limits. In my example for Descent, I also didn't let them long rest until after they were entirely finished with the cultist lair.

Last edited by GM4Him; 17/05/22 02:15 AM.
GM4Him #815141 17/05/22 02:40 AM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Originally Posted by Alealexi
I choose unlimited because there is no limit to how many short rests you can take in 5e but you just won't heal when you run out of hit dice.

Ah, but you do have a DM who limits short rests based on scenarios. For example, in Descent into Avernus, I did not allow players to short rest as they were making their way through the lair of the Dead Three except at one point where it made sense that they might pull it off, and even then they risked a random encounter chance that some cultist might happen upon them in their lair while they were resting for an hour.

You have nothing like that in BG3. Nothing.

Likewise, a DM would keep individuals from long resting even though there are no actual long rest limits. In my example for Descent, I also didn't let them long rest until after they were entirely finished with the cultist lair.


You see, you were a GM and you could adjust campaigns to your group.
I suspect that if any of the fights went very badly, you would either allow the rest or customize the rest of the fights so as not to kill the group.
Well, unless you're one of those GMs who are aiming to kill everyone (but that's not important).
If only someone figured out a way to add GM to the game it would be perfect.
So far, no one has managed to come up with a sensible way to limit the rest that could satisfy most players.
Coming up with something good has been a problem almost always. I don't remember a game where this was actually achieved satisfactorily.
Usually, however, developers prefer to give up and not even try, which in my opinion is sometimes good for the game (POE1 vs POE2)

Last edited by Rhobar121; 17/05/22 02:41 AM.
GM4Him #815148 17/05/22 03:32 AM
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I still think it can be done, but the problem is two-fold. First, there are seemingly too many that are afraid of timed events. Second, Larian is probably afraid to try something liked timed events because it seems many people are resistant to it and they don't want to lose their fans. (Understandably so.)

But I fully believe it could be done well if people would give it a chance. I have a hard time believing that you can't simulate a DM in a lot of ways.

Here's an example of how I think it could be done in BG3:

You crash on beach. Full health. Day 1 starts. Long and Short Rests are locked. Can't do them. You meet SH and explore the area. Intellect devourer fight. DM unlocks Short Rest but Long Rest is locked unless total party spell slot count is less than 25%. It's just you and SH. Let's say combined spell slot total of 4, and you used 2. Larian as DM sets it up so that you could probably survive the next several encounters with that many spell slots and using some Hit Dice to recover HP, especially knowing Astarion and Gale are just around some corners.

Oh, but you bypass Astarion and never meet him. You also run into trouble with the fisherman. If your party has less than 25% Hit Dice and less than 50% HP OR spell slots lower than 25%, long rest unlocks. Because HP was reduced to less than 50% and no more Hit Dice, probably because you didn't add another party member, you need a long rest. The DM, the game, has analyzed that you need a long rest. You will likely not make it if you keep going.

And as far as timed events go, I've given plenty of examples. You take three long rests after learning about the ritual at the grove. Suddenly, on the fourth morning, you are met by a tiefling who tells you the ritual has been delayed. Rath interrupted it, and now he's locked up. You can either rescue him or simply leave him. It's your choice. Consequence is Rath won't help you fight Kagha unless you sneak in and break him out or prove Kagha is bad. Benefit? You get three more days to stop the ritual. After two days, someone else interrupts the ceremony, buying you more time, but now THEY are in trouble. Security in the Grove is also tighter. Tensions are mounting. Benefit? 3 more days to save the grove.

Basically, what would a DM do if players were trying to abuse resting?

A. Not allow it at certain points in the story.
B. Provide soft consequences - ones that don't ruin the main story but might make things a bit more challenging to the players; events that make sense from a story perspective.

They actually did do some of this originally, but I didn't realize it until too late. If you rested immediately, origin characters would heckle you. "Why are we resting? We have tadpoles in our heads."

The problem was, Larian didn't follow through with this. Soft reminders you are resting too much could be dreams with the dream lover. It could be people threatening to leave the party or threatening to take matters into their own hands. I mean, there are SO many ways to do it besides hard limits.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Usually, however, developers prefer to give up and not even try, which in my opinion is sometimes good for the game (POE1 vs POE2)
The key point here is that said developers (hopefully) try to balance their game around not including resting restrictions, often either by making encounters more difficult so that long resting frequently doesn't make the game trivial, or by implementing cooldown-based abilities.

The problem with D&D 5e is that it has 2 types of rests, so the former solution doesn't quite work. So if Larian wants to preserve balance between classes, they either have to implement rest restrictions or make some serious changes to classes so that they're all balanced around long rests. But people would almost certainly rage even harder if Larian changed BG3 combat to cooldown-based.

Originally Posted by Rhobar121
So far, no one has managed to come up with a sensible way to limit the rest that could satisfy most players.
Coming up with something good has been a problem almost always. I don't remember a game where this was actually achieved satisfactorily
I can turn this around and say that it doesn't seem like Larian's solution satisfies most players either, at least going by responses on this forum. Who's to say if Larian's (lack of a solution) is better than any of these hypotheticals? Also, D&D 5e (and its dual-rest system) doesn't have many video game adaptations, so it's not like that many solutions have been attempted. Maybe there's a relatively easy-to-implement restriction that satisfies more people than no restriction.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
So far, no one has managed to come up with a sensible way to limit the rest that could satisfy most players.
Coming up with something good has been a problem almost always. I don't remember a game where this was actually achieved satisfactorily.
Usually, however, developers prefer to give up and not even try, which in my opinion is sometimes good for the game (POE1 vs POE2)
đź‘Ť

GM4Him #815152 17/05/22 05:46 AM
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I just don't get it. If you're playing a legit RPG, the GM would be the one restricting recovery, no matter the rpg.

Star Wars Fantasy Flights had stim packs and such. 5 HP for first use, 4 for second, 3 for third, 2 for fourth and 1 for fifth. After that, GM would limit players by saying, "You haven't reached a good resting location yet," aka a ship, cantina, etc.

In a campaign where you can backtrack to a particular base of operations, the GM will still limit how often the players can rest in ways that can be put into a video game.

Let's toss time events out completely. This would ONLY happen in campaigns where time doesn't impact the story. (BG3, I might add, has various story elements that are timely, such as the ritual, Lae'zel's patience in regards to getting cured, Wyll wanting to save Mizora, etc., But I digress).

A DM would evaluate his/her player characters to determine if they can keep going. If not, he develops a logical way to give them a chance to recover so he doesn't kill them.

Again, this can be done in a video game. Let's say you're whole party is half health and you decide to go into the spider lair. Game assesses the probability of surviving if they continue. Half HP. Not full spell slots. No chance.

THAT'S when you have a party member say, "I'm not sure it's a good idea to continue. Maybe we should return here when we're fully rested. This place looks like it'll kill us.". Long rest unlocks. Hint hint.

You're approaching the bulette's area. You're 3/4 HP and 1/2 spell slots. Same thing. Game warns you to rest first. Rest unlocks.

But, what if you long rest and then turn around and leave? THAT is when you hit them with something like a random encounter moment. While they were resting, something happens. More ogres come to Moonhaven. Wolves infest the town. Boggles invade your camp. So, sure, you tried to take advantage of the DM letting you know you should rest before fighting the spiders, but you'll pay for it in some way since you turned around and left instead.

Last edited by GM4Him; 17/05/22 05:47 AM.
GM4Him #815153 17/05/22 06:26 AM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
Long Rest is locked unless total party spell slot count is less than 25%.
I thought that main reason for limiting Long rests is to teach player to manage their resources ...

With this model you would be encouraged to do exact oposite ... spend all spellslots as fast as possible in order to be allowed to rest. O_o

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 17/05/22 07:21 AM.

Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
If only someone figured out a way to add GM to the game it would be perfect.
Now when you mention, that’s not impossible, and possibly the best solution I have heard thus far, thought that’s a potential idea for another game. Adaptive difficulty is an old trick - resident evils did that, I am pretty sure Naughty Dog does that. They do it with supplies but the same system could be adapted for dishing out camping supplies, assuming the resting would be restricted by camp supplies (and I mean restricted - in a way PoE1 or Kingmaker is). There is no way an actual large scale global resource management can be implemented in an RPG like that without being too punishing or too meaningless. Something that creates a feeling of scavenging for resources to rest, without actual putting players in too much danger of running out (and not telling them of course) sounds like the most ideal solution.


Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Usually, however, developers prefer to give up and not even try, which in my opinion is sometimes good for the game (POE1 vs POE2)
I still don’t know how I feel about this one. i definitely prefer PoE2 combat over PoE1 but I am not sure how much it has to do with polished mechanics, and how much with just better crafted and varied encounters. Per-encounter design made individual PoE2 encounters more interesting, but on the other hand Obsidian struggled with making good boss fight in that system. DLCs and megabosses somewhat succeeded but they too often turned out into lengthy slogs in order to make a dent in player’s resources. So I think it solved some problems, and introduced new ones.

Last edited by Wormerine; 17/05/22 06:51 AM.
GM4Him #815157 17/05/22 07:05 AM
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Note: I wrote this yesterday but didn’t click “post reply”. The conversation has moved on a little, sorry about that.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So tell me, what benefit is there at all in short resting? Seriously. In current state, what is the point?
It gives back hp, warlock spell slots and recharges some items with a single click and no wait. Most of the benefits you cite for long rests can be acheived by teleporting to camp during the day, except for the big one: full hp and ability restoration. That one costs supplies.

I fully acknowledge that the cost of a long rest is so far outstripped by food availability that this cost is effectively negligible. However, it takes sooo many clicks to pick supplies up, send them to camp, find the stupid traveler’s chest, pick the correct amount of food up, go back to the fire and then go to bed. Short rests beat long ones by a country mile on that front.

Assuming V1.0 streamlines the eating process, I would still use the available short rests every day because I enjoy wringing the most out of my ressources. I like taking a chance on a cantrip to preserve a spell slot for another skirmish later on that day. I like how short rests combo with Hex, Armour of Agathys and Hellish Rebuke. I like going all out with every last drop of power at my disposal because I’m out of short rests so this is the last fight of the day.


TRIBE!
GM4Him #815158 17/05/22 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
So tell me, what benefit is there at all in short resting? Seriously. In current state, what is the point?

i'm going to hit the short rest button, because i don't want to wait around (fiddling with objects and loading screens), i want to get +10 or 20 HP back fast, and just keep adventuring..

GM4Him #815159 17/05/22 07:28 AM
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In P&P I HATE when the DM allows unlimited resting whenever. To a point Im not playing. Be creative and challenging man!
BG2 was bad in that regard but it STILL had some immersive limitations (go to an inn, outside city...) and thank god for that mod that brought random encounters if you camped too much.

Larian and 90% of modern RPG players here must be dying inside to get auto health refil and auto spell refil and auto xxx refil after each encounters. No point to rest, its just another <<TEDIOUS GAMEPLAY ELEMENT>>. Wait, health bars? yet another <<TEDIOUS GAMEPLAY ELEMENT>>, lets just make everyone invincible. I mean why do we even have a MAP to move around, yet another <<TEDIOUS GAMEPLAY ELEMENT>>let just quick jump from encounter to encounters......

I regress.
But since this has to be D&D to some degree...We have the Larianised pointless non substantial sugar coated <CAMPING/RESTING>, where FOOD is the annoying gimmick.

DOS2 was popular for a reason.

I say : UNLIMITED but with IMMERSIVE LIMITATIONS. BG3 will be a better RPG game for it.
Limit camping with actual logical fantasy world reasons...
For instance:

there is goblins or xxxx in the area, if you camp = chance of a cool random encounters.
Extremely bad weather = very limited camping (short rest).
Super rough terrain/deadly area NO CAMPING.
You are on a timer/rush to have to do something NO CAMPING.
In the city, ONLY INNS or inside empty building.
Environment hazards if you camp in caves/near rivers/cliffs
etc...

I don't want to play a convenient RPG game in Faerun, I WANT TO BE IN Faerun. Larian, immerse us!
Remember that game Riven (Sequel to Myst)? I never played Riven. I VISITED RIVEN. Thats how I hope RPGs can positively evolve : with immersion.

Last edited by mr_planescapist; 17/05/22 08:28 AM.
GM4Him #815175 17/05/22 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I still think it can be done, but the problem is two-fold. First, there are seemingly too many that are afraid of timed events. Second, Larian is probably afraid to try something liked timed events because it seems many people are resistant to it and they don't want to lose their fans. (Understandably so.)

But I fully believe it could be done well if people would give it a chance. I have a hard time believing that you can't simulate a DM in a lot of ways.

Here's an example of how I think it could be done in BG3:

You crash on beach. Full health. Day 1 starts. Long and Short Rests are locked. Can't do them. You meet SH and explore the area. Intellect devourer fight. DM unlocks Short Rest but Long Rest is locked unless total party spell slot count is less than 25%. It's just you and SH. Let's say combined spell slot total of 4, and you used 2. Larian as DM sets it up so that you could probably survive the next several encounters with that many spell slots and using some Hit Dice to recover HP, especially knowing Astarion and Gale are just around some corners.

Oh, but you bypass Astarion and never meet him. You also run into trouble with the fisherman. If your party has less than 25% Hit Dice and less than 50% HP OR spell slots lower than 25%, long rest unlocks. Because HP was reduced to less than 50% and no more Hit Dice, probably because you didn't add another party member, you need a long rest. The DM, the game, has analyzed that you need a long rest. You will likely not make it if you keep going.

And as far as timed events go, I've given plenty of examples. You take three long rests after learning about the ritual at the grove. Suddenly, on the fourth morning, you are met by a tiefling who tells you the ritual has been delayed. Rath interrupted it, and now he's locked up. You can either rescue him or simply leave him. It's your choice. Consequence is Rath won't help you fight Kagha unless you sneak in and break him out or prove Kagha is bad. Benefit? You get three more days to stop the ritual. After two days, someone else interrupts the ceremony, buying you more time, but now THEY are in trouble. Security in the Grove is also tighter. Tensions are mounting. Benefit? 3 more days to save the grove.

Basically, what would a DM do if players were trying to abuse resting?

A. Not allow it at certain points in the story.
B. Provide soft consequences - ones that don't ruin the main story but might make things a bit more challenging to the players; events that make sense from a story perspective.

They actually did do some of this originally, but I didn't realize it until too late. If you rested immediately, origin characters would heckle you. "Why are we resting? We have tadpoles in our heads."

The problem was, Larian didn't follow through with this. Soft reminders you are resting too much could be dreams with the dream lover. It could be people threatening to leave the party or threatening to take matters into their own hands. I mean, there are SO many ways to do it besides hard limits.


You haven't fully thought through one thing, and that is the number of possible permutations.
The game already provides a huge number of possible options or reactions to the player's actions, and the events you are talking about would require much more.
I don't know if it would just be too much for them to finish this game in a reasonable time, and the budget is hardly made of rubber.
More complexity also means more potential bugs, so that it does not end in a disaster on the WotR level (at the premiere it was barely possible to complete it or not).
One more thing is that the big changes in act 1 will make the later acts much worse (like in every game Larian made).

As for the other limitation, it is exactly as mentioned by Ragnarok.
Ultimately, the effect is completely opposite to what was expected.
If you can't rest when you have too many slots for spells, why not use them all in one fight or burn them all when you want to rest.
Limiting HP is also not a problem, lowering your hp to an appropriate level is not a problem at all.
Theoretically, the solution was the CD, but here we enter the area where the game is potentially irritating.

Last edited by Rhobar121; 17/05/22 11:44 AM.
GM4Him #815176 17/05/22 11:20 AM
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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
If only someone figured out a way to add GM to the game it would be perfect.
Now when you mention, that’s not impossible, and possibly the best solution I have heard thus far, thought that’s a potential idea for another game. Adaptive difficulty is an old trick - resident evils did that, I am pretty sure Naughty Dog does that. They do it with supplies but the same system could be adapted for dishing out camping supplies, assuming the resting would be restricted by camp supplies (and I mean restricted - in a way PoE1 or Kingmaker is). There is no way an actual large scale global resource management can be implemented in an RPG like that without being too punishing or too meaningless. Something that creates a feeling of scavenging for resources to rest, without actual putting players in too much danger of running out (and not telling them of course) sounds like the most ideal solution.


Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Usually, however, developers prefer to give up and not even try, which in my opinion is sometimes good for the game (POE1 vs POE2)
I still don’t know how I feel about this one. i definitely prefer PoE2 combat over PoE1 but I am not sure how much it has to do with polished mechanics, and how much with just better crafted and varied encounters. Per-encounter design made individual PoE2 encounters more interesting, but on the other hand Obsidian struggled with making good boss fight in that system. DLCs and megabosses somewhat succeeded but they too often turned out into lengthy slogs in order to make a dent in player’s resources. So I think it solved some problems, and introduced new ones.


At least for me, Deadfire is definitely a better game than PoE1. I wasn't even able to finish the first part, which is unusual for me because I usually finish even very long games.
Fighting in PoE1 was terrible and I made a mistake and played on a high level of difficulty.
Not only was the game not difficult in any way (you could win 90% of the fights using exactly the same spells), you were also tormented by hordes of trash as in Diablo.
Add to that the ubiquitous backtracking (limit to 2 rests) and the gameplay is not very pleasant.
The rest of the game elements were also not very interesting.
In PoE2 they fixed most of the problems (apart from the story which was also boring).
I bet the poor sales of Deadfire have a lot to do with the dubious quality of PoE1, the game finally sold on a wave of nostalgia for the old games on IE. Because the game was what it was, most didn't even buy a sequel

Last edited by Rhobar121; 17/05/22 11:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Add to that the ubiquitous backtracking (limit to 2 rests) and the gameplay is not very pleasant.
That's what I mean. It didn't work. I did 3 playthroughs of PoE1 and I am pretty sure I never backtracked for new supplies.

I love PoE1 to death, but it was "like butter scraped over too much bread" as Bilbo would say. I am itching for another full PoE1&2 playthrough - easily my favourite cRPGs since IE games.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Add to that the ubiquitous backtracking (limit to 2 rests) and the gameplay is not very pleasant.
That's what I mean. It didn't work. I did 3 playthroughs of PoE1 and I am pretty sure I never backtracked for new supplies.

I love PoE1 to death, but it was "like butter scraped over too much bread" as Bilbo would say. I am itching for another full PoE1&2 playthrough - easily my favourite cRPGs since IE games.

Depends on the difficulty level, in the lower levels you could have taken more supplies with you.
Worst of all, there is a huge dungeon in the game that I completely hated.

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Originally Posted by Rhobar121
Depends on the difficulty level, in the lower levels you could have taken more supplies with you.
Worst of all, there is a huge dungeon in the game that I completely hated.
Ah, right. Never played below veteran, or whatever "hard" was called.

Yeah, Endless Dungeon of Caed Nua - one of many PoE kickstarter promises that shouldn't have been made. Cool concept and cool story. Cool visual design. Way, way too long and far too few unique encoutners.

GM4Him #815215 17/05/22 10:48 PM
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As far as various player attempts to cheat and injure themselves and their party in order to reduce their health so that rest is unlocked, another rule could be easily implemented. If you injure your fellow comrades, it is an immediate loss of relationship with them. If your relationship with them is reduced too low, they will leave the party. In this way, players would be penalized for going around and hurting themselves and their companions in order to reduce HP enough to unlock a long rest or short rest.

So, what I said before could be done to limit resting. Set the system up so that it does a basic evaluation of character stats in the group, including health and spells. After they reach a certain percentage of total party spell slots or health, a rest is unlocked. Purposefully injuring oneself or the party decreases party relationships and eventually will cause the party to split.

The suggestion is not meant to be absolute specific. It's not like I went and worked through all the details. It's the concept I was trying to convey. So maybe you don't base it just off of spell slots. Maybe you don't just base it off of HP. Maybe there needs to be a combination of them. The point is that either way larion could set up the system so that it evaluates the party's strength and allows rest to be unlocked once their strength level has reached a certain percentage of a total, so that they have the ability to rest before the game knows that they are about to go through some sort of big fight. Just like a DM would do.

Last edited by GM4Him; 17/05/22 10:49 PM.
GM4Him #815216 17/05/22 11:15 PM
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In terms of timed events, it wouldn't necessarily require that much more work. There aren't a ton of options to implement.

1. Ritual. After x days, an event occurs. You are notified that Rath interrupted it. He's locked up. No cinematic required. Someone appears at camp and let's you know. Doesn't even need voice acting. They COULD do all that, mind you, but it's not necessary. X days later, tieflings are expelled by force. Now they are at your camp with nowhere else to go. You still have a merchant, etc. You just can't access the grove because you long rested WAY too much... And I mean WAY too much.

2. Goblin leaders. After x number of days, you are warned. Goblins were seen lurking close to the grove. They may have found it the secret entrance. Hurry. Kill the leaders before it's too late. Who knows when the attack will come. X days later, the attack occurs.

THAT is just two examples. Doesn't need to be huge.

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