Larian Banner
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Jun 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
Originally Posted by robertthebard
If the solution is going to be a prompt for every possible reaction, every single time, combat is going to become a nightmarish mishmash of confirmations, more akin to QTEs than actual turn-based combat. Considering that the game isn't based on QTEs, that's counter to what we should be looking for. Going through the whole list of possible reactions at the start of each turn will also lengthen combat, which can already be "slow". What we have isn't ideal, but it's vastly superior to QTE based combat that a steady stream of confirmations could be for reactions. Constantly having to push Yes or No is no different from mashing X. I can play Tomb Raider, or AC 3 if I'm looking for something like that.

Noooo..... reactions are specific things with specific triggers, and are limited in scope by the ruleset; you can use a maximum of one per character per combat round, they're well defined and clear in what can be done and when. You cannot "react with featherfall" at the start of your turn - that's not how reactions work. There is no 'endless stream of confirmations', there is no 'checking every possible reaction at the start of each turn' - You are either commenting disingenuously, or you have misunderstood what reactions are and what a functional reaction system is.

We can, in fact, get there in a crpg - a contemporary game does so, and others on this forum have posted some nice videos of the system in action, actively not slowing down the game... People need to stop saying it can't be done because it already has been. I'd ask what you imagine the "whole list of possible reactions at the start of each turn" is, that you are imagining will be a problem - please; toss a few out there, and name some examples to illustrate your point. If you post up a long list of reactions that would need to be confirmed at the top of each turn/round, and they're factually accurate reactions that would indeed need to be checked at the top of each turn, then you'd probably go along way to convincing people that it would be unwieldy... so... what are your examples? What's the list? Tell me, so that if what you're saying is actually valid I can understand it and revise my own position in that light.

Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Fullscreen dont bother me ... since the game wouldnt continue without our reaction there wouldnt be much to look at anyway.

Quick time event does ... a lot actually ...
This isnt action RPG ... its turn based ... whole game is build on premise that EVERYTHING will wait for player ...
And that premise should IMHO remain intact.

As for that uncany dodge you like so much ...
I would preffer the style Maximuuus suggested ... player would have option to set at the start of every battle wich enemies should be ignored if opourtunity for reaction occurs ...
Yes i know its a little more tedious ... but at least you wouldnt be cheating.

I use Uncanny Dodge as an example because it can be the most prompt-heavy reaction. CAN be, mind you. It isn't always. Also, it's not cheating if the preset allows you to select what damage level you'd want to trigger the ability. Uncanny Dodge rules state that when you are hit, you can choose to half damage. It doesn't specify that it has to be you choose prior to a damage roll.

Finally, setting targets doesn't always work. You never know who in a particular turn is going to hit you with something you want to react to.

Joined: Jun 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
Uncanny dodge is clear, but only if you understand the style writing practices of 5e, which many (perfectly understandably) don't pay attention to until it matters. In this case, the wording on the ability is specific - it's when you are hit. That's a different trigger timing to "When you (or a target) is attacked" and it's different again to "When you Take Damage".

Three examples:

Protection Fighting Style's trigger is when a valid target "is attacked"; you must decide when the attack is declared; this means that you decide before the attack is rolled, and thus before you know whether it would be a hit or not.

Uncanny Dodge is triggered when you "are hit"; you decide when an attack hits you; this means that you do not have to use it before the attack is rolled, and so you cannot waste it on an attack that would miss anyway, but you must decide when the hit is confirmed, before the damage is rolled.

Misty Escape (Warlock fey pact feature) is triggered when you "take damage"; you decide to use it once you take damage - after the attack is declared, after it is rolled and the hit confirmed, and after the damage is rolled.

This is not a 'Dm discretion' thing, it's a RAW thing; as always individual Dms can rule otherwise - but by base rules, it's distinct and clear in its timing, and it's before the damage roll that the decision must be made. If the game tells you the damage first, then it is giving you a very prominent concession that makes the ability more powerful than it is meant to be - it removes a lot of the decision cost of whether to use it or not - however, I'm happy to concede that this may not be a bad thing for a video game setting/translation.

Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
K
journeyman
Offline
journeyman
K
Joined: Jun 2021
Location: Netherlands
Definitely Solasta-esque prompt reaction system. Although maybe make the pop ups less windows 95 spreadshead and make it a bit more visually appealing than aforementioned title (granted budget limitations are a thing). You need some control over your reactions as to decide if to let something pass or not. I mean, I wouldn't waste my spell shield on sacred flame every time. But on higher damage spells it is definitely a thing. Pop up reaction should work fine in BG 3 as it is after all, a turnbased game. And having the option to have your party respond with a readied attack, cantrip or ranged attack would be welcome as well. Makes it possible to lay in wait and such.

A little off topic, but also allow wall of flame (not sure if you can) to be cast in either wall, outer ring or inner ring mode, that way defensive turtling is possible in melee heavy encounters and such. As for the abundance of concentration spells, that is a 5e thing unfortunately. They wanted to do away with doomstacking your mage with stuff like globe of invulnerability, protection from energy, protection from evil, blur, mirror image, mage armour etc before each fight I expect. And no I am currently unaware which ofthese is supposed to be concentration or not. I know blur and mirror image are duration based but I am not sure if that is how they work in 5e or not. Solasta has blur as a concentration spell, but I do not know how much is homebrew in this case. Could be that Solasta homebrewed it, or BG3 can anyone elaborate?

Joined: Aug 2020
addict
Offline
addict
Joined: Aug 2020
Originally Posted by robertthebard
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Originally Posted by snowram
There is already a ~25 pages topic on this subject. It has been discussed to no end on Reddit and on the Steam forums. Larian even acknowledged it. I find it fair to said that this topic is redundant (and your posts only incite for an ad hominem response most of the time).

I will admit that this thread only really exists to clear the air and get some kind of headcount on where people stand on this issue. There was a spat in a different thread where people were claiming that the majority preferred one side or the other, which necessitated this.

If you still think something like this is redundant, this poll was not meant for you to begin with. It's actual hard data for Larian to look at.

I chose to leave it as is, because of the two, that's the better choice, since I would prefer something different, and decided to vote anyway. An option for "Other" would have been preferrable, even as hard data for Larian, because it would indicate that there are more than two sides to this debate, even if what that "Other" option should be isn't ironed out. They can then peruse the myriad of threads to find the most consistent types of feedback and go with that as a template. As it is, this poll is more self-serving than useful, since it's essentially limited to "You are either with us, or against us"...

I see your point and it's not an unreasonable one. Normally I'd be inclined to agree with you even. But Ithink that this pole with its firm binary would be useful to Larian for a specific reason. Because I don't think we're getting Solasta-level reactions, I don't think that's even a possibility at this stage. We're definitely getting some flavor of 'Other'. So a binary pole like this can serve to tell Larian where they could most benefit in leaning between the two extremes.

Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I use Uncanny Dodge as an example because it can be the most prompt-heavy reaction. CAN be, mind you. It isn't always.
You do and I’m still not sure why.
There aren’t really that many chances per round to trigger an uncanny dodge.
How many times do you expect your rogue (out of the whole party) to be the target of enemy attacks?

Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by Niara
Three examples:

Protection Fighting Style's trigger is when a valid target "is attacked"; you must decide when the attack is declared; this means that you decide before the attack is rolled, and thus before you know whether it would be a hit or not.

Uncanny Dodge is triggered when you "are hit"; you decide when an attack hits you; this means that you do not have to use it before the attack is rolled, and so you cannot waste it on an attack that would miss anyway, but you must decide when the hit is confirmed, before the damage is rolled.

Misty Escape (Warlock fey pact feature) is triggered when you "take damage"; you decide to use it once you take damage - after the attack is declared, after it is rolled and the hit confirmed, and after the damage is rolled.
Yay! I finaly understand some rule corectly! laugh ^_^


In the words of the senior NCO instructor at cadet battalion:
“If you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying. And if you got caught you didn’t try hard enough!”
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
veteran
Online Confused
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
Originally Posted by Tuco
You do and I’m still not sure why.
There aren’t really that many chances per round to trigger an uncanny dodge.
How many times do you expect your rogue (out of the whole party) to be the target of enemy attacks?
I would agree. From my experience in Solasta, the most outrageus examples were Smite and Metamagic - none of which are reactions, and could and should be implemented differently.

Another thing, that I don't think people who didn't play Solasta keep in mind, is that you get one reaction per round. If you are surrounded by bunch of samey units, then you will likely just fire something like uncanny dodge on the first opportunity because: a) it doesn't really matter if you dodge this goblin or another b) you don't know if you will be attacked again. Once used up, no more popups for you for that character this turn.

Joined: Sep 2017
Location: Norway
S
addict
Offline
addict
S
Joined: Sep 2017
Location: Norway
I want agency without unimmersive prompts - which means a slow-motion reaction system. If I had to choose between the two extremes offered as options here, then I would go with the least of two evils; automatic reactions to not disrupt combat flow too much.

Last edited by Seraphael; 08/08/22 01:52 PM.
Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
Originally Posted by Niara
Uncanny dodge is clear, but only if you understand the style writing practices of 5e, which many (perfectly understandably) don't pay attention to until it matters. In this case, the wording on the ability is specific - it's when you are hit. That's a different trigger timing to "When you (or a target) is attacked" and it's different again to "When you Take Damage".

Three examples:

Protection Fighting Style's trigger is when a valid target "is attacked"; you must decide when the attack is declared; this means that you decide before the attack is rolled, and thus before you know whether it would be a hit or not.

Uncanny Dodge is triggered when you "are hit"; you decide when an attack hits you; this means that you do not have to use it before the attack is rolled, and so you cannot waste it on an attack that would miss anyway, but you must decide when the hit is confirmed, before the damage is rolled.

Misty Escape (Warlock fey pact feature) is triggered when you "take damage"; you decide to use it once you take damage - after the attack is declared, after it is rolled and the hit confirmed, and after the damage is rolled.

This is not a 'Dm discretion' thing, it's a RAW thing; as always individual Dms can rule otherwise - but by base rules, it's distinct and clear in its timing, and it's before the damage roll that the decision must be made. If the game tells you the damage first, then it is giving you a very prominent concession that makes the ability more powerful than it is meant to be - it removes a lot of the decision cost of whether to use it or not - however, I'm happy to concede that this may not be a bad thing for a video game setting/translation.

I understand what you're saying, but I will counter with two points:

1. Other reactions specifically say "before dice are rolled" or "before results are revealed". This reaction does not. Thus, if one wants to get REALLY technical, they can argue that the wording does not say "before damage dice are rolled". It simply says "if a rogue is hit by any attack". Although I agree with you that the meaning of what is written is PROBABLY that it should be before damage is rolled, there are A LOT of posts online with people arguing whether it should be before or after damage dice are rolled especially since many players and DMs roll damage dice WITH attack rolls. Also, plenty of examples exist on various posts of people saying that they usually save Uncanny Dodge for when an enemy Crits them or does a high powered attack. So, I would say that since there is so much room for debate on this topic, it is not "clear" that Uncanny Dodge should be decided immediately after being hit but before damage is rolled.

2. Even IF we had a WotC guru pop on and say, "Nope. Niara's totally right. 100%. In Tabletop, Uncanny Dodge is supposed to be decided right after being hit but before damage is rolled," what I'm suggesting is that in order to make presets work well to minimize or even negate the need for a prompt for Uncanny Dodge every time a rogue is hit by an enemy, Larian COULD have a preset option based on Damage Done to the Rogue. It wouldn't be a HUGE change in the overall mechanics to make it so that players aren't interrupted every time a Rogue is hit with a prompt/popup. ALSO, it works to the benefit of the player, not the enemy NPCs. Let's face it, you know the AI is going to work however the AI is going to work with their rogues, probably using Uncanny Dodge whenever damage YOU deal is high, so why not make it so that players get the same benefit - and even IF the AI is playing where it decides before damage is determined, somewhere in their algorithms, would it be so terrible if the player is given a slight advantage of allowing them to only trigger Uncanny Dodge if damage is greater than a certain value? It's really not a game-breaking mechanic that I'm suggesting, and it could seriously cut down on how often prompts/popups occur.

And, in terms of Uncanny Dodge, I use this example because in Solasta it is one of the prompts/popups I receive more frequently with my rogue character after he gets hit. I'm also thinking about battles like the goblin camp that has 30 enemies swarming your 4 characters. Yes. Absolutely. Your rogue is going to be a frequent target out of 4 PCs. 25% probable chance that the rogue will be targetted, and out of 30, that's almost 8 enemies in a single round. If my rogue is close to a bugbear or an ogre, I'm probably going to say No to most of those prompts until the ogre or bugbear comes and hits my rogue. GRANTED, it's ONLY going to trigger a prompt if the rogue is hit, so it's not like there will be 8 prompts, but my point is that IF I can set a preset that says, "Only if the damage is more than 10 will Uncanny Dodge trigger" then I may not even get a single prompt that entire round. Even if Goblins 2, 4, and 10 are the only ones to hit, if they only do 1-9 damage each, I'm good. I didn't waste my reaction on Uncanny Dodge to reduce damage in half for something so petty. But if Goblin 10 hit and criticalled me for a total of 18 damage, yeah... I might want to half that to 9. With the preset, that would be like 1 prompt. "You just got hit for 18 damage by Goblin 10. Uncanny Dodge?" Yes please. I got hit 3 times, but only the last was worth my time. Absolute Prompt system? 3 prompts that round. Preset using damage? 1 prompt that round. 1/3 of the total prompts used simply by a slightly more intuitive preset system that I, the player, can set before combat or even during my turn if I want to.

Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Tuco
You do and I’m still not sure why.
There aren’t really that many chances per round to trigger an uncanny dodge.
How many times do you expect your rogue (out of the whole party) to be the target of enemy attacks?
I would agree. From my experience in Solasta, the most outrageus examples were Smite and Metamagic - none of which are reactions, and could and should be implemented differently.

Another thing, that I don't think people who didn't play Solasta keep in mind, is that you get one reaction per round. If you are surrounded by bunch of samey units, then you will likely just fire something like uncanny dodge on the first opportunity because: a) it doesn't really matter if you dodge this goblin or another b) you don't know if you will be attacked again. Once used up, no more popups for you for that character this turn.

Smite isn't a reaction except when it applies to an AOO, which is a reaction. Thus, it is pretty much a reaction when an enemy triggers AOO and you are asked whether you want to use Smite. This is why many view it as a reaction.

For Smite, it can be mostly handled like Battlemaster Maneuvers when used on your character's turn. When an AOO, a prompt is going to ask you whether you want to AOO or not anyway, so asking whether you want to use Smite with AOO wouldn't take much more work.

That said, both could easily be handled via presets as I've been trying to explain on the megathread. For Smite, you could set basic Current Enemy HP levels for each spell slot level for Smite. If the enemy has less than (let's just say) 10 Current HP, why would you want to use Smite at all? You'll likely kill the enemy without Smite, so why waste a spell slot. But, if the enemy has 10-20 HP, maybe you might want a little extra punch on your AOO to kill him as he's trying to get past you to hit your mage. If the enemy has 20-30 HP, you might want to use Level 2 spell slot. If you critically hit an enemy, you might want to REALLY use a higher level especially if it's a powerful enemy, like a Gith Patrol member or the Matriarch. Presets could be set so that if you Critically Hit an enemy with more than X Current Hit Points, you apply Smite (when doing an AOO). Thus... no need for a popup/prompt. Again, think about it from the perspective of, "When would I NOT want to use Smite?" Would you ever use Smite if you Critically Hit an enemy using a Greataxe when the enemy has 5 HP? No. Why waste a spell slot? So why not allow players to set presets to cut down on prompts to avoid situations they would never trigger the spell for?

Joined: Apr 2021
V
member
Offline
member
V
Joined: Apr 2021
This poll doesn’t make much sense without a third option. Many people like neither of two.


Romances in RPGs brought us to this
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jul 2014
Location: Italy
Originally Posted by VenusP
This poll doesn’t make much sense without a third option. Many people like neither of two.
Eh, if anything the poll is already doing a favor to the (STILL) unpopular option, because it doesn't clarify that a prompt-based reaction system can still be optionally automated with toggles, while the opposite isn't necessarily true.

Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
I think the poll has done a LOT of good, actually. By being extreme, it shows what people prefer if Larian chooses 1 extreme over the other. It shows that, in general, people would prefer a prompt system as opposed to a preset system. In other words, when some forum members have said, "People want battle to be fluid and not have prompts and interruptions," that statement is now obviously false - at least from a THIS FORUM perspective. Most people on this forum want a prompt-like system similar to Solasta, meaning we're all leaning in that direction more than a preset system like what we have currently.

Give people a "Maybe this or that or kinda a this or that" and it'll get out of control and prove nothing. That's my opinion, anyway. I mean, look at it. It's overwhelmingly pro-prompt versus Automatic Reactions. It's not even close. It just shows Larian, if they're paying attention, that we want something where we have more control and that reactions are VERY important to us for this game.

Last edited by GM4Him; 08/08/22 03:25 PM.
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Oct 2020
Location: Liberec
Originally Posted by VenusP
This poll doesn’t make much sense without a third option. Many people like neither of two.
You cant really make third option here, if you think about it ... "anything in between" would be the third option ... and litteraly everyone who isnt truly devoted to each system would pick it, even tho most likely no two of them would have same idea. laugh


In the words of the senior NCO instructor at cadet battalion:
“If you ain’t cheating you ain’t trying. And if you got caught you didn’t try hard enough!”
Joined: Jun 2020
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Jun 2020
Originally Posted by GM4Him
1. Other reactions specifically say "before dice are rolled" or "before results are revealed". This reaction does not.

No, that's correct, it doesn't, because it is not the type of situation for which that terminology is used, in the official style writing. The official style phrasing that people are most familiar with is "You make this decision after the dice are rolled but before the DM tells you the result" (this was redacted in house to the more neutral "before the result is determined" for most present day publications, but I think a few instances of the former and its variants still slipped through here and there). That type of terminology is used, specifically, in situations dealing with spells or abilities that influence the outcomes of ability checks, attack rolls and saving throws. This is not that situation, so it does not use that language. It uses the language I described above, for the reason I described above. I'm only supplying information; what you do with it, take or leave, is up to you.

Again, this was just to be informative because, as I said before, I'm fine with this allowance being given in a video game format, and it's an acceptable enough translation for smoothing the gaming experience for players to put the decision point at a stage when they can simply see what damage they're mitigating and decide then.

((As an aside, saving Uncanny dodge for crits is perfectly acceptable and accurate - being told that you've been crit is the correct timing for the trigger, before damage is rolled. Similarly, saving it for when a powerful foe uses some special attack is also legitimate, since those details are the subject of Dm story-telling and roleplay, and it is up to the player to decide whether they think that the hit they've just taken is going to be a big one or not, before damage is rolled.))

It's 2am, this is a bit off topic, I'm very tired and I probably should not have responded, but I'm going to leave this here anyway - please take it in the spirit of sharing information and not as an argument of any kind.

Joined: Oct 2021
P
stranger
Offline
stranger
P
Joined: Oct 2021
I had the idea a long time ago that Larian should have started by implementing a real time pause on top of turn based mode to handle reactions. It would require setting up the entire combat system differently, like having action bars that are being filled above character's heads (we could even call them timers where your character can react) when they are attacking or casting a spell, unrolled dices appearing over people being targeted by DC checks, leaving (without the disengage action) opportunity attack zones having a small dodge-like animation before moving where the player can take the opportunity attack action, and so on.

This would allow developers to implement things like portent with ease, and it would make reactions actual reactions.

The problem is, this should have been implemented from the start, and combat speed could have been focused on later. There could even have been accessibility options to make action bars last longer. Or smaller if the person can react quickly.

Last edited by prop85; 08/08/22 04:19 PM.
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
veteran
Online Confused
veteran
Joined: Mar 2020
Location: Belfast
Originally Posted by prop85
I had the idea a long time ago that Larian should have started by implementing a real time pause on top of turn based mode to handle reactions.
But.... why? This concept pops up every once in a while and I just don't see the point of it. For those who don't want distrupions it is still a distruption as you wait for the quicktime even to finish. Surely, once the turn is finished your hands are still on controller/keyboard so dismissing reaction prompt wouldn't be a bigger time investment then those "opportunity" windows.

And if something unexpected happen you expect player to analyze the situation and make their decision in a limited timeframe... in a turn based game. Reactions means that it is your character reacting to enemy action, not testing player's reactions grin

Joined: Feb 2021
veteran
Offline
veteran
Joined: Feb 2021
Originally Posted by Niara
Originally Posted by GM4Him
1. Other reactions specifically say "before dice are rolled" or "before results are revealed". This reaction does not.

No, that's correct, it doesn't, because it is not the type of situation for which that terminology is used, in the official style writing. The official style phrasing that people are most familiar with is "You make this decision after the dice are rolled but before the DM tells you the result" (this was redacted in house to the more neutral "before the result is determined" for most present day publications, but I think a few instances of the former and its variants still slipped through here and there). That type of terminology is used, specifically, in situations dealing with spells or abilities that influence the outcomes of ability checks, attack rolls and saving throws. This is not that situation, so it does not use that language. It uses the language I described above, for the reason I described above. I'm only supplying information; what you do with it, take or leave, is up to you.

Again, this was just to be informative because, as I said before, I'm fine with this allowance being given in a video game format, and it's an acceptable enough translation for smoothing the gaming experience for players to put the decision point at a stage when they can simply see what damage they're mitigating and decide then.

((As an aside, saving Uncanny dodge for crits is perfectly acceptable and accurate - being told that you've been crit is the correct timing for the trigger, before damage is rolled. Similarly, saving it for when a powerful foe uses some special attack is also legitimate, since those details are the subject of Dm story-telling and roleplay, and it is up to the player to decide whether they think that the hit they've just taken is going to be a big one or not, before damage is rolled.))

It's 2am, this is a bit off topic, I'm very tired and I probably should not have responded, but I'm going to leave this here anyway - please take it in the spirit of sharing information and not as an argument of any kind.

Sigh. Taken perfectly as you'd hoped and quite relieved. I was hoping you wouldn't be upset with me for being technical. I kinda hesitated a lot before I responded wondering if it was even worth it.

Quite frankly, I'm not on either side - Camp Prompts or Camp Presets. I'm slightly leaning towards Camp Prompts because frankly more control errs in the direction of safety in my opinion, but I would definitely like to have a reduction in prompts. I don't need a prompt for Counterspell every time someone casts Enlarge, Fire Bolt, Barkskin, Healing Word, Magic Missile, Shield, Mage Hand, or any of the million other spells that I wouldn't use a level 3 spell slot to stop.

Joined: Dec 2020
old hand
OP Offline
old hand
Joined: Dec 2020
Originally Posted by Tuco
Eh, if anything the poll is already doing a favor to the (STILL) unpopular option, because it doesn't clarify that a prompt-based reaction system can still be optionally automated with toggles, while the opposite isn't necessarily true.
Hm, good point. Guess I should amend the original post to clarify exactly what I mean by using the voting for the two extremes to inform which approach a middle ground should revolve around.

Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5