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#826482 11/08/22 11:49 PM
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[Linked Image from guides.gamepressure.com]

They're just too skinny, ya know? It's like they completely skipped leg day at the gym. Dwarves are supposed to be sturdy, and they even used to have a racial trait called stability, but when you look at how dainty their legs and feet are, it seems like it should be easy to topple them over. I don't think the models need a complete overhaul, but I'd like it if their legs and feet were more substantial to match the burly arms and gorilla hands they've got going on. Female proportions are a lot better in comparison. Right now the males just kind of look like Johnny Bravo.

Swagnar #826490 12/08/22 01:56 AM
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Yeah, there are some real oddities in the proportions of the smaller races - these skinny-legged dwarves, big-headed halflings, and giant-handed gnomes. I think there are some earlier detailed threads about models for smaller races on this forum, though the only specific one I can bring to mind is a good analysis of issues with the halfling model by Niara.

Swagnar #826497 12/08/22 02:55 AM
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I just made this forum account because I've been playing a while and I wanted to get it off my chest. Ideally each race would have a few body types to choose from(at least a small/medium/large), but at the very least I'd like the small races(especially Dwarves) to have more sensible proportions.

[Linked Image from static.wikia.nocookie.net]

Beef up the legs, calves, and make the feet bigger in proportion to the hands.

Last edited by Swagnar; 13/08/22 12:00 AM.
Swagnar #826501 12/08/22 05:13 AM
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The female dwarf models are pretty decent, all considered, honestly; of all of our smaller races, they look the most satisfying right now (their lower legs could afford to be a bit bulkier - the tapering toward the feet is too much for dwarves). Male dwarf models have very 'fantasy-unnatural' proportion distortion, and thus don't look like believable, living creatures that could actually exist as a species, which, unless a creature is innately magical and not native to the material plane, designers *should* always strive for.

I would come at the dwarf models from both directions - yes the lower body could be stocked up a little more, but it doesn't need much; the issue is the disparity between that and the extremely deformed upper body; you can make a dwarf satisfyingly barrel-chested and hardy-looking without going to this deformed extreme. If they keep the shoulder width, but pull in the chest distension a little, it would make a surprising difference to the overall visual aesthetic of the dwarf male model.

==

I kind of do want to apologise to everyone; I had honestly intended, in the early days, to do these full model break downs and analyses for each of the races that needed it - and dwarves were next on my list - but I burned myself out a bit, and as time has gone on I've grown disillusioned of having any actual impact. Nothing needs as much attention and change as the halflings, and it's been hard to muster the focus and willpower to dedicate the time needed to doing the same for the other races that need less overall work.

Swagnar #826509 12/08/22 06:57 AM
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Female dwarves look good.

The male dwarves are frankenstein monsters.

Swagnar #826522 12/08/22 10:02 AM
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+1 Female dwarves have decent-looking bodies and decent armor models. Male dwarves look look a bit deformed and the armor doesn't help with that at all, because what looks ok on a human-length body will look like a kilt on a dwarf and emphasize all the wrong parts.

Female/male halflings & gnomes still sort of squat / bend their knees in some cutscenes because the feet are spaced for a taller model (human male/female). This is a lot less visible with dwarven Tavs (because they are slightly taller) but does show up in certain cutscenes where Tav has to hold a pose and the camera is angled sharply upwards. Ideally, in the final version, these three races won't look like they're trying to sit on an invisible chair (or poop standing wink ).


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Niara #826531 12/08/22 11:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Niara
I kind of do want to apologise to everyone; I had honestly intended, in the early days, to do these full model break downs and analyses for each of the races that needed it - and dwarves were next on my list - but I burned myself out a bit, and as time has gone on I've grown disillusioned of having any actual impact. Nothing needs as much attention and change as the halflings, and it's been hard to muster the focus and willpower to dedicate the time needed to doing the same for the other races that need less overall work.

No need to apologise and I completely agree halflings are the race that most needs change. I for one found the way you went about the halfling analysis really helped develop the way I thought about the other models, so thank you!

Other than that, I agree with the emerging consensus here: female dwarves are pretty good but their legs need to be beefier and feet bigger, male dwarves need the same but also slimmer torsos and smaller hands.

I’ve now played the game as both a female dwarf and a female gnome and on the whole was happy with the way they were animated, though Neleothesze makes a good point about the stances. I was happy with the gnome model apart from the huge hands, and while the female gnome faces are mainly either too human or too childlike, that’s been covered in another thread.

Halflings though … I’ve just recently played around with the character creator and finally managed to make just one male halfling that I think I could live with. Making a female halfling I’d like to play has so far defeated me. I just hope that the fact that the gnome is so much better - hands aside - reflects Larian’s developing sophistication with handling smaller races and they’re planning to go back an apply what they’ve learned to races that were in EA from the beginning.

Swagnar #826532 12/08/22 12:10 PM
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The broad shoulders on the male dwarves are fine but the narrow waist ruins the overall proportions. They should be thick set, sturdy and not like some gym bunny who neglected his legs. Legs could also be a little longer. Female dwarves are more anatomically tolerable at least.

Etruscan #826534 12/08/22 12:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Etruscan
The broad shoulders on the male dwarves are fine but the narrow waist ruins the overall proportions. They should be thick set, sturdy and not like some gym bunny who neglected his legs. Legs could also be a little longer.

Hmm, personally I’d go for making the male dwarf chest and possibly shoulders a bit narrower rather than waist wider, and still think they’d look pretty stocky. But making the waist wider would be a valid alternative option for bringing the torso into proportion, though I think you’re right that in that case the legs would need to be a bit longer as well as chunkier. And even then I’d reduce the chest distension as Niara suggested so it didn’t look quite as much as though they’ve always just taken a huge breath in.

Last edited by The_Red_Queen; 12/08/22 12:24 PM.
Etruscan #826535 12/08/22 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Etruscan
The broad shoulders on the male dwarves are fine but the narrow waist ruins the overall proportions. They should be thick set, sturdy and not like some gym bunny who neglected his legs. Legs could also be a little longer. Female dwarves are more anatomically tolerable at least.

Eh, the idea that male dwarves are "stocky"/broad of shoulders in itself is fine, but they went a bit overboard with the overall proportions.
It could surely be tuned down a bit without compromising the concept in any way.

Swagnar #826538 12/08/22 01:02 PM
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By the way, while we’re on the subject of dwarves, what do we think of their heads?

I used head 4 for my female dwarf barbarian and was very happy with it. I find female head 5 too childish and head 1 to have the features oddly squished into the middle of the face, but the others are okay. I’d really like there to be an older/tougher face though, a kind of female counterpart to male head 3.

Male heads have the opposite problem. Some decent seasoned warrior heads but head 5 seems the only younger head and is a chinless wonder … though I suppose that could be covered by a beard.

And speaking of beards, dwarves are particularly vulnerable to the fact that facial hair is still not well done, though older dwarves can benefit from the fact that fuller beards now look okay when greyed (the sparser facial hair still looks extremely poor in my view).

Finally, it may be stereotyping but I think dwarves are the characters that least suit the currently available custom voices, at least until we get half-orcs. Voice 2 was kind of okay for my female dwarf but I’d have preferred something a bit older, deeper and more resonant. But the two custom voices for men - which in my opinion are way too similar in any case - in no way seem deep or sonorous enough to be issuing from those huge chests. (But please no poorly done fake Scottish accents for dwarves … though a good Scottish custom accent would make me feel right at home.)

EDIT: I should have made clear my comments about the voices are about the English language version. I realise that’s not the only one!

Last edited by The_Red_Queen; 12/08/22 01:18 PM.
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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
I find female head 5 too childish and head 1 to have the features oddly squished into the middle of the face, but the others are okay.

Different heads for different character types, simple as that smile
It is much easier to roleplay a "gifted" 8 INT dwarven magician when she/he has a childish face. I will be glad if they add more heads, but I am against removing the old ones for them being not beautiful enough or smth. Because beuty is a stretch on its own, can matter anything to anyone... But I am happy that the game allows me to make some vile looking creeps like this gentleman.

Niara #826544 12/08/22 01:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Niara
The female dwarf models are pretty decent, all considered, honestly; of all of our smaller races, they look the most satisfying right now (their lower legs could afford to be a bit bulkier - the tapering toward the feet is too much for dwarves). Male dwarf models have very 'fantasy-unnatural' proportion distortion, and thus don't look like believable, living creatures that could actually exist as a species, which, unless a creature is innately magical and not native to the material plane, designers *should* always strive for.

I would come at the dwarf models from both directions - yes the lower body could be stocked up a little more, but it doesn't need much; the issue is the disparity between that and the extremely deformed upper body; you can make a dwarf satisfyingly barrel-chested and hardy-looking without going to this deformed extreme. If they keep the shoulder width, but pull in the chest distension a little, it would make a surprising difference to the overall visual aesthetic of the dwarf male model.

==

I kind of do want to apologise to everyone; I had honestly intended, in the early days, to do these full model break downs and analyses for each of the races that needed it - and dwarves were next on my list - but I burned myself out a bit, and as time has gone on I've grown disillusioned of having any actual impact. Nothing needs as much attention and change as the halflings, and it's been hard to muster the focus and willpower to dedicate the time needed to doing the same for the other races that need less overall work.

Hopefully I didn't step on anyone's toes with my post. I didn't pay close attention to halflings since it's not a race I typically play. I definitely could see halflings being reworked so they look more like this:

[Linked Image from worldanvil.com]

And less like... this:

[Linked Image from dndbeyond.com]

But I see your point on Dwarves and their chests. Barrel-chested is definitely a quality dwarves should typically have, but it might be too much on the current model.

[Linked Image from db4sgowjqfwig.cloudfront.net]

Something along these lines maybe. Or even one the example I posted earlier. This is obviously an aesthetic preference, but to me, what makes a dwarf look strong and sturdy are features like thick limbs, specifically forearms and calves, and larger hands and feet in proportion to their body that might look disproportionate on a human, but give dwarves a very stout appearance.

Last edited by Swagnar; 12/08/22 01:48 PM.
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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
By the way, while we’re on the subject of dwarves, what do we think of their heads?

I used head 4 for my female dwarf barbarian and was very happy with it. I find female head 5 too childish and head 1 to have the features oddly squished into the middle of the face, but the others are okay. I’d really like there to be an older/tougher face though, a kind of female counterpart to male head 3.

Male heads have the opposite problem. Some decent seasoned warrior heads but head 5 seems the only younger head and is a chinless wonder … though I suppose that could be covered by a beard.

And speaking of beards, dwarves are particularly vulnerable to the fact that facial hair is still not well done, though older dwarves can benefit from the fact that fuller beards now look okay when greyed (the sparser facial hair still looks extremely poor in my view).

Finally, it may be stereotyping but I think dwarves are the characters that least suit the currently available custom voices, at least until we get half-orcs. Voice 2 was kind of okay for my female dwarf but I’d have preferred something a bit older, deeper and more resonant. But the two custom voices for men - which in my opinion are way too similar in any case - in no way seem deep or sonorous enough to be issuing from those huge chests. (But please no poorly done fake Scottish accents for dwarves … though a good Scottish custom accent would make me feel right at home.)

EDIT: I should have made clear my comments about the voices are about the English language version. I realise that’s not the only one!

None of the male voices do it for me when it comes to dwarves, or any rugged character for that matter. Obviously I'm a sucker for the stereotypical Scottish accent, but just something more gruff/harsh sounding would go a long way for me.

More beard options would absolutely be a plus, especially braided ones. I'm hoping we could get some fixes to dwarves whenever Duergar are made available since those are my personal favorite flavor of dwarves(I just think grey skin and white hair are neat).

I think I usually pick head 3 for female dwarves, because I think it's the prettiest one, but what I'd like to see is maybe the same heads with like an age picker like in Elden Ring for young/mature/aged. For male dwarves I like head 4. Has a not too young/not too old appearance.

neprostoman #826546 12/08/22 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by neprostoman
Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
I find female head 5 too childish and head 1 to have the features oddly squished into the middle of the face, but the others are okay.

Different heads for different character types, simple as that smile
It is much easier to roleplay a "gifted" 8 INT dwarven magician when she/he has a childish face. I will be glad if they add more heads, but I am against removing the old ones for them being not beautiful enough or smth. Because beuty is a stretch on its own, can matter anything to anyone... But I am happy that the game allows me to make some vile looking creeps like this gentleman.


Fair enough. After all, I used gnome head 3 for my female svirfneblin rogue which is definitely childish, but ended up really satisfied with it as it suited a character who loved being underestimated. Just because I can’t come up with a concept for a childish dwarf I want to play doesn’t mean others can’t!

I agree we shouldn’t remove heads that aren’t “pretty”, and while I’d maybe like to adjust some that don’t look as though they could belong to real beings, even within a fantasy context, I realise that’s probably subjective, too. What I would like to see is more choice, especially when there seems to be a head type missing which is made obvious in some cases when, eg there’s an older, scarred dwarf male but no female counterpart, and more human-looking, conventionally attractive female dwarves but not the male equivalent. Not that I’d play the latter even if there were, most likely, but I would the former.

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Good point about the PC voices for dwarves.

Both two male and female voices are so similar to begin with I'm having difficulty telling them apart. The future voices need much more persona to set them apart. Like gruff, lighthearted, stoic, soft spoken...

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On the subject of voices, we really should bring back the high-strung evangelist from NWN just for its comedic value.

Swagnar #826553 12/08/22 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Swagnar
None of the male voices do it for me when it comes to dwarves, or any rugged character for that matter. Obviously I'm a sucker for the stereotypical Scottish accent, but just something more gruff/harsh sounding would go a long way for me.

Yep, agreed. And I don't have any objection to Scottish accents for dwarves or indeed any character in principle, it's just that having lived in Scotland for nearly 20 years I'm sensitive to bad ones!

Originally Posted by 1varangian
Good point about the PC voices for dwarves. Both two male and female voices are so similar to begin with I'm having difficulty telling them apart.

Interesting. I don't have any difficulty distinguishing female voice 4 (posher, more "refined", suitable for noble types, high elves and some drow) from voice 2 (less posh and suitable for more roguish and "lower class" characters), but then I'm English myself so I'm going to pick up on subtler distinctions between accents and have have different associations for them, and you shouldn't need that in order to be able to tell the difference so I take your feedback that they're too similar. And even I struggle to distinguish between the two custom male voices. Voice 3 is *maybe* a bit deeper and less prissy than voice 1 but they're both still what I would code as posh southern. For the full game, I say bring on the different accents. We already have some Scottish (e.g. Edowin's male disciple), Irish (e.g. Nettie ... I think) and Welsh (e.g. Benryn) in the setting, so different accents from Britain/Ireland are already established as suitable for the setting. And any English-language accent could be appropriate for a character who isn't originally from the area, or for someone who understandably doesn't care about consistency of accents with ones from a whole other world!

Originally Posted by 1varangian
The future voices need much more persona to set them apart. Like gruff, lighthearted, stoic, soft spoken...

Originally Posted by Swagnar
On the subject of voices, we really should bring back the high-strung evangelist from NWN just for its comedic value.

I'd cautiously agree we need voices with different moods, but with the caveat that I am still desperately hoping for more voiced lines from our custom protagonists in the final game, and would opt for that and fewer/more generic voice choices over more choice/more specific characterisation and fewer spoken lines. But I do agree that, especially with fewer choices, they need to be more distinct and that gaps especially for tougher and more evil characters need to be plugged.

Originally Posted by Swagnar
I think I usually pick head 3 for female dwarves, because I think it's the prettiest one, but what I'd like to see is maybe the same heads with like an age picker like in Elden Ring for young/mature/aged. For male dwarves I like head 4. Has a not too young/not too old appearance.

Yeah, pretty isn't usually what I'm going for with either my male or female dwarves, but all choices are valid! And saying that, I actually thought my dwarven barbarian was pretty hot, even though - or maybe because - I'm a straight female.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

But seriously, yes the ability to have two or three different ages available for each head and perhaps different scars (I'd be happy if these were added as "tattoo" options) would really help realise different characters without having to add a bunch more heads.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Yeah, pretty isn't usually what I'm going for with either my male or female dwarves, but all choices are valid! And saying that, I actually thought my dwarven barbarian was pretty hot, even though - or maybe because - I'm a straight female.
I'm a cis straight male, but even I can appreciate a more "feral" woman, as I've seen plenty of good female half-orc art that I would absolutely "romance"

As for the age thing, I'd probably like it best if it were a normal map that applied to the entire body to add levels of wrinkles. Maybe also add a muscle definition choice as well.

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The Female Dwarf models definitely look better than the Male models, especially in the overall proportions, but then I feel like the good work on the Female Dwarves models is sort of wasted on me. Sadly, I'm pretty sure I'm a Male Dwarf chauvinist when it comes to D&D, which is perhaps not so easy to admit, but just trying to be honest here. With none of the other PC races do I consistently pick one gender over another, I'll mix it up with Elves and Tiefs and all the rest, but when it comes to Dwarves all my defaults are hella beardy and I don't branch out hehe. I think they just never really put in the work in-Universe to give us a truly iconic Female Dwarf character, who might immediately come to mind and smooth over a half century rough patch to make the idea appealing. Instead D&D just sort glossed over that fact like 'No biggie. They exist now too. Get with the program already.' But that's also why it's disappointing that we can't recruit Nettie in BG3, cause she's done up pretty well I thought. Even if definitely a different take, to do a Druid. If she was a companion then we'd get another way into the thing, and a clear angle, some establishing lore or characterization to build from etc. But as it stands now we don't have any Dwarves to fill out our crews. For my part I'd just like one decent archetypical dwarf companion for the traditionalists. You know just gruff, squat, barrel of a dwarf with a beard to the floor and an Axe or a Hammer so you know exactly where you stand. I just feel like Dwarves are where you want a touchstone and an immutable trope. I mean when it comes to depth, Dwarves should probably stick to the gemstones, at least for me. I'd like one as a companion for the showcase, since it's probably not a go to for my PC, but at least if we had a Dwarf or two who could tag along. I don't know, but yeah, right now the Male dwarves' legs all look pretty goofy. It's like the lower half of the figure is 50% smaller than it should be. Their beards are weak. They don't have a decent voice set. Right now Dwarves might as well not even exist in the EA as a playable race, since they never make it out the starting gate for me.

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