Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
I can't resist to show you how mistreated I've just been while I was recording something for a video.

Short clip : Combats against Dror Razglin, I just rushed into it.

6 rounds combat.

Shove : 3 (2 to push, 1 to disengage)
Pushed by Dror's Weapon : 5
Pushed by Dror's Shockwave : 2

=> There has been 10 attempts (successfull or not) to push my characters or shove uses for various reasons.
=> 1 of my characters has been killed BECAUSE shove is a bonus action (Dror has first choose to use his action then climb the ladder to shove).
=> 1 of my companion has been impossible to bring back in combat

This is definitely a good exemple of how bad combats in BG3 can turn because "pushing" is absolutely too powerfull and too common.

=> As a result I had to revive my characters additionnal times.
=> I had to allow more ressources to "heal" (or help) than I should.
=> Engage the archer with my fighter has been useless
=> Combat has been slower
=> Shadowheart should have used more turns than the whole combat duration to get back in the area. On top of that, she'd have aggro all goblins in the main room if I tried.

But it's not only about this combat...
- Shove is everywhere to push, to disengage, to wake characters up, for the sake of it (goblins, druergar,...)
- Skills that can push your characters are everywhere (Dror, Minotaurs, Bulette,...)
- Items that can push your characters are everywhere (boat to grymforge,...)

This is definitely too much and as a result, combats may be extremely frustrating and tedious. We're pushed so often and so far that we cannot even prevent it.
It may also completely negate some tactical players choices (to engage archers, to use sleep,...) on top of allowing many ennemies to one shot our characters.

This should never happen.


[video:youtube]
[/video]


I haven't considered myself "in difficulty" once in this combat but I've been ANNOYED a lot...

- Annoyed to re-move my characters so often because the ennemies have changed my position.
- Annoyed to think of staying at least 10m away from holes (which is often not possible in the game).
- Annoyed that going higher was a worst choice than staying on the ground.
- Annoyed to revive characters because the AI has so powerfull tools.
- Annoyed that my engaged fighter didn't trigger an AOO on the archer (or force an attack with disadvantage)
- Annoyed to have been one shot (basically, that's what happened to SH but it usually apply to every characters shoved to death)
- Annoyed of spending so many actions to react such powerfull tools and survive rather than choosing how to use my ressources.
- Annoyed that a fight that could have ended in 4 rounds ended in 6.


EDIT :

I just had a try yesterday.

Red = the area from which you can be OS.
Green = bottomless pit. I included the spider pit in "bottomless"/OS because it mostly mean that one character is out of combat (except if it's a character that already have misty step + spellslot)
Blue = the safe zone

This combat mostly rely on metagaming and is only "rewarding" (or at least not penalizing too much) a single strategy : attack them from behind / from the stairs.
I want to be able to rush into them with melee characters and fight arround the throne. I don't want to be OS before knowing that I should stay so far away from holes.
What is a bad position should be mostly obvious (this is visible holes, not hidden traps) at the first glance, not after you've lost a character.


[Linked Image from zupimages.net]


This is the kind of expected dangerous zone most players will have in mind when they're gonna see holes.
And to my own surprise... this is the danger zone for SHOVE. If you're a bit further your character won't fall into the pits if they're shoved by a 18 str character.
Shove distance doesn't seem so broken here in the end (Dror probably has more str than my Lae'zel though)

[Linked Image from zupimages.net]

Last edited by Maximuuus; 10/08/22 07:31 AM.
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
“But, but, but enemies never push!”

Yeah, when doing this fight I absolutely avoid having a drop within a screen’s view.

The frustrating thing is that push prevents us from using the environment. The beams upstairs could be a fun feature with with enemies being able to dash&push you are asking for a cheap KO. Most of the lower level is off limits as even when fighting around the throne I found myself getting pushed into the pit.

Incidentally, I took revenge on Dror Razglin and pushed him to the pit in my current run - he was damaged and left with only a couple of HPs… at which point he left the combat, switched to real-time healed himself to full, and rushed back upstairs and rejoined the combat. The game is rigged.

PS. My take on push is as follows - in a decent amount of combat encounters it works alright. On a flat surface push distance isn't too terrible and it is unreliable way of disengaging. Pushing someone down is still powerful, but not as powerful as it was during advantage for highground times. As long as there isn't a massive drop, push acts as a minor annoyance.

However, when push becomes a problem then it becomes a real problem that dominates the counters. Dror Razglin, some of the underdark encounters, Druegars - in those areas pushing or getting pushed becomes the fight. Even if you choose not to use push yourself, your every action needs to revolve around a possibility that the enemy will try to push you. Distance that enemy can traverse and still push you, means you are unlikely to be ever outside push range. Getting pushed can eliminate a healthy character in one swoop (or eliminate them for couple turns, like in case of getting shoved into the pit in Razglin's fight).

Last edited by Wormerine; 08/08/22 10:19 AM.
Joined: Jul 2022
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2022
Looks like a very good usage of the toolset by the AI. Shove is like a glue that makes AI act relatively smart and creative in a sneakless combat. But of course I can understand your frustration here, but I hope they don't just dumb down those mechanics but make AI differ through difficulty levels. As of now you can actually counter it by athletics and acrobatics, rogues with expertise can have +8 in acrobatics and are very well protected from shove. You can have +5-7 in athletics with any character as well - with some strength, metallic boots and a proficiency.

Last edited by neprostoman; 08/08/22 09:16 AM.
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
Originally Posted by neprostoman
Looks like a very good usage of the toolset by the AI. Shove is like a glue that makes AI act relatively smart and creative in a sneakless combat. But of course I can understand your frustration here, but I hope they don't just dumb down those mechanics but make AI differ through difficulty levels. As of now you can actually counter it by athletics and acrobatics, rogues with expertise can have +8 in acrobatics and are very well protected from shove. You can have +5-7 in athletics with any character as well - with some strength, metallic boots and a proficiency.

This is absolutely not a matter of "difficulty" levels".
It's perfectly fine if the ennemy succeed at making things because even if I have +7 in athletics some of them are so powerfull that they succeed more or less often at pushing me. This is what difficulty levels are for.

I haven't considered myself "in difficulty" once in this combat : I've been ANNOYED.

- Annoyed to re-move my characters so often because the ennemies have changed my position.
- Annoyed to think of staying at least 10m away from holes (which is often not possible in the game).
- Annoyed that going higher was a worst choice than staying on the ground.
- Annoyed to revive characters because the AI has so powerfull tools.
- Annoyed that my engaged fighter didn't trigger an AOO on the archer (or force an attack with disadvantage)
- Annoyed to have been one shot (basically, that's what happened to SH but it usually apply to every characters shoved to death)
- Annoyed of spending so many actions to react such powerfull tools and survive rather than choosing how to use my ressources.
- Annoyed that a fight that could have ended in 4 rounds ended in 6.

Sure, it's very cool if the AI uses all the tools but it's not if the tools may have so big consequences on combats.
They should at least make shove a full action and reduce the distance to which we are pushed, whether it be with shove, items or special skills.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 08/08/22 12:34 PM.
Joined: Sep 2017
G
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
G
Joined: Sep 2017
Yeah, it's so bogus when you get shoved in the Spider Pot and the camera is so wonky you can't see above to possibly Misty Step back into the fight or Githyanki jump.

This combat can get out of hand if the initiative order is wrong or Dror gets lucky with some positioning. You have to avoid the edges and just play against the wall. SO FUN?

Joined: Oct 2020
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Oct 2020
Shove needs to be made an action and be limited in range, plain and simple. Fights are getting ridiculous and extremely unfun with all that pushing.

Joined: Jul 2022
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2022
It can indeed be tied to difficulty levels. Shove probabilities/target priority/general AI effectiveness - all can be tuned down to fit your preferences if we get several difficulty levels. I find it the optimal solution, because I wish every combat I had in this game looked like what you showed in the video. I like that kind of challenge a lot and to take it away from me and others to favor you and others would be a non-optimal solution. smile
We could have both options! So I don't think it illustrates a bad combat by any means. Just a combat you don't enjoy and I can understand why.

Last edited by neprostoman; 08/08/22 09:45 AM.
Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
K
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
K
Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
Overall, it is simple, make shove a full on action, that way the enemies can only use it once. As for the items that cause push? maybe make the distance of that only 1-2 m standard, so that they can only be used to create some distance, either to get away or heal. but all sucg actions should count as a full action. So that the AI van only use one type of shove per turn. Also, is shove to prone a option in BG3? If not I think it should be. Just make it a toggle or so like in for example, Solasta.
AI should definitely be smart as it is now, as to punish players for not taking into account proper positioning.

As for getting punished for standing next to the spider pit? lol, I would push anyone in there myself if they happen to go and stand there. I am perfectly fine that being insta killed by falling into a river or abyssal chasm. Is it frustating? yes. DO I want it removed? no. As for limiting it to distance? I'd say 10 m for a 23 STR character and 1-3 for below 18. 18, 3-5 m, 20 str 5-8 m. sadly it doesnt work with tiles like solasta so that is the best I can think of.

Last edited by Kimuriel; 08/08/22 09:51 AM.
Joined: Jul 2022
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2022
I am actually not against it at all. If AI still uses it to its highest potential. If they still can jump+shove to punish me for bad positioning.

Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
Originally Posted by Kimuriel
AI should definitely be smart as it is now, as to punish players for not taking into account proper positioning.
Originally Posted by neprostoman
If AI still uses it to its highest potential. If they still can jump+shove to punish me for bad positioning.

I totally agree but most often proper position currently mean playing against the walls, not using the verticality to go higher or kitting ennemies for turns to start fighting in an area without holes...
Punish me if I've made a mistake but not mostly for free. On top of that being 10m away from a hole should never be considered as "a mistake", especially in a game with so much verticality.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 08/08/22 09:58 AM.
Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
K
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
K
Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
Yeah it comes to limiting distance of push I think. Throwing can be maybe a bit further if it is a light character like a gnome or gobbo. Not sure. And yeah the bullette knocking you for 10-15 meters I am fine with, that thing is huge. Same for the minotaur Bull rush. Seeing we don't have grids, they need to consider the size of the character pushing maybe. A 23 str gnome shouldnt be able to push more than maybe 4-5 m xD. But a dragonborn or Half orc, definitely ok with a bit more.

Last edited by Kimuriel; 08/08/22 09:57 AM.
Joined: Aug 2021
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2021
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Incidentally, I took revenge on Dror Razglin and pushed him to the pit in my current run - he was damaged and dies with only couple HPs… at which point he left the combat, switched to real-time healed himself to full, and rushed back upstairs and rejoined the combat. The game is rigged.
HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *breathe* HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA *breathe* HA HA HA HA HA HA


TRIBE!
Joined: Jul 2022
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Jul 2022
Wait, did we just confirm that featherfall is not trash but a spell worthy of use in a start of a fight?? laugh

Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
K
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
K
Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
Originally Posted by neprostoman
Wait, did we just confirm that featherfall is not trash but a spell worthy of use in a start of a fight?? laugh
Featherfall is nice to use in instances with a lot of cliffs or verticality yes. Another good spell later on might be dimension door (not currently in) as it allows you to transport an ally with you to a set location. Think of it as Misty Step +. Is Spirit Guardian in BG3 any good? in Solasta me and a friend are often using that combined with wall of flame placed in a ring around us lol. In BG3 you can only place wall of Flame in a line no?

Last edited by Kimuriel; 08/08/22 10:01 AM.
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
veteran
OP Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2020
Location: Belgium
Originally Posted by neprostoman
Wait, did we just confirm that featherfall is not trash but a spell worthy of use in a start of a fight?? laugh

Not really. Feather fall is supposed to be a reaction so at least if it was, it would also help... but only if you don't fall into one of the numerous bottomless pit...
Damage is not the only issues with pushing.

Last edited by Maximuuus; 08/08/22 10:02 AM.
Joined: Aug 2021
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
Joined: Aug 2021
Originally Posted by neprostoman
Wait, did we just confirm that featherfall is not trash but a spell worthy of use in a start of a fight?? laugh
I wouldn't call Featherfall trash, it's done work for me. Still, that spell only negates the damage aspect of shove. Bottomless pits and lava still kill you with Featherfall; you still lose your position (no more high ground, or shoved somewhere you can't hide); it still acts as a bonus action disengage for enemies, as Maximuuus' video shows.


TRIBE!
Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
K
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
K
Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
Originally Posted by Maximuuus
Originally Posted by neprostoman
Wait, did we just confirm that featherfall is not trash but a spell worthy of use in a start of a fight?? laugh

Not really. Feather fall is supposed to be a reaction so at least if it was, it would also help... but only if you don't fall into a bottomless pit
But damage is not the only issues with pushing.

Hmmmm..... reaction would make sense, Although I still am not counting on a full blown Solasta-style reaction system..

All I want next 8 months is to see class restrictions on spells come into play, reactions (even if it is Larian-sh.. at least give us ready action, shield, counterspell, block) and getting Push more balanced out. Overall that is what is most urgent in my book. And while I can praise Solasta for its combat system, tactical games really needs to up their game on storytelling.. xD.

Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
Originally Posted by neprostoman
Looks like a very good usage of the toolset by the AI. Shove is like a glue that makes AI act relatively smart and creative in a sneakless combat. But of course I can understand your frustration here, but I hope they don't just dumb down those mechanics but make AI differ through difficulty levels. As of now you can actually counter it by athletics and acrobatics, rogues with expertise can have +8 in acrobatics and are very well protected from shove. You can have +5-7 in athletics with any character as well - with some strength, metallic boots and a proficiency.

The AI iis systemic, so it has been trained to find the best tool among the ones it has access for and make use of it. Which is *precisely* the issue here, because Shove being a bonus action and not an action becomes incredibly appealing to use compared to most of the alternatives the AI has at its disposal.
If it was a matter of choosing between attacking/casting OR shoving, the AI would have to weight its options, but right now it can do both and it DOES, generously.

it doesn't help that the range of shove has been exponentially increased (from 1.5m/5 feet suggested by the rules to... the range of an artillery cannon or something?) which also makes any idea of "careful positioning" fundamentally a waste of time in a lot of scenario (like the boat fight) where you simply cannot be placed anywhere where you'd be "safe from the risk of being shoved".

Not that any of this is new and something that was never discussed before, but as they say "repetita iuvant". Or so it seems, given that we always find ourselves making the same points across the months.

Originally Posted by neprostoman
Wait, did we just confirm that featherfall is not trash but a spell worthy of use in a start of a fight?? laugh
Assuming bottomless pits (and there are aplenty) and/or water/lava are not involved.

Last edited by Tuco; 08/08/22 10:19 AM.
Joined: Sep 2017
G
enthusiast
Offline
enthusiast
G
Joined: Sep 2017
Originally Posted by Kimuriel
Originally Posted by neprostoman
Wait, did we just confirm that featherfall is not trash but a spell worthy of use in a start of a fight?? laugh
Featherfall is nice to use in instances with a lot of cliffs or verticality yes. Another good spell later on might be dimension door (not currently in) as it allows you to transport an ally with you to a set location. Think of it as Misty Step +. Is Spirit Guardian in BG3 any good? in Solasta me and a friend are often using that combined with wall of flame placed in a ring around us lol. In BG3 you can only place wall of Flame in a line no?

They could easily implement Dimensional Door; it is very similar to a Summoning spell in DOS2

Joined: Aug 2022
C
stranger
Offline
stranger
C
Joined: Aug 2022
Totally agree with Tuco here. Also "Feather Fall" should be reaction, not bonus action:

LEVEL
1st
CASTING TIME
1 Reaction *

but we all know current implementation of reaction...

Last edited by C0rath; 08/08/22 01:19 PM.
Page 1 of 5 1 2 3 4 5

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5