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JandK #817358 23/06/22 11:26 AM
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Depends on character, doesnt it?
Barbarian for example with every single swing. laugh


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
JandK #817359 23/06/22 12:14 PM
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For a barb it's a great feat, but most others... not as much. Not nearly.

JandK #817361 23/06/22 12:21 PM
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-2 or -3 should be still acceptable. -5 is too steep for me. does larian follows monster CR? as i said if GWM is good for low level monster it wouldn't be useful for me. usually we wont have problems with low level monster anyway. in solasta even with advantage the miss chance is high too.

one noticeable enemy is warlords. if not mistaken having like 22 AC if not mistaken. i have like +10 to hit. to hit a warlord even with advantage you need to roll a 12 and above which is not so easy. such high AC i find using phantasmal killer much useful.

RagnarokCzD #817362 23/06/22 12:23 PM
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Depends on character, doesnt it?
Barbarian for example with every single swing. laugh

and you get the same with everyone gang bang you the next turn laugh. i'm wondering if larian will implement the same barkskin like in solasta. barkskin stacks with unarmored defense.

Archaven #817363 23/06/22 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Archaven
i'm wondering if larian will implement the same barkskin like in solasta. barkskin stacks with unarmored defense.
Interesting ...
But they both are implemented, so you can try. smile

https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Barkskin

Even tho im not exactly sure if it should ... concidering this tooltip:
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Barkskin#content

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 23/06/22 12:46 PM.

Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
RagnarokCzD #817364 23/06/22 02:45 PM
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Archaven
i'm wondering if larian will implement the same barkskin like in solasta. barkskin stacks with unarmored defense.
Interesting ...
But they both are implemented, so you can try. smile

https://baldursgate3.wiki.fextralife.com/Barkskin

Even tho im not exactly sure if it should ... concidering this tooltip:
https://roll20.net/compendium/dnd5e/Barkskin#content

well i didnt install bg3 ever since my first and only completed playthrough. that was probably during patch 1 i supposed. with barkskin stacks, i'm getting like 26AC early game and was a super tank. though many said its a bug and shouldn't be allowed.

JandK #817367 23/06/22 03:17 PM
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Indeed it seems like a bug ...
Concidering Roll20 description, it seems it should do nothing once you have 16+ ... and it should cap it on 16, no matter what AC reduction effect you have active ...
So, usefull when you dont have much AC and are fighting in Acid pool ... i gues? laugh

I know its often recomended to use for Shapeshifting Druids, since you adapt that animal AC.

But for Barbarian, i would dare to gues it "is suppose to work" same as with Lizardfolk Natural Armor and Unarmored Defense ... you have to pick wich you want to use.


Short coment on my English. smile

Anyway ... i cast Eldritch Blast!
JandK #817370 23/06/22 04:19 PM
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RAW, yes Barkskin *should* set your minimum AC to 16. It should NOT stack with anything else; if you have an Unarmored Defense of 18, then with Barkskin your AC will still be 18.

That said, Barkskin is underpowered imo mainly because it requires concentration. It has such a low effect (increasing your AC by 2, maybe), such a high opportunity cost (can't cast other concentration spells), and can so easily be lost if you take damage. Additionally, either your druid is ranged (and thus probably doesn't need additional armor, and certainly wants the concentration slot for a better spell) or is melee (in which case AC 16 still isn't that great, and you'll likely lose concentration in 1-2 rounds). So I wouldn't be opposed to a buff...

Originally Posted by Archaven
-2 or -3 should be still acceptable. -5 is too steep for me. does larian follows monster CR? as i said if GWM is good for low level monster it wouldn't be useful for me. usually we wont have problems with low level monster anyway. in solasta even with advantage the miss chance is high too.

one noticeable enemy is warlords. if not mistaken having like 22 AC if not mistaken. i have like +10 to hit. to hit a warlord even with advantage you need to roll a 12 and above which is not so easy. such high AC i find using phantasmal killer much useful.
Are you suggesting that GWM should be -2 or -3 for +10 damage??? Or -2 for +4 damage?

The only Warlord statblock I'm finding is AC 18 and CR 12, meaning that characters should be level 9+ (attack bonus of about +9) when facing it. That's a 60% chance to hit which is not bad. GWM with Advantage still wins unless you do >13.5 (>1d12+7) average damage on a normal hit.

mrfuji3 #817372 23/06/22 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
RAW, yes Barkskin *should* set your minimum AC to 16. It should NOT stack with anything else; if you have an Unarmored Defense of 18, then with Barkskin your AC will still be 18.

Why should it not stack? Is there clarification somewhere on that? I was reading the spell, and it said:

"You touch a willing creature. Until the spell ends, the target's skin has a rough, bark-like Appearance, and the target's AC can't be less than 16, regardless of what kind of armor it is wearing."

Note, it says that the target's AC can't be less than 16. It doesn't say anything about being higher than 16. Is there some kind of sage clarification for this?

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
That said, Barkskin is underpowered imo mainly because it requires concentration. It has such a low effect (increasing your AC by 2, maybe), such a high opportunity cost (can't cast other concentration spells), and can so easily be lost if you take damage.

Seems very similar to Shield of Faith. A plus two bonus to AC that requires concentration.

JandK #817373 23/06/22 05:03 PM
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Because Unarmored Defense sets your AC to 10 + DEX + CON. It doesn’t add + CON to your existing AC.

JandK #817374 23/06/22 05:04 PM
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Regarding GWM, before you dismiss it, try it out. In my experience, it's amazing.

Granted, you can't just run in and hit everything without thinking. You have to play with a bit of tactics. Make sure you use bless, get a plus 1 weapon, and if possible use things like faerie fire and invoke duplicity on the harder enemies.

But mostly, pay attention to the vision cones and position yourself so that you can hide. Then hit.

I was absolutely against the idea of a minus five myself until I decided to try it out.

JandK #817376 23/06/22 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by JandK
Why should [Barkskin] not stack? Is there clarification somewhere on that? I was reading the spell, and it said:

"You touch a willing creature. Until the spell ends, the target's skin has a rough, bark-like Appearance, and the target's AC can't be less than 16, regardless of what kind of armor it is wearing."

Note, it says that the target's AC can't be less than 16. It doesn't say anything about being higher than 16. Is there some kind of sage clarification for this?
Barkskin doesn't stack because it doesn't specifically say anything about adding a bonus to your AC. Spells do what they say they do. If Barkskin stacked with other sources of AC, it would say e.g., "Add +2 to your AC."
https://media.wizards.com/2016/downloads/DND/SA-Compendium.pdf - search "Barkskin"
Importantly, Barkskin doesn't even stack with half- or three-quarters-cover!

Originally Posted by JandK
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
That said, Barkskin is underpowered imo mainly because it requires concentration. It has such a low effect (increasing your AC by 2, maybe), such a high opportunity cost (can't cast other concentration spells), and can so easily be lost if you take damage.

Seems very similar to Shield of Faith. A plus two bonus to AC that requires concentration.
Yes, but
- Shield of Faith is a 1st level spell, a bonus action, gives a +2 stackable bonus to AC and has a 60 foot range, although it's only 10 minutes.
- Barkskin is a 2nd level spell, costs a full action, doesn't give a stackable AC bonus, has a range of "touch", although it lasts for an hour.

I'd argue that the stackable +2 bonus at range completely overshadows the shorter duration. Additionally, Barkskin can be a +2 AC bonus only for characters with low AC so on average it's less than a +2 bonus. Increasing a frontline fighter's AC to 20 or even 22 can make them nigh-unhittable, while Barkskin's "set AC to 16" isn't that great of an AC. Especially because each time you get hit you'll have to make a Con ST or else lose the spell.

Barkskin is effectively a worse spell for a higher cost.

GM4Him #817413 23/06/22 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
And how often does a character who can use great weapons get Advantage?

There's a reason why we have a party. And a party that we fully control, so unlike PnP we can make sure our casters don't just use Fireball every turn. And getting advantage on attack rolls is something that you should already prioritize, even if you don't have GWM in party.

Ways of getting advantage:

1) attacking enemy while hidden or otherwise unseen.

- We still can hide with a bonus action as any class (BA hide should be removed imho);
- Attacking target without darkvision from shadows, while having darkvision ourselves;
- Invisibility grants advantage on attack rolls (however we need Greater Invisibilty to make it reliable).

2) attacking prone enemy when within 5 feet.

Some ways of knocking enemies prone:
- frozen surfaces,
- Grease,
- Wildheart Barbarian Eagle and Stag special attacks,
- Beastmaster's Boar companion special attack (it's spammable, long line, with decent DC),
- Battlemaster's Trip Maneuver,
- Topple attack from Quarterstaff (14 DC, not attack roll, try it out),
- Tasha's Hideous Laughter,
- special weapon abilities that knock prone (Warhammers and Mauls have Backbreaker special ability and Intransigent Warhammer has Impulse Blast).

3) attacking blinded enemy.

- Fog Cloud, Darkness spells and Darkness arrows create clouds that blind enemies inside. You can place them in a way that a melee character could blinded enemies with little trouble. You can also build a Githyanki Warlock to actually stay inside darkness and attack with your Greatsword, could be fun;
- Blindness spell, Raven familiar and Beastmaster's Dire Raven, Absolute Night spear can blind enemies.

4) attacking restrained (emwebbed, ensnared, entangled) enemy

Sources of restrained:
- Web spell, Beastmaster's Spider. Give your melee character Spider Step boots and profit;
- Entangle spell from Druid, and Ensnaring Strike (Ranger, Sorrow glaive, Nature's Snare quarterstaff).

5) attacking stunned, paralyzed or petrified enemy.

- Hold Person is the only way to get one of those conditions, so not much here. We need to wait for higher level spells (and monks).

6) other sources.

- Off Balance condition from Rush Attack (Halberd, Longsword) or Flourish (Shortsword, Rapier) special weapon abilites.
- first attack against enemy hit by Guiding Bolt;
- Invoke Duplicity from Trickster Cleric (but who would have trickster cleric in their party?);
- Reckless Attack (just one attack per round in BG3);
- Attacks rolls against targets affected by Faerie Fire.

TLDR. With a little bit of thinking you should be able to get advantage for your melee combatant for a lot of attacks. 100%? Not really. 50%? Definitely. And you still can just cast Bless every combat and increase your hit rate that way, or throw acid around.

Last edited by Elebhra; 23/06/22 10:26 PM. Reason: clarification
Elebhra #817417 23/06/22 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Elebhra
With a little bit of thinking you should be able to get advantage for your melee combatant for a lot of attacks. 100%? Not really. 50%? Definitely. And you still can just cast Bless every combat and increase your hit rate that way, or throw acid around.

Excellent post.

JandK #817419 23/06/22 09:09 PM
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GWM isn't too bad right now. The -5 to hit is a pretty significant penalty that's pretty difficult for melee PCs to make up for, especially at low levels.

The Sharpshooter feat is going to be way worse when/if it's added. +2 from high ground when combined with the +2 from the archery fighting style almost completely nullifies the -5 penalty. It's essentially going to be a -1 to hit for +10 to damage which is absolutely ridiculously strong.

Elebhra #817421 23/06/22 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by Elebhra
- Invoke Duplicity from Trickster Cleric (but who would have trickster cleric in their party?);

Isn't shadowheart a trickster cleric?

ArcaneHobbit #817423 23/06/22 10:00 PM
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Originally Posted by PrivateRaccoon
Originally Posted by Elebhra
- Invoke Duplicity from Trickster Cleric (but who would have trickster cleric in their party?);

Isn't shadowheart a trickster cleric?

Yes, but Shar worshiper shouldn't be welcomed into any decent adventuring party, don't you agree?

It was sarcasm, since I find it strange that someone would wonder how you could give your melee character advantage, while the game basically gives you a cleric that allows you to have advantage to a lot of attacks, once per short rest.

Originally Posted by ArcaneHobbit
GWM isn't too bad right now. The -5 to hit is a pretty significant penalty that's pretty difficult for melee PCs to make up for, especially at low levels.

The Sharpshooter feat is going to be way worse when/if it's added. +2 from high ground when combined with the +2 from the archery fighting style almost completely nullifies the -5 penalty. It's essentially going to be a -1 to hit for +10 to damage which is absolutely ridiculously strong.

Sharpshooter, Polearm Master and Crossbow Expert are 3 feats from PHB that I hope they will either not add or heavily modify.

Last edited by Elebhra; 23/06/22 10:00 PM.
JandK #817434 24/06/22 02:20 AM
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So, yes, Barbarian with Reckless Attack is what makes GWM truly potent. Also, if they DID implement Shove Prone, GWM would become quite potent especially at Level 5. Shadowheart rushes up, shoves enemy prone. Lae'zel uses GWM while enemy is prone. -5 to hit but Advantage. +10 if she hits. Probably kills goblin with 1-hit KO. Then attacks a second with a second attack, and even a third attack with BA.

Or... Faerie Fire a group of enemies. Lae'zel with GWM gets Advantage on a few of them.

So yes. In these specific circumstances GWM becomes very powerful. I'm not saying it's not a potentially powerful feat. I'm just saying that it isn't necessarily OP. It actually reminds me of a lot of Larian magic items.

IF you manage to do X and maybe even Y, you can then get the benefit, but you have to also make sure you activate it first.

GM4Him #817469 24/06/22 03:14 PM
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, yes, Barbarian with Reckless Attack is what makes GWM truly potent.

No, GWM is potent for any character planning to use 2-handed weapon. Often it's more powerful Ability Score Improvement for those characters, sometimes it's slightly less valuable. But if in release version of BG3 you will be able to take 3 ASI/feats, there will be nearly no reason to take any other feat for 2-handed weapon wielding character.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Also, if they DID implement Shove Prone, GWM would become quite potent especially at Level 5.

Shove Prone is either inconsequential or detrimental to power level of GWM. The former if you don't ever use Shove Prone and instead use all the ways to get advantage that are better*, the latter if you try using Shove to prone enemies instead of attacking them with your big sword or giving your martial advantage with better abilities*.

*
Quote
1) attacking enemy while hidden or otherwise unseen.

- We still can hide with a bonus action as any class (BA hide should be removed imho);
- Attacking target without darkvision from shadows, while having darkvision ourselves;
- Invisibility grants advantage on attack rolls (however we need Greater Invisibilty to make it reliable).

2) attacking prone enemy when within 5 feet.

Some ways of knocking enemies prone:
- frozen surfaces,
- Grease,
- Wildheart Barbarian Eagle and Stag special attacks,
- Beastmaster's Boar companion special attack (it's spammable, long line, with decent DC),
- Battlemaster's Trip Maneuver,
- Topple attack from Quarterstaff (14 DC, not attack roll, try it out),
- Tasha's Hideous Laughter,
- special weapon abilities that knock prone (Warhammers and Mauls have Backbreaker special ability and Intransigent Warhammer has Impulse Blast).

3) attacking blinded enemy.

- Fog Cloud, Darkness spells and Darkness arrows create clouds that blind enemies inside. You can place them in a way that a melee character could blinded enemies with little trouble. You can also build a Githyanki Warlock to actually stay inside darkness and attack with your Greatsword, could be fun;
- Blindness spell, Raven familiar and Beastmaster's Dire Raven, Absolute Night spear can blind enemies.

4) attacking restrained (emwebbed, ensnared, entangled) enemy

Sources of restrained:
- Web spell, Beastmaster's Spider. Give your melee character Spider Step boots and profit;
- Entangle spell from Druid, and Ensnaring Strike (Ranger, Sorrow glaive, Nature's Snare quarterstaff).

5) attacking stunned, paralyzed or petrified enemy.

- Hold Person is the only way to get one of those conditions, so not much here. We need to wait for higher level spells (and monks).

6) other sources.

- Off Balance condition from Rush Attack (Halberd, Longsword) or Flourish (Shortsword, Rapier) special weapon abilites.
- first attack against enemy hit by Guiding Bolt;
- Invoke Duplicity from Trickster Cleric (but who would have trickster cleric in their party?);
- Reckless Attack (just one attack per round in BG3);
- Attacks rolls against targets affected by Faerie Fire.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
Shadowheart rushes up, shoves enemy prone. Lae'zel uses GWM while enemy is prone. -5 to hit but Advantage. +10 if she hits. Probably kills goblin with 1-hit KO. Then attacks a second with a second attack, and even a third attack with BA.

Picking Shadowheart as a example here is funny to me. Shouldn't you just use her Channel Divinity ability here?

Originally Posted by GM4Him
So yes. In these specific circumstances GWM becomes very powerful.

Truth is that only in very specific circumstance - the enemy AC is higher than 14 (16 with bless, 19 with advantage at level 4) and there is little chance that you can get a killing blow at least once - choosing GWM is slightly worse than picking ASI.** There's never a realistically imaginable scenario where picking GWM would leave you a lot worse for any encounter since power attack is a toggle. In scenarios when GWM is better the effectiveness increase is insane.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
I'm not saying it's not a potentially powerful feat. I'm just saying that it isn't necessarily OP.

My disagreement with your misleading arguments, not overall conclusions.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
It actually reminds me of a lot of Larian magic items. IF you manage to do X and maybe even Y, you can then get the benefit, but you have to also make sure you activate it first.

Difference is that GWM is becoming even better when you are actively doing things that make you better regardless, while some Larian's magic items give you the benefit when you do something that makes you worse off. I personally like those items, but you can't compare being incentivized to get advantage on attacks to bringing your HP to less than a certain threshold.

JandK #817480 24/06/22 06:31 PM
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Wow. The shove prone thing was just an example I used because you can't shove prone in BG3, and being able to do so would add serious value to things like GWM. It's a primary way to get advantage. And I just threw SH out there. Again, just an example. I almost picked Astarion, but his Str sucks and it wasn't as believable. I also almost picked a random MC - say dwarf sorcerer with Athletics proficiency and high strength.

The point is that I was agreeing that it CAN be powerful especially with barbarians who get advantage a lot with reckless attack OR maybe if they made Shove Prone a thing. I mean, look at the list of ways to knock someone prone. So complicated compared to a simple Shove Prone mechanic that everyone can do as often as they want if they use an Action to do it.

That was my point about being able to use GWM effectively in BG3. You have to know what hoops to jump through to gain advantage to make it work effectively. What was it? 6 different basic methods with like several submethods each? Isn't the whole point of 5e that it is simple? But people keep trying to make it more complicated than it needs to be.

I'm not saying having multiple ways to gain advantage is bad. I'm saying that they took away the simplest method of gaining advantage - Shove Prone. Then they replaced it with SO many other things.

But, let me just be clear, Shove Prone was only 1 point I was making. It wasn't by far my primary point. I was actually just trying to say I am not saying GWM is dumb and pointless. It is a valuable feat if used well. My main point remains. It's still a trade-off. To use it well, you have to jump through hoops unless you're a barbarian who can get advantage with reckless attack every round.

Last edited by GM4Him; 24/06/22 06:35 PM.
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