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I know this subject has already cropped up so forgive me for starting it again. However, I'm new here and didn't get a chance to have a say. The design decisions relating to this seem a real shame so I really just wanted to add my bit. Sorry if others here think, 'Oh no, not this again'. It's worth noting though that if people think it's been talked about ad nauseum now, just you wait until full release if things stay as they are wink

So, I feel that good characterisaton should mean that characters have, well, their own characters. That's currently the case in all sorts of ways; social status, morality, ambitions, education etc, but when it comes to romance they really do seem like sexdolls. This is down to two main reasons and I think the solution to both is pretty straight forward; subtlety and player engagement.

Firstly, and this is easily the worst culprit, everyone tries to sleep with you...and they all decide to do so on the same night! What?! They don't even wait for the PC to show interest first, they just either ask outright or hint at it heavily. It's crazy. I know I put points into Charisma and bumped it to 14 but come on! wink I also realise they might feel like living today as if there's no tomorrow but it really stretches credulity.

Admittedly in Lae'zel's case it makes sense. She sees something she wants, she'll take it - or at least try to wink But that's the thing, isn't it? Does it make sense for the character? Shadowheart is a cleric of Shar and pretty secretive and slow to trust. Yes, you win her over a bit before celebration night but maybe she shouldn't be as quick to jump into bed with the PC as Lae'zel or the lascivious vampire?

Characters should be distinguishable from each other in romance as they are in other personality traits. In Mass Effect 2, you can sleep with Jack very quickly but it'll have repercussions whereas other characters will only do so near the end of the game or even, in the case of Tali, the sequel...not that it was necessarily planned ahead of time...

Secondly, everyone is bi-sexual. Before I go any further I want to make it clear that I have no issue with that in the practical sense. Not at all. They should indeed be bi-sexual so that all players get to role-play and live out a fantasy as they choose. However, as an interesting side-note, if everyone is bi, then it's an erasure of homosexuals and lesbians, not just heterosexuals.

To the point though; does it need to be signposted? Everyone being bi almost screams 'we're here to fulfill your fantasies' as much as the above point. It should be in the coding rather than explicitly out there when the player hasn't even asked, unless it makes sense for the character...say a particularly flirty one who likes to talk about previous conquests and such.

I know not all npcs will mention it but Wyll has a demon mistress in female form and Gale talks about Mystra as a 'she' and how he was (is) in love with her. Yet they both want you even if you're male. And that's just Act 1. It's possible Shadowheart might sleep with a female PC and in following acts reveal how she was in love with a man or maybe even had a husband. Who knows what's in store? Same kinda thing goes for the other companions we've been introduced to so far and those we might meet later.

So yeah, my suggestion is to let companions only mention their desire at the prompting of the player unless it really makes sense given the character in question. That would cut back a lot of this sexdoll obviousness straight away. Also, have companions reach the point where they'll 'go all the way' happen at different times. As things stand, they seem less real as personalities. The night of celebration feels more like a walk around Amsterdam's red light district, with your companions in the window fronts wink

PS: Speaking of the night of celebrations, why the hell does everyone know someone propositioned you? The tadpoles? Are they reading everyone's minds constantly? Or did Lae'zel, when she asked for sex, actually shout it at the top of her lungs as opposed to the way the voice actress sounded? When you turn them down, how come they don't seek company elsewhere if they're so randy? If they did, the PC would know about Gale sleeping with Shadowheart too, same way they know about me and Lae'zel. Oh wait, silly me, your companions would never sleep with each other because they need to stay pristine and available for the player's sexual needs in case the player wants them in later Acts...my bad! wink

Last edited by Mordenkainen; 12/07/22 01:02 AM.
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Strange how they're all so open to every race, gender and color, yet still all seem monogamous, even getting jealous over each other. DAI made the companions have their own preferences and it never diminished the character. Having characters that simply wait for you to decide which one gets a turn tonight seems like the NPCs you find in the old dirty bar from other CRPGs.


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Originally Posted by SolEquinox
Having characters that simply wait for you to decide which one gets a turn tonight seems like the NPCs you find in the old dirty bar from other CRPGs.

Yeah, you make a good point and that's some of what I was trying to articulate in the last bit of my post.

As you seemingly suggest, some romance decisions should have repercussions. Maybe in the full game they will but I suspect that if I sleep with Lae'zel in Act 1 everyone will be waiting patiently for me in case I change my mind in later Acts, heh.

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I can only hope the romances become fleshed out in the future acts. So far, the companions are trying hard to make you dislike them. But just like in the case of Wenduag from WOTR, only through an actual development was her romance one of the best in the game.


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Originally Posted by Mordenkainen
Secondly, everyone is bi-sexual. Before I go any further I want to make it clear that I have no issue with that in the practical sense. Not at all. They should indeed be bi-sexual so that all players get to role-play and live out a fantasy as they choose. However, as an interesting side-note, if everyone is bi, then it's an erasure of homosexuals and lesbians, not just heterosexuals.

They aren't bisexual, they are playersexual. They are always attracted to the player regardless of all other qualifiers. As long as you have higher enough relationship with them, you can romance them.

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To be clear, the companions are player-sexual, not bi-sexual. Each companion seems to have some sexual preferences about other NPCs, revealed through their history or dialogue or banter, but always wants to bang the PC.

If companions remain player-sexual, I think their sexual preferences should be at least mentioned. E.g., Wyll and Gale (mostly presented as straight) should, when flirting with a male PC, have some dialogue line similar to "I've never felt this way about a man before." Whereas Astarion (who flirts with all companions during banter) wouldn't have such a line. Companions should have a defined personality and desires that remain consistent within the game, and any deviation from that should be adequately explained or else it is jarring/unbelievable.

Alternatively, I'm fine with companions having set sexualities like in DAI. However, this requires there be a sufficient amount of companions. CP2077's companions massively failed because there was only 1 option for each gender-sexuality pair. BG3 would need a minimum of 8 companions. For each gender of companion, there'd be
1 straight
1 gay
2 bi
This would ensure that every PC has 6 available sex romance options--3 of each gender--which seems sufficient imo.

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Originally Posted by SolEquinox
I can only hope the romances become fleshed out in the future acts. So far, the companions are trying hard to make you dislike them. But just like in the case of Wenduag from WOTR, only through an actual development was her romance one of the best in the game.


It's uncanny that you said that; I almost used Wenduag as an example but thought that not very many people here would know what I'm talking about!

When I saw the way companions are fully voiced in BG3 and how you get the animations and Mass Effect style interactions, I immediately wondered how it would have been if PWotR had the same thing...though good writing is always the most important thing, of course.

Anyway, go team Wendu! smile Maybe Lae'zel will be as good?

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Alternatively, I'm fine with companions having set sexualities like in DAI. However, this requires there be a sufficient amount of companions.


Based on the size of the camp and that several characters have already been hinted as more companions, this could easily be the case.


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Originally Posted by Mordenkainen
Anyway, go team Wendu! smile Maybe Lae'zel will be as good?


One can only hope laugh


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Originally Posted by Piff
They aren't bisexual, they are playersexual. They are always attracted to the player regardless of all other qualifiers. As long as you have higher enough relationship with them, you can romance them.

Sorry, I'm having a hard time understanding what you mean. Playersexual? When Gale says he's in love with a woman but also wants to have sex with a male player, then how is that not bi? I mean, the player has a sex, right? Or are you saying that he never usually is attracted to males but, in fact, just somehow manages to be attracted to a male player character? Seems highly improbable...and a lot like a sexdoll.

Also, if that is the case, shouldn't he mention it at least?

People seem to get stuck on the bi thing but I'm not trying to offend anyone...my other point was the main one and my suggestions kill two birds with one stone, thereby avoiding the sexdoll thing that lessens their character and credibility, imho.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
To be clear, the companions are player-sexual, not bi-sexual. Each companion seems to have some sexual preferences about other NPCs, revealed through their history or dialogue or banter, but always wants to bang the PC.

If companions remain player-sexual, I think their sexual preferences should be at least mentioned. E.g., Wyll and Gale (mostly presented as straight) should, when flirting with a male PC, have some dialogue line similar to "I've never felt this way about a man before." Whereas Astarion (who flirts with all companions during banter) wouldn't have such a line. Companions should have a defined personality and desires that remain consistent within the game, and any deviation from that should be adequately explained or else it is jarring/unbelievable.

The funny thing here is that we are seemingly in agreement.

We can say on this forum there's such a thing as 'playersexual' but that doesn't help with credibility for the in-game story and characters. Astarion being 'bi' seems about right, the way he behaves and such...not so much the others. Having Gale saying 'I've never felt this way about a man before' is better than nothing but still stretches things...and when/if more than one companion were to do so it would snap credibility completely, imho.

You yourself say 'any deviation from that should be adequately explained or else it is jarring/unbelievable.' and that's my whole point. Credibility is being unnecessarily diminished when there should be better and subtler ways to deal with this.

And that still wouldn't counteract the sexdoll nature of pretty much everyone wanting you. In my last playthrough I only paid attention to Lae'zel's approval but I was propositioned by several others.

The answer seems so simple to me. Let the player start romance options off, job done. In fact, I have an asexual friend who specifically dislikes being asked for sex/romance in games so it doesn't necessarily help people of that persuasion either when 3-5 people ask, unbidden, for sex in the same scene. Sex separately, of course wink

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"Player" sexual is nothing but a meta term. All it does is describe the reasoning behind the decision to make all the companions bisexual.

Bisexual is, of course, the proper term, at least for anyone trying to roleplay and immerse in what's happening. Again, "playersexual" is just meta terminology that has nothing to do with immersion or roleplaying. There's no such thing in universe.

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I honestly do not think anything needs to be done about this. Their sexuality is up to the player to decide and therefore does not require anything done about it, as it would serve no purpose other than take away from the player's own roleplay they're trying to create by shoehorning an insignificant detail such as that. Certainly having them say something like; "I never thought about being with a [gender]." would only further alienate that roleplay.

And to me, everyone wanting to be involved with someone on the night of the celebration isn't that weird.

  • If you engaged and listened to every piece of dialogue with your companions, you'd know their motivations, desires and reasons.
  • They're all telepathically connected through the tadpole and they do overhear your conversations with other companions. Yes, they're equally as intrigued as to what goes on around the camp.
  • On the night of the celebration you've done an extraordinary feat where spirits are high and drinks are plenty. It makes sense to want to relax and indulge in such things on a special night.
  • Lae'zel in particular is very turned on after the battle and will participate in carnal pleasure with or without you.
  • If you kill the Tieflings though, Shadowheart rejects you and Wyll leaves.


I can provide in-depth reasoning as to why each and every companion finds you attractive that night as their reasoning and desires are quite obvious if you've participated in regular conversations with them.

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Originally Posted by JandK
"Player" sexual is nothing but a meta term. All it does is describe the reasoning behind the decision to make all the companions bisexual.

Bisexual is, of course, the proper term, at least for anyone trying to roleplay and immerse in what's happening. Again, "playersexual" is just meta terminology that has nothing to do with immersion or roleplaying. There's no such thing in universe.

Ah, I see.

Yes, I'm more concerned with the immersion and role-playing than a term meant to explain a practical decision by the designers that clashes with the characters identities.

I mean, I've often thought maybe companions should react differently to the player based on Charisma too. In some games you can use it as a dump stat and drop it to ludicrously low levels and yet everyone you meet is so easily seduced, heh. In fact, in some games the player's Charisma can have a dramatic effect on NPC's attitudes and often does...but romance-able companions? Never! That's sacrilege! Again, companions being signposted as being there for the player's fantasies regardless of whether it makes sense in-game.

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Originally Posted by Crimsomrider
I honestly do not think anything needs to be done about this. Their sexuality is up to the player to decide and therefore does not require anything done about it, as it would serve no purpose other than take away from the player's own roleplay they're trying to create by shoehorning an insignificant detail such as that. Certainly having them say something like; "I never thought about being with a [gender]." would only further alienate that roleplay.

And to me, everyone wanting to be involved with someone on the night of the celebration isn't that weird.

  • If you engaged and listened to every piece of dialogue with your companions, you'd know their motivations, desires and reasons.
  • They're all telepathically connected through the tadpole and they do overhear your conversations with other companions. Yes, they're equally as intrigued as to what goes on around the camp.
  • On the night of the celebration you've done an extraordinary feat where spirits are high and drinks are plenty. It makes sense to want to relax and indulge in such things on a special night.
  • Lae'zel in particular is very turned on after the battle and will participate in carnal pleasure with or without you.


I can provide in-depth reasoning as to why each and every companion finds you attractive that night as their reasoning and desires are quite obvious if you've participated in regular conversations with them.

Their sexuality is not up to the player when they expressly speak about sleeping with/being in love with people of the opposite sex to the PC and yet still want the PC too.

As for the night of celebration, I see where you're coming from but being able to rationalise it doesn't mean it's going to be believable for everyone, that it's going to feel right. No amount of explanation will make it make sense to me, I'm afraid.

I mean, I have an imagination, you know? wink I could make up reasons but I doubt many would believe them...and that's the thing about story-telling. It's about the percentage of people who will buy into it versus those who won't. Any plot point can have a reason but is it a good enough one, and if so, for how many people?

I could say that after years of keeping her secrets and being alone on the road with little memory of her past, Shadowheart finally allows herself to trust someone (you) and that, combined with the threat of turning into a Mindflayer and all the dangers recently faced, she decides to take comfort in your arms. But will you believe that? And will you believe she does that at the EXACT same time everyone else wants to jump in your bed? Not Gale's, not Wyll's, not Astarions...you and only you?

I think people take relationships at different speeds but that doesn't really happen here. It's unrealistic and increases the likelihood companions are seen as sexdolls.

As for the sexuality thing, like I said, that and the sexdoll thing could all be avoided by having romances started by the player. So simple from my perspective - such a little change. I don't need a power-fantasy where everyone wants to tear my clothes off on the same night and when it happened I laughed in disbelief. But that's just me.

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You're right about this not being a new topic have some links. I would also like to say that whether or not a herosexual npc is bisexual or not is an issue that came up a few times, with regards to immersion and roleplaying.

Originally Posted by Approval and Romance(Sozz)
I'd be leary of reading too much into the approval system at this stage, I've yet to have a playthrough where Astarion isn't willing to sleep with you based solely on dialogue choices. I'm also not sure how much of the flags and triggers aren't still placeholders for the purpose of testing in the EA area, can't be sure.

I've you haven't maybe check out some earlier threads that dealt with these topics (there are a bunch more I can't remember I'm sure) :
Dragon Age Origins - Next Age RPG c. page 3
Dragon Age Origins - Next Age RPG c. page 8
Character Acting, Demeanor, and Personality
Will there be a prologue
murderous horny companions
companions are amusement parks
adult content in BG3 locked
Herosexual NPCs locked

Does anyone like the Origin System? not really an old tread

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Originally Posted by Mordenkainen
playersexual [...] Or are you saying that [Gale] never usually is attracted to males but, in fact, just somehow manages to be attracted to a male player character? Seems highly improbable...and a lot like a sexdoll.
yes
Originally Posted by Mordenkainen
Also, if that is the case, shouldn't he mention it at least?
yes, at least imo

Originally Posted by Mordenkainen
The answer seems so simple to me. Let the player start romance options off, job done. In fact, I have an asexual friend who specifically dislikes being asked for sex/romance in games so it doesn't necessarily help people of that persuasion either when 3-5 people ask, unbidden, for sex in the same scene. Sex separately, of course wink
completely agree. And this would fix the following
Originally Posted by Mordenkainen
Having Gale saying 'I've never felt this way about a man before' is better than nothing but still stretches things...and when/if more than one companion were to do so it would snap credibility completely, imho.
since you'd likely only romance one companion in a single playthrough, so you wouldn't see "more than one companion" going seemingly against their background&personality-given preferences.

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Originally Posted by JandK
"Player" sexual is nothing but a meta term. All it does is describe the reasoning behind the decision to make all the companions bisexual.

Bisexual is, of course, the proper term, at least for anyone trying to roleplay and immerse in what's happening. Again, "playersexual" is just meta terminology that has nothing to do with immersion or roleplaying. There's no such thing in universe.

Not to put to fine a point on it, but why? If Tav is female, and gets in a romance with Shadowheart, she's a lesbian, not bi. If Tav's a male, and gets in the same relationship, she's straight. Saying "playersexual is meta" as a way to dismiss the argument, and then relying on meta information to say "they're bi" doesn't do much to support an argument.

I'm all for giving them each their own sexuality, I would prefer it. The problem is, someone is going to be slighted because they didn't get their preferred romance option. Origins had it's gay Alistair and lesbian Morrigan mods, with the hilariously hypocritical argument put forward by one use of the Alistair mod that "ya'll just need to accept people for who they are".

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by Mordenkainen
playersexual [...] Or are you saying that [Gale] never usually is attracted to males but, in fact, just somehow manages to be attracted to a male player character? Seems highly improbable...and a lot like a sexdoll.
yes
Originally Posted by Mordenkainen
Also, if that is the case, shouldn't he mention it at least?
yes, at least imo

Originally Posted by Mordenkainen
The answer seems so simple to me. Let the player start romance options off, job done. In fact, I have an asexual friend who specifically dislikes being asked for sex/romance in games so it doesn't necessarily help people of that persuasion either when 3-5 people ask, unbidden, for sex in the same scene. Sex separately, of course wink
completely agree. And this would fix the following
Originally Posted by Mordenkainen
Having Gale saying 'I've never felt this way about a man before' is better than nothing but still stretches things...and when/if more than one companion were to do so it would snap credibility completely, imho.
since you'd likely only romance one companion in a single playthrough, so you wouldn't see "more than one companion" going seemingly against their background&personality-given preferences.

Agreed! smile

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I do get what you're saying, and I think the ability to opt out of romance should be an option, but you realise that this is the game where we were promised fully rendered and animated sex scenes by the dev team? The over-sexed nature of our companions is 100% intended. No amount of explanation for their actions seems totally believable, because it's not meant to be, the characters aren't that deep.

Considering how easy it was to accidentally trip into romance in DOS2 just by not being an arsehole to everyone around you, and the overly-detailed descriptions of the various sexual encounters you can have throughout that game, making your companions a pack of horny bastards is on-brand for Larian. But, having said that, I've played multiple crpgs where the romance is initiated by the npc. Sometimes it's well written and built up over many encounters, other times it's Casavir the adulterer ambushing you on a castle wall the night before a siege, declaring his undying love for you and inviting you to smash, because... *checks notes* you're female and not a murderhobo. Truly a paladin of high standards.

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