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Originally Posted by Niara
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have problems to imagine how a good looking intimate scene between a tall person and a very small person would look like.
Especially if they try to use the same scene for the same event when one char (you + companion or other NPC) or both chars (you + dream ) could be any race or gender.

Did you ever take a peek at the thread about it, Mad? Small characters need their own choreography and considerations that have to be taken into account - they do for all scenes, but most especially so for ones that involve interacting with other character models directly as intimate scenes do - and for the vast majority of scenes you cannot simply use the same anchor points and animations as medium sized participants. The thread is a lengthy but mature discussion of what needs to be done and considered, and why, and if you're finding yourself in a "can't imagine how they would" situation, and leaning into the idea that they shouldn't because of that, then I'd highly recommend having a read of the thread (Though I'd also strongly suggest you drop me a line for the intact version of the discussion, that contains the visual refs throughout, otherwise following along is pretty difficult).

Gnomes definitely look a lot better all around than halflings - the cynical part of me says that the feedback was taken into consideration and gnomes got some attention and care as a result of it, but halflings will be left as they are - but even they have some of the big issues still.

I read through most of the thread (outch, my eyes rolleyes)
I saw your examples of you + dream (when holding hands one of them must be floating or the other one buried in the ground) and I saw the quiz ( which of these characters is the halfling?)
I did not see an example for a good looking scene between a small and a medium character.
To be fair, this thread wants to point at problems in this game, not to show the top 10 of best looking romance scenes in this game.
When I say " I cannot imagine how . . ." this is a problem with my imagination. It does not mean it is impossible and it does not mean that the devs should not try. It simply mean that I do not know how to fix the problems that currently exist.

The examples from Lord of the Rings where you compare humans and halflings are great. This is really 15 years old?

a bit off topic:
Maybe its a problem of how good graphics have become.
This was less of a problem when characters were just a few pixels or polygons.
I think Mario has a cap and mustache because they could not make good looking mouth and hair with a few pixels.
Now we have the problem "How do I create and animate a fantasy race in a realistic way?"

Maybe this is why I often like anime or cartoon style.
It is not intended to be realistic so devs can do some stuff that looks cool but is unrealistic.
Just my personal taste, not a suggestion how to do things.


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Niara Offline OP
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Yeah, Lotro has held up surprisingly well, given how old it is ^.^

But in regards to the concept of small sized characters in romance scenes, I was actually referring to the thread specifically abut that, and the challenges it presents (with the aim at giving Larian everything they need to get them right). This thread here: Focused Examination: Intimate Choreography with Small-sized Characters

It's a mature-themed thread, though, and it talks about sex and intimacy, with respect to positioning, choreography and scene-shooting, in a tactful and tasteful, but still up-front, manner, so it may not be everyone's cup of tea. Rather than trying to read that thread directly, though, if you are interested, I'd recommend you (and anyone else) to drop me a message for a link to the unedited version of it - the mods had to remove the images that accompanied the discussion, and it's hard to wrap your head around it and follow along without them.

I'll leave that for now that, since it's a separate topic ^.^

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Oh yes, I tried to play a halfling, and something was really off. Halfling are supposed to appear more agile, and this one almost seemed to have difficulties to move. I completely agree with the OP and other similar posts.
This is unfortunately disturbing and not fair for most short people, like me or other persons in my family (sigh) ...

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I've found that using reduce size spell on a human looks a lot more like a halfling than the game halflings. They could've just done that. Maybe a mod can be made to look permanently so but without the malus.

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One of my characters is a wood elf with a strength of 8, he jumps more or less realistically. My other character is a dwarf with a strength of 20 and... I do not know how to describe IT in words... At first I was very surprised by what I saw. Then I just made the dwarf jump, and laughed like crazy. You know, I'm scared to make a halfling character, give him maximum athleticism and made him jump


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My only problem with halfling is that they need slightly wider shoulders. The head looks WAAAAAAAAY too big.

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Messing around with the Enlarge Reduce Deluxe Mod, to which I changed the scales :
I wanted different heights for my companions. so the elves are a tad shorter, and *imagining* a halfling in the middle, but she needs a bigger head tho, I wish there was a mod for that.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

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@Naemi Was the elongated head just a 3.5 or did it make it to 5e also?

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5e doesn't give any specific physical descriptions of anatomy or anatomical details that differentiate halflings from humans - such things are usually mentioned if present in the race description - aside from their overall size. The official art varies by individual artist art style, but the *greater majority* of it shows figures that are more or less human proportioned in most ways; individual instances of ridiculously tapering extremities and balloon heads are the trait of a particular artist, and their particular art style, and are not indicative of the majority of other official art representations (it's just unfortunate that said artist was used for the splash image on the halfling's own phb race page). The majority official arts we have since 5e shows human-proportioned halflings, with relatively uniform scale, very *slightly* larger heads relative to shoulder width than you'd expect on an adult human, and slightly stockier dimensions from knee to toe, as you might expect on a smaller creature.

The elongated head trait that was common in 3.5 art didn't seem to come forward in any official 5e artworks, but the crux of it remains that in 5e we didn't get any strong physical descriptors other than their overall size, that created any definite physical differences between them and humans... so we have a spread of different artists who all made official art in their own style and vision, but none of it truly definitive. the most common depiction, by number of official representations, is as more or less down-scaled humans with the minor differences I mentioned above.

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Did a check on 4e and looks like it transferred to that edition. Guessing they wanted to give artists more creative freedom or something for 5e, thats to bad.

Tried searching for a pic on bing but man that was terrible had to go back to google.
[Linked Image from ghwiki.greyparticle.com]

anyway, thx Niara

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Dynamic height looks cool!

Originally Posted by Naemi
Messing around with the Enlarge Reduce Deluxe Mod, to which I changed the scales :
I wanted different heights for my companions. so the elves are a tad shorter, and *imagining* a halfling in the middle, but she needs a bigger head tho, I wish there was a mod for that.

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

That cranium is almost the perfect size as far as I'm concerned, just the tiniest bit larger and we'd be set.

Legs I think might be a bit long there, though that could just be the foreshortening/stance. They should stop right about where her ankles are currently in the image above. Unless it's a catwalk or a fashion drawing, ratio for leg length to body should be at 1:1.

Described here, again following Loomis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_proportions

In other words, for a fully idealized figure (8 heads tall, classic illustration) you want 4 heads crown to pelvis, and the legs another 4 (heads distance) from the pelvis to the floor.

That is already highly idealized. The conventions on this have been gendered for some time, probably about 200 years or more now, with longer legs for women deemed to be attractive so we tend to see some distortion/elongation there in commercial advertisement or comic books and the like ("legs for miles" I'm sure are all too familiar, I'm generally a fan hehe), but I don't think it should apply as markedly to the Halfling models as it does for the Humans/Elves and such.

Halflings should all stick to the 1:1 on that, which ought to be plenty for our purposes here. Many more players would choose to play the race as a Tav, I'm almost certain, if they looked more like that. Those Halflings would quickly become "beautiful" measured against similar standards as the Humans and the Elves and players would select them more readily, I'm convinced. They need more faces, as do all the races.

Thought experiment: If a new visualization was adopted for Halflings, more along those lines (smaller heads and such) how many of the Named Halfling NPCs would stand out?

Right now I think Arron and Roah would be the most notable, since they're sort of the first we meet, they set the standard. I think it'd be tough to change them too much, but I think they could rescale a bit maybe and it could still work.

I was surprised we didn't see anything on this front. No Gullykin action. I've yet to play a Halfling in BG3. They really don't do anything for me the way they look right now. I feel like Larian should do an expansion to get us more stuff for Dwarves and Halflings. Their Gnomes are pretty great! I like all the Gnomes, but again, no companion there either. Different subject, but right now all the shorties need more love.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 25/09/23 10:20 AM.
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Here I really want to drive this point home right quick

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One version of the proportions used in modern figure drawing is:

-An average person is generally 7-and-a-half heads tall (including the head).

-An ideal figure, used when aiming for an impression of nobility or grace, is drawn at 8 heads tall.

-A heroic figure, used in the depiction of gods and superheroes, is eight-and-a-half heads tall. Most of the additional length comes from a bigger chest and longer legs.

The wiki quote there is paraphrasing from "Figure Drawing for All It's Worth" and "Successful Drawing."

So even if they wanted 7 heads or 6.5 or 6, for shorter than average proportions, they're still pretty far off the mark.

Currently Roah is only 5 heads tall...

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

If I saw that image of Roah without any further context and someone as asked me to guess which fantasy race was being depicted, I would say Dwarf for sure. Even if she was standing next to Nettie or Thrinn or whoever, she'd still just look like a slightly smaller/shorter Dwarf. If she had pointed ears she'd look a Gnome, even if standing next to Philomeen or whoever. Halflings need a more distinct and tinier visualization I think.

If they really want to keep similar proportions as the current, I would still like them to downscale the skull and reduce the entire figure a fair bit, so the tinier scale is more pronounced when compared to the Dwarves.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 25/09/23 10:26 AM.
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One doesn't even need to rectify the proportions to give halflings a 6 or 7 head ratio for them to look good, and like healthy, well-proportioned creatures. This *Can* be done quite well even with a ratio of 5, IF the rest of the body is proportioned in a way that makes sense for the creature. Current BG3 halflings have the proportion hallmarks of humans with a specific (and identifiable) type of dwarfism, and that's a problem - it legitimately is.

The halflings and other small races in other games that I've shown images from so far are examples of how you can have a small race character look healthy in their own body and still have non-human proportions, letting them look like their own species of creature - I'm going to see if I can't find some time to actually do the composites (head ratio, and the crown-hip-heel ratio as well), but I suspect that even if I draw them up formally what it will show is that those other halflings (and yes, even the black desert Shai, despite her cherubic facial structure), all maintain these ratios well, in a way that Larian's halfling, here, does not. I'll try to find the time to do some composites with markers for them - I'd like to draw up marked charts for Larian halflings, Larian humans, Lotro Hobbits, Lotro River-Hobbits, Lotro Humans, BDO Shai and BDO humans, ideally with male and female examples on the small race side - though with the Shai this isn't possible (the playable characters in that game are specific people with specific backstories - so the Shai that has gone adventuring is a specific, female, person). If there are other games or media that have examples of halflings or equivalent small-race characters done well, let me know and I'll see if I can't do them too.

Last edited by Niara; 27/09/23 10:12 AM.
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I completely agree with OP.

We need better small races.

They deserve respect. And more options always good!


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I'm still super reluctant to go there. I mean I do think it is entirely possible that some of that thinking was at work perhaps, or at work at one point, but if that's the case it would still require some significant extra attention on the developer's part for it to really carry, or to be a worthwhile choice for a visualization in that case. The only way something like that works in my view is if I open the BG3 IMDB page and immediately see a bunch of actual and recognizable actors there, you know what I mean. Or I don't know, say if they set up a temp branch consulting office in La Joya, CA (or if there is a similar place in England?) where they could call in some experts to do the due diligence on that? They could work with the DAAA even for like Mocap stuff to raise that profile (again I'm in the States, I don't what they'd have access too over there across the pond, but probably something through NIH maybe?) And then put in all the same sort of work on that they might for a variant model for the Human archetypes.

I feel like Hasbro and the Wizards would just never touch that though, cause they'd be too afraid of potential fallout on that front. I think it could be done, but to be done well requires a lot more. Main sticking point I think in that instance would be something along the lines of, "did they hook anybody with some work?" Cause if they did, then it's pretty different right. Then the whole script flips. Then the answer is easy. They'd just point to the actors they hired and say, you know what, we took that into account pr at least really tried to and hoped to raise the profile by talking directly to the people we had on payroll. Like in an open casting call sorta deal or in conversation with the people who'd be most invested there. But I just feel like that's not going to happen. It might be cool if it did, but feels unlikely. If it ends up being some kind of game of the year situation, where they could leverage that to actually move the needle on some stuff, then it would probably deserve the plaudits for inviting that more meaningful conversation. As it stands, I'd probably just keep it well within the realm of the fantastical. The same way they approach Tiefs or Githyanki or Dragonborn, as just a completely different sort of concept from the ground up.


ps. oh to the below... I was mainly responding there to my earlier thought in the thread (sorry I always do that) but I meant like if they had hired an achon actor or something to do the mocap with a nod to the actor who portrayed the character carried into the modelling for particular NPCs or something along those line? Since I'm not sure if that might have been the case or not. But I couldn't find any info, and just don't think it was really that. You're right I'm sure I'm drifting too far into intentionality there. Basically if they made Roah into say fantasy race Human as an alt body type, to preserve the current character depiction on certain NPCs, then I still think they need to do a bit more work in the modelling for that to really carry I guess was my thought. Although I think the halfling characters were probably invented rather than roto capped up here as the basis. Although my guesses on the VA work for the custom Tavs were totally off the other day, so now I'd second guess myself on this one too. I think Roah still looks like a fantasy Dwarf though, and she could probably slot in there if they wanted to keep the same basic vibe on everything for her, while totally redoing Halfling Tavs or a Helia companion, to be like way smaller. Or else maybe just shrinking the models for characters like Roah or Arron and rescaling from there? I really think 6 heads tall, or 6.5 might work well enough, with some work on the torso to limb proportions. I'm not sure what we'll get, if anything, but I also haven't seen any mods yet for the Halflings until that Reduce size mod post above, which seemed cool! Much closer to what what I was hoping for with Halflings. Just smaller basically, by a fair bit.

pps. afterthought, again sorry, my thinking is ever sorta disjointed and typing is the same for me lol. But at least with regard to the male halflings, all you really gotta do is put the ridiculous long beard on any of them, and they are instantly fantastic (albeit slightly smaller) archetypal fantasy Dwarves. If you take Arron and put him in some whisker's there is no mistaking that dude for an excellent fantasy Dwarf. Perhaps with a name like Arron Stoneclever of the Woodland Dwarve or something? I mean that could do - and maybe his whole deal is to help shape the stones around the Grove by using the running river water. Maybe he has some Halfling or Gnome great ancestor and sometimes the beard just skips a generation like that. Or maybe he sacrificed his beard in some ritual to Silvanus or whatever. It could probably be easily explained. If he was a Dwarf then it would make more sense how he's sorta hording all the supplies and being extra avaricious in the haggles, cause that's always a hallmark of D&D dwarves right? So it sorta works on a story angle too I think if they went that way. I tried just now rolling up a number of bearded Halflings and every single one makes for a pretty glorious Dwarf, even with the handlebars and the mustachios and such. I mean it's all right there, and they even look kinda cooler as Dwarves to me standing next to larger Dwarves like Nettie. I made one a necromancer and I might keep him around just to cast reduce on Arron and see how that version feels. But at the moment I think most of the Halfling models could basically be switched to Dwarves pretty readily. The heads are just too large for me to buy off on the size small as a Halfling. A Gnome in a helmet feels much the same, but the Gnomes are so well done storywise that I totally give them a pass, like they're fine. Just focus on the Halflings basically, the others are pretty solid. It'd be nice to have more phenotypes for all, but I think the Halfling makes the most sense to dial down.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 27/09/23 11:02 PM.
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I'm not completely sure what you're responding to there, Black Elk... I think I may have miscommunicated. I'm not pointing to motive or intent, just noting what I visually see. All I was pointing out in the first paragraph was that right now, the models that we visibly have, have all those visual hallmarks, whether that was intentionally done by Larian or not - right now, they look like humans with a specific type of dwarfism, and they should not, because they are not; they are a completely different species of creature and they should not look like humans with a genetic abnormality or disorder... and whether intentional or not, making an entire separate race of creatures from humans look like them in stature and design is very definitely not how one should attempt to represent small people (referencing real world humans) in video games... it's disrespectful to the real world humans, for one thing, but also to the lore and existence of the fictional fantasy race that such a design is over-writing.

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Okay, so, here are the composites. Spoiler tagged for the use of BG3's nude models, stripped down for the sake of having a clear view of the body proportions unobscured by clothing and such. Would that I could do that for the other game models, but I suspect that if I did, the images might get modded – I still did not receive clear guidance from the officials about what I could and couldn't post in that regard. It was promised, along with a revision of the forum rules regarding the matter to better clarify the issue, but neither were ever forthcoming, so I'm erring on the side of caution for the non-BG3 games.

First of all, I want to actually start with the human models from a different game; it'll make sense in a bit ^.^ I want to reference the human models in LotRO, an almost sixteen year old game:

(LotRO Human Male and Female)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

These models have aimed at being realistic, and they have a 7.5 head ratio, with their crown-hip-heel divide being about 50% - the median line is almost exactly on the groin, where it should be for an averagely well-proportioned adult human. Generally, this median point can comfortably range between groin and hip, what should be approximately half head's worth of variation, and still look healthy. The torso constitutes about 30% of the overall body, also normal to ideal for a mature adult. They look positively normal, which was the goal. These humans stand what would approximately be somewhere between five and a half to six feet tall.

I'm showing these ones first for contrast. So that we can look at...

(LotRO Hobbit Male and Female)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

These hobbits have a head ratio of 5.75 – notably a much smaller ratio, not even a 6, which would be considered the very low end of acceptable adult human proportion. The median line for their body length ratio is still at the hip, though it is at the upper end of the hip region (and higher on the males, due to their extra paunch). Despite this, they manage to look like healthy, normal people. They are clearly not human people, but they are also clearly adults. Their torsos still only take up about 30% of their body (as they should on a mature biped), and their extremities are actually slightly stockier than they might otherwise be on a human, which combines to give them a very balanced overall look. Compared to the humans in their game, these hobbits stand approximately four feet high; taller than D&D halfling should be, but actually the correct height for Tolkien hobbits.

Recently, LotRO released a new species of hobbits – river hobbits, who are supposedly slightly lither and leaner, and a little more elven, rather than mannish. Here's how they look:

(LotRO River-hobbit Male and Female)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com] [Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

This design also looks healthy and normal, though it's clearly different from the original hobbits. These folks have a head ratio that makes a full 6, though they only stand a tiny fraction taller than other hobbits. They, too, keep the median line for their body ratio at about hip height, slightly closer to the groin that the original hobbits, in fact, and the stockiness of their extremities, particularly their legs, isn't quite as pronounced, though it's still there, compared to humans. The result is that they look much closer to humans that the original hobbits do – though they're still clearly not. They are unarguably mature adults of their species, though, and they look like healthy, believable creatures.

Before we jump over to the BG3 models for comparison, I'll add one more in, since I've mentioned it elsewhere already (and it's also the only game I've got to hand that has an equivalent small race character I can do a break down of). The Shai from BDO does have a very cherubic face structure, and the way the character is treated in game both by other players and its dev team does not help matters... however, despite all of that, her actual body proportions are those of a mature-for-her-species creature (as she is by her lore – her backstory includes growing up and undergoing both of the two separate coming of age rites of her people, one at 20 and one at 40), and at the end of the day, the model looks just fine. No male equivalent for this one, as the adventuring Shai is a specific individual, as per the world story:

(BDO Shai)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

This model clocks in with a head ratio of 5.5, and a body proportion median of almost exactly 50%. Her torso takes up that same ~30% of her total body that you expect from a psychically mature biped, and it's in balance with her other proportions as well, giving the model a very close to human shape; specifically a mature, if slightly built, human (no, height and bust size are not valid determinants of maturity). Her arms and legs are ever so slightly thicker than you'd expect on an equivalent human, though not by much in this case; as with the other small-sized models shown already, this is a trait that helps small-sized creatures appear more natural and believable in their own bodies. In game, the model stands about three and a half feet tall, relative to others – though that's harder to gauge in this particular game.

So then, this brings us (at last, I know) to BG3's halflings. These models Should stand at about three feet tall, for D&D halflings, though they stand closer to four and a half in game:

(BG3 Halfling Male and Female)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

There's a lot going on here, and a lot of it is not good. These halflings have a head ratio of barely 5 – and they have heads that are actually larger, one to one, than the human models in the game. Their body length ratio sees the meidan line drifting above the navel, almost to the base of the ribcage – a full head above the groin – because their legs account for only approximately 40% of their body height. By contrast, their torsos take up between 40 to 45% of their total height. Their legs actually taper down as well, the opposite of what they need to do to create a healthy, balanced-looking model.

I do, of course, not mean or intend any offence or disrespect when I say this, and am being purely analytical, but there are two groups of people who tend to show these particular body proportions: infants, and those with certain types of dwarfism. The over-sized torso and chest is particularly egregious on the female model; this is not a recrimination about large-breasted designs – this is more than just that, as it is an issue with the actual proportion of the torso as a whole, which the large breasts just emphasise (And as an aside, a game where you ask/let us pick out genital situation and personal intimate grooming... but don't let us define our bust at all? Really?).

In short, these models don't work for more reasons that just the head to body ratio – many of their proportions and other ratios are severely distorted in ways that prevent the model from looking balanced, healthy and believable.

Considering that this may partially be design style for everything in the game... let's look at the models for humans in BG3, so we have a cross-check:

(BG3 Human Male and Female)

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

In stark contrast to their squashed halflings, BG3 has decided to go with the full-on super-hero comic-book proportions here, making their human models with a head ratio of 8.5. They have also kept proper crown-hip-heel proportions, and you can see that in both cases the median line is more or less exactly at the groin, where it should be – that is to say, the legs contribute about 50% of the character's total height, while the torsos take up about 30% of total, all with pretty even or idealised proportions. If you overlapped them, the chest area of the female halfling is almost identical in actual size, width and depth, to the chest of the female human – on an otherwise much smaller body. No wonder it looks so distorted.

I'm kinda left wondering why the halfling models are so terrible, when, for example, the female dwarves actually look pretty good:

(BG3 Dwarf Female)
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

A 5.5 head ratio, and standing closer to five feet in game, this model is stocky and sturdy, without looking disproportionate or distorted; the limbs have an appropriate amount of extra thickness to them to compliment and balance the body shape without looking unhealthy, and even though the median body measure is quite high, their overall torso size is close to the expected 30%, which means that overall they look... good. Not human clearly, but also like properly balanced, believable beings.

So.... Larian can make really nice looking models. Why are halflings in such a terrible state?

The only answer I can really arrive at is a sad one, and it's that Larian seems to consider short races, and halflings in particular, as jokes and as a laughing stock to be made fun of... it shows up every time they mention them, it shows up in interviews and panels, it shows up in the game itself... and when this disrespect bled through into their designs as well, they lacked the care or desire to do better. In a recent video release about the races in the game (Here), Larian had official video footage to accompany the interview... and the footage for halflings was of a Dwarf, Nettie. Perhaps they did it because they knew how bad their halfling models look... or perhaps they simply didn't realise and didn't care. Either is a pretty scathing indictment.

I really do want to be wrong about this. I want to believe that this will be addressed one day. Fingers crossed.

==

Addendum: A side note worth mentioning while the model shots are up – There's clearly a connection and alignment issue going on with the human female's left hip and upper thigh... and halfling females inherited this exact issue as well. It feels a lot like they just took the human model and squished several parts of it (but not others) to make the halfling models.

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Those examples are instructive, and helpful to illustrate some of the basic points. I would note though that "BDO Shai" would appear to be coming from a pretty different tradition of animation/illustration where the 'rules' are somewhat distinct regarding the approach to figurative realism.

There I think you'd have to look to conventions from Japan or Korea to explain that image, which are different, although they've clearly been in conversation with what was going on in America during that same period and even moreso recently. These days we see a real blend going both directions, but I mean if you take it back to the tail end of the 1980s it would be comparing stuff like Fist of the North Star or Akira or later maybe Ninja Scroll/Ghost in the Shell and that 'style' of figurative representation, to stuff like the Classic Disney princess films, or similar stuff from the Soviet block like the Frog Princess. In contrast to 8 heads tall thing, the Japanese Manga tradition adopted a 'realism' figure which is even more exaggerated. So much closer there to what in the West would have been the preserve of Fashion Illustration, going up to 9 or 10 heads tall. Basically a completely different approach to the facial morphology as well, particularly in the way the nose and eyes are handled, which have different cultural connotations. In short I think they'd have to kinda pick a style there and roll with it consistently, or else it looks odd like a hodgepodge mashup.

I'm also somewhat unclear about what sorts of pictures we can fairly use to discuss this stuff here on the home boards? The only way I've been able to post an image to these forums is by using one of the larger clearing house/hosts like ibb and such, but I hate those places, cause you just know that either they'll eventually go defunct and every image link here will break, or it's just feeding the machine like Lawnmower man hehe.

I really hope they will do a photo mode tool, because then perhaps they could build in some of features like watermarks, which would clearly indicate when we're seeing images of the unmodded game versus modded, and some way to record the provenance.

Only other thing I can think to add, is that I would like them to revisit the faces/morphology of the head for the Halflings. Instead of taking a page from cartooning with the over-exagerated noses and such. It's fine to have some variety there and some heads that lean a bit more that direction, but right now, particularly with the male models, these seem comically exaggerated to me in pretty much every instance.

I don't see a good representation of dwarfism as it presents in human beings here, not to drift into intention again, but if that was the goal, it still fails I think. To achieve that they would need to shorten the forearms and change the morphology of the skulls, but I think that may not be wise. I keep waiting for someone to show up and be like "yeah I'm an achon, and I think such and such about it' but honestly, it'd probably be the most exhausting subject imaginable for them to entertain - like what actual dwarfs think about the depiction of Fantasy Dwarves in popular media. I doubt highly that anyone in that community would be all too eager to wade into the fray here, since I'm sure the subject is super fraught and perhaps just annoying a lot of times. Also things are different now, whereas in the past any sort of representation would probably have been seen as a plus, since it provided some modicum of work and an opportunity to engage with the broader public or at least meet more peers, this isn't exactly the 1980s anymore.

In my entire life I've only known one person who had Achondroplasia to have a conversation with, and that was long time ago in college. But I think you can look to comments made by some of the bigger stars like Dinklage or Davis to get a sense of things in that arena. I'd have to guess that landing roles in procedural dramas or stuff like Nip Tuck would have felt a lot cooler than say, a fantasy show full of old tropes. GOT was an exception, because the writing was nuanced and more empathetic, but you know what I mean. In short, I think it's probably better to leave well enough alone on that front, since the only appropriate angle there would be an alt Human phenotype, but we've barely got 2 phenotypes here for that anyway. I think the readiest solution is to make the Halflings look way more fantastical and way smaller, which would maybe ameliorate or preempt some of those concerns.

For my part, I would prefer smaller skulls with more proportional facial features.

Returning to the Loomis well to draw our bucket from that, the books would be "Fun with a Pencil" and "Drawing the Head and Hands"

These images are like baseline pretty oldschool. What he's actually doing here is teaching illustrators how to use reference properly before venturing into cartooning conventions, which are also covered...


[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

[Linked Image from i.ibb.co]

Also discussed in those tomes are the conventions for indicating age or developmental maturity, which has it's own entire chapter. I believe they are in the public domain now with the google scans for the full text. This is from a period in American illustration when commercial advertisement had not yet been completely overtaken by photography, and when many periodicals still featured drawings and paintings on their covers and insets. Still it's useful here I think, if only to give some shorthands. Clearly they are from a different era, and the examples chosen probably recall to mind the Twilight Zone, but it's something.

The Loomis suggestions are largely prescriptive, meaning his advice was directed at working illustrators who were trying to make an actual living selling work to advertisers and publishers. So he's also parsing the general aesthetic of the times a bit and there are some issues, but it does give us a way to compare what we see for BG3 humans which basically follow that, vs BG3 halflings which are essentially cartooning caricatures with those sorts of hallmarks.

Also a quick headshot comparison I made there during EA to show the angles. They may have cleaned things up a little bit, but I think it still basically holds. You can see what I mean about the degree of caricature being employed here. I think it's more pronounced with the males. Similar to cartooning/animation they always seem to get more variety, (which is it's own issue) but just to have it in the thread, I'll leave that one here too. Again, to my eye they'd all make excellent fantasy Dwarves once they got beards, but for halflings, not so much. Least for me.

Last edited by Black_Elk; 30/09/23 03:44 AM.
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Question do Halflings still have hairy feet?,

Seeing as they're just Hobbits with a different name.

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