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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by GM4Him
So, even if they did no presets, I'd be happy with the Solasta reactions approach. It really isn't any different from a true Tabletop experience where the DM says, "Hey John. Goblin 4 is casting Fireball. John! Stop watching TV for a sec. Goblin 4 is casting Fireball. Wanna Counterspell?"
That's an...interesting "true Tabletop experience" you have there. xD

As a DM, I'm certainly not going to prompt a distracted player to take an optional action outside of their turn. If they stepped away for a minute to go to the bathroom or get a snack, sure I'll wait for them if I know they could respond to an enemy action. But watching TV?!?! Nah; you're getting your ass fireballed.

Originally Posted by 7d7
Originally Posted by Tuco
Ok, we have considered and we still want it. Now what?
We <> all players

I don't mind both but would prefer a default preset settings to allow proper flow especially in MP
Include me (and likely a sizable chunk of the 80+% of people who prefer prompts over auto-reactions) in that "we."

lol.

Actually, that experience is more related to other RPGs: Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, etc. where turns take forever, so if I'm controlling like a dozen Stormtroopers or something plus any NPCs in the group, enemy turns can take awhile.

But that's my point about D&D 5e Reaction system. Part of the purpose of it is that players SHOULD pay more attention to combat so THEY interrupt and say, "Wait! That Goblin is casting what now? Counterspell!"

But, in the same respect, as a DM, I'm also pretty lenient about such things. Most of the time, when it's not a certain player's turn, they are goofing off with other players who aren't taking their turn. They're not always paying full attention to what the enemies are doing unless I bring it to their attention.

Some might say, "But this isn't Tabletop. It's a video game. People will be paying more attention." Not true necessarily. I've gotten up and left my PC for a few minutes after taking my turn knowing full well that when it's my turn again the game will pause combat. I don't always watch constantly what the enemies are doing. Yeah sure. That makes it sometimes harder to see what the enemies did, but that's partially what the battle log is for and such. I'm just saying, the prompts idea allows players the freedom to not be shackled to their PC during enemy turns. Someone enters the room and interrupts you, "Take out the trash!" or "Hey, when are you doing some laundry?" you don't miss some Quick Time Event Reaction thing when you have prompts.

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Originally Posted by 7d7
Originally Posted by Tuco
Ok, we have considered and we still want it. Now what?
We <> all players
It was pluralis maiestatis, plebeian.

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It is "pluralis majestatis"... (Also nowadays you might consider carefully selecting your pronouns as they might inadvertently imply more than they used to ;-))

Still your opinion. The arguments "my opinion > your opinion" are going nowhere.

Last edited by 7d7; 14/08/22 05:59 AM.
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Originally Posted by 7d7
It is "pluralis majestatis"...
Nope.

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I know you are, but what am I?

What was the topic again? Oh yeah. Reactions like Solasta.

I must say that the argument that this is a turn based game has some strong merit. This is NOT an action hack/slash game nor RtwP. Thus, you are not meant to have super fast combat. Turn based is supposed to be strategic, like Chess. Sure. We all want faster combat so that it's not boring watching tons of enemies slowly taking turns. However, that should not be at the expense of strategy.

Reactions provide a strategic advantage during enemy turns. They are meant for a player to have things they can actually do during an enemy turn. Take away player control of Reactions means players once again have nothing to do during enemy turns, thus defeating a primary purpose for Reactions.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
I know you are, but what am I?

What was the topic again? Oh yeah. Reactions like Solasta.

I must say that the argument that this is a turn based game has some strong merit. This is NOT an action hack/slash game nor RtwP. Thus, you are not meant to have super fast combat. Turn based is supposed to be strategic, like Chess. Sure. We all want faster combat so that it's not boring watching tons of enemies slowly taking turns. However, that should not be at the expense of strategy.

Reactions provide a strategic advantage during enemy turns. They are meant for a player to have things they can actually do during an enemy turn. Take away player control of Reactions means players once again have nothing to do during enemy turns, thus defeating a primary purpose for Reactions.

I can understand why Larian wouldn't do reactions faithfully. Simplifying niche game genres to eliminate what makes them irritating for your everyday players is what made Blizzard extremely successful back then. I don't think their main target is CRPG purists, it is video game players as a whole therefore "super fast combat" is privileged to "strategic, like Chess".

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Originally Posted by snowram
Originally Posted by GM4Him
I know you are, but what am I?

What was the topic again? Oh yeah. Reactions like Solasta.

I must say that the argument that this is a turn based game has some strong merit. This is NOT an action hack/slash game nor RtwP. Thus, you are not meant to have super fast combat. Turn based is supposed to be strategic, like Chess. Sure. We all want faster combat so that it's not boring watching tons of enemies slowly taking turns. However, that should not be at the expense of strategy.

Reactions provide a strategic advantage during enemy turns. They are meant for a player to have things they can actually do during an enemy turn. Take away player control of Reactions means players once again have nothing to do during enemy turns, thus defeating a primary purpose for Reactions.

I can understand why Larian wouldn't do reactions faithfully. Simplifying niche game genres to eliminate what makes them irritating for your everyday players is what made Blizzard extremely successful back then. I don't think their main target is CRPG purists, it is video game players as a whole therefore "super fast combat" is privileged to "strategic, like Chess".

Maybe so. I'm just saying that I can see their point. It's like taking turn based away from Chess and telling players to lock in their moves prior to either player moving. Then when the referee says Go, both players reveal at the same time where they are moving their pieces. You can't be as strategic, but each turn is faster.

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Gm4him, I hear your argument and I think it is perfectly valid for SP. The issue is MP. Arguably MP would most likely be with players already knowing each others. And therefore be tolerant and patient. However, I cannot emphasize how great it is that larian is trying to improve the flow to allow a faster resolution of encounters. Swarm AI is a great start.

I hope they would find something for reaction. And I really like the auto/targetted solution. If then can give a full control option for the popup lovers even better.

To me a nightmare scenario would be playing with someone halting on every possible steps and reactions (if you played magic the gathering you know what I mean) so I really hope they would have something that flow well. I see the fact they acknowledge the problem a big win already.

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Originally Posted by 7d7
Gm4him, I hear your argument and I think it is perfectly valid for SP. The issue is MP. Arguably MP would most likely be with players already knowing each others. And therefore be tolerant and patient. However, I cannot emphasize how great it is that larian is trying to improve the flow to allow a faster resolution of encounters. Swarm AI is a great start.

I hope they would find something for reaction. And I really like the auto/targetted solution. If then can give a full control option for the popup lovers even better.

To me a nightmare scenario would be playing with someone halting on every possible steps and reactions (if you played magic the gathering you know what I mean) so I really hope they would have something that flow well. I see the fact they acknowledge the problem a big win already.

I hear ya. That's why I've been trying to help develop a preset system.

Larian loves spellcasters way more than Tactical Adventures. I imagine end game mind flayers. 4 mind flayer spellcasters. You have Gale and Wyll, both with Counterspell. All 4 mind flayers casting spells. First casts something stupid like Levitate. Popup for both Wyll and Gale. Counterspell? No. No. Second does the same. No. No. 3rd casts Blur. No. No. 4th casts Lightning Bolt. Ah. Finally. Yes for Gale. He has more spell slots. No for Wyll.

That would kinda be annoying, to be sure. Still... It literally could make or break the encounter if you didn't have that kind of control. When fighting mind flayers, EVERY decision matters. If you have a preset that caused you to counter Blur and you didn't want it to, spell slot that you might need later is lost. Could be the difference between success and failure.

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Originally Posted by 7d7
Gm4him, I hear your argument and I think it is perfectly valid for SP. The issue is MP. Arguably MP would most likely be with players already knowing each others. And therefore be tolerant and patient. However, I cannot emphasize how great it is that larian is trying to improve the flow to allow a faster resolution of encounters. Swarm AI is a great start.

I hope they would find something for reaction. And I really like the auto/targetted solution. If then can give a full control option for the popup lovers even better.

To me a nightmare scenario would be playing with someone halting on every possible steps and reactions (if you played magic the gathering you know what I mean) so I really hope they would have something that flow well. I see the fact they acknowledge the problem a big win already.

Personally I feel as though the bigger problem in that scenario is the player. Even if they had no reactions to deal with, they'd still be stopping at every turn, it would still ultimately be tedious. Sure it would be LESS tedious, but would the value gain really outweigh the value lost?

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Originally Posted by Gray Ghost
Originally Posted by 7d7
Gm4him, I hear your argument and I think it is perfectly valid for SP. The issue is MP. Arguably MP would most likely be with players already knowing each others. And therefore be tolerant and patient. However, I cannot emphasize how great it is that larian is trying to improve the flow to allow a faster resolution of encounters. Swarm AI is a great start.

I hope they would find something for reaction. And I really like the auto/targetted solution. If then can give a full control option for the popup lovers even better.

To me a nightmare scenario would be playing with someone halting on every possible steps and reactions (if you played magic the gathering you know what I mean) so I really hope they would have something that flow well. I see the fact they acknowledge the problem a big win already.

Personally I feel as though the bigger problem in that scenario is the player. Even if they had no reactions to deal with, they'd still be stopping at every turn, it would still ultimately be tedious. Sure it would be LESS tedious, but would the value gain really outweigh the value lost?

I admit. It's really not that much of an argument for presets. Still, a slow player makes a system MUCH more painful if there are more opportunities for them to be slow. That's my point.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I wouldn't want Bardic Inspiration to be a prompt because it could activate multiple times per turn, and then even more times per round. Same reason I don't want Smite to be a prompt, basically.
Would it, though? From what I am reading Bard has to choose his target, the same way as it is already in EA. So really, prompts will only pop up if said character is being attacked - I don't think that would be excessive outside occasional fringe situatations. On top of that, Inspirations are limited resource, so I imagine vast majority if players will cast the Inspiration (instead of, for example, pushing someone to death) if there is particular enemy they are worried about.

Solasta should be adding Bard through a DLC sometime in the future, so I am curious to how it will play there.



Originally Posted by Maximuuus
I may be wrong because I haven't played Chimera Squad but from what I just watched I just don't get how you'd like this to be implemented...
frown I never said I want this implemented - just tried to make a point that being enjoyable to interact with has everything to do with implementation and production value, not actual mechanics. That is just an extreme example of it. The only point I am trying to make is:

"Reaction popup don't have to look like Windows 95 popup.They can be snappy, evocative and fun to interact with"

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
I wouldn't want Bardic Inspiration to be a prompt because it could activate multiple times per turn, and then even more times per round. Same reason I don't want Smite to be a prompt, basically.
Would it, though? From what I am reading Bard has to choose his target, the same way as it is already in EA. So really, prompts will only pop up if said character is being attacked - I don't think that would be excessive outside occasional fringe situatations. On top of that, Inspirations are limited resource, so I imagine vast majority if players will cast the Inspiration (instead of, for example, pushing someone to death) if there is particular enemy they are worried about.

Solasta should be adding Bard through a DLC sometime in the future, so I am curious to how it will play there.
It sounds like you're confusing Bardic Inspiration ("players will cast the Inspiration") and Cutting Words (you refer to "if said character is being attacked"). With Cutting Words, the bard can subtract a Inspiration die from any incoming attack or damage roll. So yes, with a Prompt implementation a Bard would be prompted every single time an enemy attacks an ally, twice--once for the attack and once for damage--until they run out of Inspiration. I agree with Larian's choice to make Cutting Words in BG3 an activated ability that subtracts the BI die from all enemy rolls for a turn.

For Bardic Inspiration, the bard casts it on an ally with a bonus action. Then, RAW, that ally can choose to use that die anytime in the next 10 minutes, and apply it to any one ability check, attack roll, or saving throw. In BG3, "10 minutes duration" would likely change to "until next rest," and at level 5 Bardic Inspiration recharges on a short rest, so I'd expect ~all players to have Bardic Inspiration at all times since the Bard would cast it out of combat. Thus, almost every time a player makes a roll they'd be prompted to use the inspiration, until they use it up.

Similar to Cutting Words, I'd suggest that Bardic Inspiration buffs ALL of an ally's rolls for 1 round. Both implementations trade the power of saving the inspiration for an important roll in exchange for being slightly more powerful in *all* rolls for 1 turn. Alternatively, Bardic Inspiration could last forever but be used automatically on the next Attack roll/Saving throw where using it could change the outcome.

I am also curious about how Solasta will implement the Bard.

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Thanks @mrfugi3. Definitely agree regarding cutting words - personally I have no issue with how it works in the game. I still think inspiration would work well with pop ups. I just feel that if someone cast inspiration, they have in mind a use for it rather then just keep it for foreseeable future.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
I still think inspiration would work well with pop ups. I just feel that if someone cast inspiration, they have in mind a use for it rather then just keep it for foreseeable future.
While I disagree with this reasoning (in my tabletop experience, bards don't usually give out inspiration for a specific reason in combat. This will only be more true in BG3 with the ease of long resting = replenishing of resources), I actually am coming around to BI being an okay prompt.

In my tabletop experience, players usually just use the BI die on the first applicable roll, when using it could turn a miss/fail into a hit/success. Maaaybe the 2nd applicable roll if the first use is incredibly weak: e.g., a ST against a cantrip. That'd only be 1 or 2 pop-ups in BG3, which isn't bad at all.

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Probably worth noting and relevant to everyone's interests here, the Solasta devs had a stream yesterday talking about the subclass contest design winners for Bard, Monk, and Warlock. Among other things, they confirmed that College of Lore is making it in, but with one major change that I think has been on everyone's mind for a while: How will they implement Cutting Words?

Interestingly enough, they decided to take a page from BG3 and change Cutting Words to work on all of a single enemy's rolls for that turn. Though this isn't quite as major as it sounds - most enemies only make a single roll relevant to Cutting Words per turn to begin with, and it's likely this is due to programming limitations more than anything else. (Having the game differentiate between different kinds of enemy rolls probably wasn't worth the coding effort from a practical standpoint - remember that this means it would only affect attack rolls, then the damage roll if the attack still lands, and I think ability checks aren't relevant in Solasta combat. Note that saving throws are not the same as ability checks.)

The important part is that it is still triggered as a reaction, so the potential for multiple prompts per turn is still there. As a reaction though, this means that when you do use Cutting Words, it is for a relevant enemy roll, while the BG3 pre-cast version runs the risk of an enemy just not doing anything that Cutting Words affects.

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Wait, so it's both?
Originally Posted by Saito Hikari
Interestingly enough, they decided to take a page from BG3 and change Cutting Words to work on all of a single enemy's rolls for that turn. [...]

The important part is that it is still triggered as a reaction, so the potential for multiple prompts per turn is still there. As a reaction though, this means that when you do use Cutting Words, it is for a relevant enemy roll, while the BG3 pre-cast version runs the risk of an enemy just not doing anything that Cutting Words affects.
So it's triggered as a reaction: anytime an enemy you can see within 60 feet makes a successful attack (that Cutting Words could prevent?) or a damage roll, you get a prompt to use Cutting Words? And then that enemy subtracts 1d6 from said attack & damage roll, and any other attack and damage rolls during that same turn?

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Wait, so it's both?

So it's triggered as a reaction: anytime an enemy you can see within 60 feet makes a successful attack (that Cutting Words could prevent?) or a damage roll, you get a prompt to use Cutting Words? And then that enemy subtracts 1d6 from said attack & damage roll, and any other attack and damage rolls during that same turn?

I think that's the assumption from how they explained it, yeah.

I now realize that the new Cutting Words in both BG3 and Solasta would be incredibly powerful against enemies capable of making multiple attacks in a single turn.

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Just to be sure:
The change is that it lasts for a full turn instead of a single roll.
You will get promts in every round until the bard uses his reaction in this round.
So with a bard in your party you will see popups every round, in the worst case as many prompts as there are enemies just for this ability.
I guess most players will save their uses for a boss or at least a stronger enemy, not on the first goblin they see.

I prefer Solosta style combat over BG3.
I want to have full control over my characters and you can decide over 90% of the prompts in a split second.
But I can understand when players who hate popups don´t want a bard in their party.


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That's what it sounds like, though it's worth noting that with the way Solasta usually implements reactions, you aren't prompted to use a reaction unless the reaction could actually change the outcome of whatever's happening. That actually cuts down on the amount of potential prompts by quite a lot.

(IIRC the Shield spell under normal rules can be triggered by any attack that hits you, and it can still fail to block that attack because it turns out the enemy roll was too high or it was a critical hit - though you will still retain protection for other attacks in that same turn. In Solasta's implementation, if the enemy roll was too high or it was a critical hit, you aren't prompted for the Shield spell at all. Could be a mix of intentional adjustment and programming limitations, as Solasta doesn't hide rolls from you. It's assumed that the Bardic Inspiration-related features will work the same way.)

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