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Originally Posted by konmehn
Here’s a few off-hand. Minthara. Ludicrously ‘evil’, and unbelievably in-your-face about it. I don’t have quotes, but think back on the scene – she really pushes the comic-book evil persona.

I disagree, and I suspect you haven't seen as much of her character as there is to offer.

If you go the "romance" route with Minthara, you have the opportunity to connect with her and see into her thoughts. Within, there's an expression of fear and vulnerability. It gives you a new insight into her character.

Originally Posted by konmehn
The illithids. The ‘bad guys’ are the overly evil illithids you encounter everywhere. No attempt to disguise it.

For all we know there are multiple factions of illithids pursuing varying agendas, some of which could certainly be more nuanced than you're giving them credit for.

Originally Posted by konmehn
Then the ‘good illithid’ (the guy in the underdark) is too ‘good’ – he’s too ‘pure’. That’s blandly black and white.

I can't help but feel like you're jumping to conclusions based on your own bias. In other words, you seem to expect a certain level of writing and thus fill in a lot of blanks.

The illithid in question once partnered with a lich, offering the undead creature souls while it took the brains. Even now, the illithid has to satisfy his appetite, and though he searches for a solution, he still eats the brains of living, sentient creatures. This is a conflict in his character that is, in my opinion, undeniably interesting.

Originally Posted by konmehn
It’s been a while since I played it, but the red hobgoblin and Minthara and the goblins have very, from what I remember, one-sided ‘evil’ motivations for assaulting the druids.

They are searching for the weapon that the Absolute has commanded them to find. I can see players joining them in an attempt to get closer to the cult and find out more from within. I can even see some of the characters, like Astarion, joining them because they are embracing the powers offered by the Absolute. For Astarion, after all, those powers mean freedom from his former master.

Originally Posted by konmehn
The writing is so forgettable that I can’t remember what the druids are about.

I dare say a lot of folks don't remember Shakespeare from school, but that doesn't exactly make it bad writing.

Originally Posted by konmehn
But Halsin is an overly virtuous – noble, infallible, mallet-over-the-head good guy.

Again, I don't think you're looking too deeply into the story and considering what's going on around the edges. I suspect, for instance, that Halsin may be partially responsible for what happened with Ketheric Thorm and the Shadow Cursed lands. Which he is now trying to put right by joining whatever group he can, whether that be the player characters or Aradin's Beno Boys.

Originally Posted by konmehn
I think there’s some ‘dark druids’ or something in the grove as well, but from what I recall they’re so patently ‘evil’ as well that there’s no nuance to it.

To my understanding, the Shadow Druids are a group that believe the growth of society harms nature. Cities and cutting down trees and so on.

In the case of BG3, the Shadow Druids specifically warned Kagha of the armies coming... the drow and the goblins and the gnolls... and told Kagha that the best way to protect the grove was to use the Rite of Thorns, to seal the grove off from the coming darkness and bloodshed. That's why she's acting the way she is: to protect her people.

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First of all, let me point out that D&D was historically made based on alignment. Goblins bad. Elves good.

Secondly, I think Larian has done a pretty good job at sticking with a blend of the old but also letting you know that just because someone is of a "bad" race, they aren't necessarily bad. Here are just a few examples:

Omeluum the mind flayer

Blurg the hobgoblin

Some of the duergar like Kith the mason and his apprentice

If you side with Minthara, you discover she may have another side to her that maybe isn't so terrible

The Iron hand gnomes are actually almost like terrorists once you learn more about them. They're not exactly good.

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I actually agree somewhat with JandK. I think there's a twist to Halsin we don't know.

He was too eager to come to Moonrise. I've always thought that Larian is waiting to drop some big secret about him.

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Originally Posted by JandK
I disagree, and I suspect you haven't seen as much of her character as there is to offer.

Ah, here’s the guy that saying other people were ‘bitching’ on another thread for expressing an opinion.

Nice to have a reaction from you at last bud – I can definitely rate your opinion highly, given that you try to tear the throats off everyone on this forum, in your insipidly highfalutin way.

I’ve read all Minthara’s opening dialogues – you’d want to have the IQ of a gnat not to notice she’s pushing the evil agenda so hard it’s almost painful. Your stoic defence of her one-dimensional-ness is as much as I’d expect from one who’s whole attitude to forum debate is one-note slander of anyone who writes something you don’t like hearing.

Anyway, I’ve made my point, you’ve made yours. Hope you don’t write any books any time soon pal, that’s all I’m saying.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
First of all, let me point out that D&D was historically made based on alignment. Goblins bad. Elves good.

‘First off’ let me point out that whether it’s called DnD or anything else, it’s a story mate. And all good writers do this thing called ‘thinking outside the box’ – not within it, which is what you seem to prescribe.

What was Irenicus again? An elf, from what I remember. Didn’t seem like such a nice elf, did he? Maybe that's why he actually seemed interesting and not some cliché like evil-Drow Minthara.

I’m only in my 30s – you’d think old boys like yourselves (correct me if I’m wrong) would have seen more of ‘real life’ to know people don’t just act like ultra-good elves or ultra-evil Mintharas.

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Actually, both Minthara and Dror Raggzlin (the hobgoblin) have VERY! human motivations, which you can find out if you use detect thoughts on them. They both just want to please the absolute and seize power and authority. Ofc they are part of the potentially brainwashing cult, so we can't be sure if this is what they really desire. I think those true souls should be considered more as pawns with just a hint of their own alignment and personality, not full-scale characters, at least, not yet. True soul Nere on the other hand can be turned away from the Absolute by persuading him and exposing him to the truth and even Minthara in a certain sequence can violate a direct order from the absolute to kill you at camp. So not so sure about this whole aspect yet.

About Halsin, I think he is definately good in alignment, but he comes with a twist of a cunning mind. I find his philosophy and character convincing. If you kill Kagha, he plays politics and assigns an expatriate to lead the grove, because he thinks that it is corrupt on many levels. And he can't hold it by himself because he is selfish to leave the grove and pursue his own goals near the moonrise towers. That leads me to a thought that being good is not bad and being bad is not bad (jokes aside). Because you can't be either 100% and the game portrays it always OK, but sometimes not great. I'll give this a second look in my next playthrough.

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Originally Posted by konmehn
I’ve read all Minthara’s opening dialogues...

Wow, all of the opening dialogues? All of them? Goodness, I guess your opinion is informed.

Originally Posted by konmehn
Your stoic defence of her one-dimensional-ness...

I don't recall defending her as being one dimensional. In fact, I remember quite the opposite, suggesting that she is not one dimensional.

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Originally Posted by JandK
I don't recall defending her as being one dimensional. In fact, I remember quite the opposite, suggesting that she is not one dimensional.

LOL. You remember it as being so, therefore it is - self-awareness glitches kicking in again there, my amigo. Pro tip: there are others who might not share your view.

Minthara’s quoted dialogue for attacking the grove: ‘Tell me what you know. The Absolute will reward us with such power if we find this place.’

The full video

Even as a kid, if I heard a line like that from a villain I’d roll my eyes.

I rest my case.

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I thinks JandK has some fair points, I liked his portrayal of the "good illithid" dilemma. Omeluum has an interesting book btw (have to kill him) which has a hint of how the illithid society works. And another thing that comes to my mind: humans eat animals. Are we evil in our own eyes because of it? I doubt it, but animals might not even have a definition of evil, so we are not necessarily evil to them also. This is a thing we can't judge for certain, because there are no other sentient species we can find tasty. But I think we would be evil for them xD

Last edited by neprostoman; 05/08/22 11:01 PM. Reason: typo
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Originally Posted by konmehn
Originally Posted by JandK
I disagree, and I suspect you haven't seen as much of her character as there is to offer.

Ah, here’s the guy that saying other people were ‘bitching’ on another thread for expressing an opinion.

Nice to have a reaction from you at last bud – I can definitely rate your opinion highly, given that you try to tear the throats off everyone on this forum, in your insipidly highfalutin way.

I’ve read all Minthara’s opening dialogues – you’d want to have the IQ of a gnat not to notice she’s pushing the evil agenda so hard it’s almost painful. Your stoic defence of her one-dimensional-ness is as much as I’d expect from one who’s whole attitude to forum debate is one-note slander of anyone who writes something you don’t like hearing.

Anyway, I’ve made my point, you’ve made yours. Hope you don’t write any books any time soon pal, that’s all I’m saying.

Originally Posted by GM4Him
First of all, let me point out that D&D was historically made based on alignment. Goblins bad. Elves good.

‘First off’ let me point out that whether it’s called DnD or anything else, it’s a story mate. And all good writers do this thing called ‘thinking outside the box’ – not within it, which is what you seem to prescribe.

What was Irenicus again? An elf, from what I remember. Didn’t seem like such a nice elf, did he? Maybe that's why he actually seemed interesting and not some cliché like evil-Drow Minthara.

I’m only in my 30s – you’d think old boys like yourselves (correct me if I’m wrong) would have seen more of ‘real life’ to know people don’t just act like ultra-good elves or ultra-evil Mintharas.

The only reason I said anything about d&d's origins was just to kind of point out that if they're creating scenarios with specific monsters as bad guys that is not something unheard of for D&D. That's kinda a D&D roots thing.

But you seem to have overlooked the other parts of what I said when I pointed out that bg3 doesn't seem to be holding true to the stereotypes of old D&D. I gave a few examples of them thinking outside the box and having monster races that aren't necessarily bad and even some typically good races who are doing some bad things like the gnomes in the underdark. Point was that I do think that they are being pretty good about it, not just sticking to the stereotypes. If anything, they've given every single character in this story a personality, even the evil goblins, so that you might feel guilty about just slaughtering them all.

I kinda miss the good old days when I DIDN'T have to feel guilty about killing bad guys in video games. I actually even feel guilty about killing the hag in this game. You bust into her home and kill her to see if this girl who pretty much asked to be messed over by the hag.

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Originally Posted by neprostoman
I liked his portrayal of the "good illithid" dilemma.

LMAO. Okey dokey.

Here's the 'genius' writing again:

‘Tell me what you know. The Absolute will reward us with such power if we find this place.’

Ahhhhh.

Ok, Minthara. You don't seem like a cartoon ripped from the mind of some washed-out hack. Your motives are so thought-provoking, like the name of your master, The Absolute. BTW, my 7 year old kid thinks The Absolute sounds naff AF. I hope the The Absolute is not able to retaliate - personally, I think it sounds naff as well. And really, 'such power'? Ah come now, that sounds shallow to me Minthara. What are ya even going to do with that, love?

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Originally Posted by konmehn
Pro tip: there are others who might not share your view.

Sigh.

Whether or not she is one dimensional is up for debate.

Whether or not I gave a "stoic defense of her one dimensional nature" is not. Because I didn't defend her as a one dimensional entity. I rejected the notion that she is one dimensional and pointed out that you don't know any more what you're talking about than a handful of lines from some opening dialogue.

You're attempting to give an in depth analysis of something you only have a cursory, shallow familiarity with.

QED

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
But you seem to have overlooked the other parts of what I said when I pointed out that bg3 doesn't seem to be holding true to the stereotypes of old D&D.

You didn't give any examples of how they think outside the box. I gave a very distinct example of how they don't. See above quote.

Ball's over to you.

Last edited by konmehn; 05/08/22 11:56 PM. Reason: typo
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Very thought provoking!
Rest well, we'll need our strength!
sleep

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Originally Posted by JandK
You're attempting to give an in depth analysis of something you only have a cursory, shallow familiarity with.

I provided one quote. I can provide dozens of others that prove she's an afterthought in terms of writerly effort. But first I challenge you this: provide one quote that proves she actually has depth. Must be easy, right?

Looking forward to it.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I actually even feel guilty about killing the hag in this game. You bust into her home and kill her to see if this girl who pretty much asked to be messed over by the hag.

Speaking of, the hag has a really interesting Speak with Dead scene, in case you haven't seen it.

She talks about all the people who come to her, making the point that she doesn't hunt these victims down. There's such a bitterness for life in her voice. She talks about showing people their true nature.

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Originally Posted by JandK
[quote=GM4Him]She talks about all the people who come to her, making the point that she doesn't hunt these victims down. There's such a bitterness for life in her voice. She talks about showing people their true nature.

“You know, I was gonna give you a swift kick up the arse and show you to the door…but I think you and I could have a bit of fun together" - the hag.

I’m Irish and the first sentence is a cliché, stock phrase from a bygone era over here. You really think this is original writing? LOL.

Lads, maybe stop playing games and read some books. Or even watch something with original lines, like The Wire or The Sopranos.

Also, the hobgoblin?

‘You – get to the grove. Help the drow Minthara kill the lot.’ – Red Hobgoblin, whatever his name is.

More gems from the BG3 writers – my 7 year old is still scoffing at it all. But all right, red guy has ‘depth’ does he, lol

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The era must be so bygone that I can't find anything around the Internet! Btw, did you know that the whole "the Wire or the Sopranos" films are based on my neighborhood's folklore? But you surely can enlighten me with a quote or two, can't you? Please? xD
Dude this is hilarious..

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Originally Posted by neprostoman
The era must be so bygone that I can't find anything around the Internet! Btw, did you know that the whole "the Wire or the Sopranos" films are based on my neighborhood's folklore? But you surely can enlighten me with a quote or two, can't you? Please? xD
Dude this is hilarious..

Firstly, what in the hell - you tried to 'google' that phrase to prove me wrong? Oh shit... Ok pal - so ask any Irish person you know about that phrase: you're telling me I don't know an 'auld mammys' phrase from my own country, is that it? Seriously? Are you from Ireland - obviously not, because it's a cliche. You're telling an Irishman that he doesn't know what a cliche is from his own country because you googled it and didn't find it.

Think about that 'dude'.

Good sopranos

There's some good Sopranos lines, but what in the name of hell is your point about living in the same area as the series was shot?

What???

You directly influenced the quality of the Sopranos and The Wire because you lived there?

Haha.

Well shit. Tell me more about how that happened bro.

Last edited by konmehn; 05/08/22 11:42 PM. Reason: typo
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May be in the other universe where I am more witty, but in this one it seems you outsmarted me and everyone here 10 to 1!! So I might as well end this mighty off topic discussion and get some good ol sleep dude! But thanks for some good fun laugh

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Originally Posted by neprostoman
So I might as well end this mighty off topic discussion and get some good ol sleep dude! But thanks for some good fun laugh

At least you've a sense of humility! You'll go far in life with that - can't say the same for certain others here *cough, cough*. Have yourself a good sleep pal and enjoy your weekend

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