Larian Studios Forums Baldur's Gate III Baldur's Gate III - Mega-threads and Guides Party Size Discussion

Who knows, perhaps they might add it as a feature in the future, in a similar fashion as they did the gift bags in DOS2 and call it; "Baldur's Gate Classic Party Size".

The only real reason I see on why they might not want to do it now is because of the valuable data they collect, which they use to balance and improve the game.

However even if they don't do it, luckily modding exists to envision what the devs did not wish to envision ^^

An implied point I was making is that Larian is not exactly known for balance. Their history is full of awkward difficulty swings, perhaps by design, as they also tend to leave things open-ended enough for you to really abuse things outside of conventional thought to get through. But even with that thought, an intentionally forced solo segment in a game that uses the DnD ruleset could be awkward for any developer.

I’ve spent so long playing games with four party members that it feels more natural to me now, and when I return to six member party games they just feel a bit flabby and messy.

I think I prefer four for BG3. Particularly with 5e rules and classes, where there other ways of covering the classic roles without necessarily having separate specialists, six party members seem unnecessary. And I don’t particularly want longer battles, but neither do I want ones where individual party members have fewer turns each, and it seems as though we’d need to have one or the other given the turn-based combat. I also have very little interest in creating more than one custom character per playthrough.

So, sorry folks, but I do hope the game is kept balanced for four party members.

I don’t have any problem with players being given an option to have a larger party in the core game, though. Well, other than that I suspect I’d then be tempted to go for the max party size for the sake of party interactions, but that’s my problem!

This, I get. For you, it's like how I feel about long rests. Sure. You COULD play party of 4 if they increased the party size to 6, but knowing you can do party of 6 means that you feel like you maybe SHOULD do it. It nags at you. What if you miss something because you only do party of 4?

Likewise, I feel that way about long rest. Sure. I COULD decide to NOT long rest between every battle, but what if I SHOULD? What if I miss something because I don't long rest?

I wish Larian would do like Source games and expose every single client and server flags to players so they can tweak the game engine to their liking. Want moonwalk gravity? Sure! Want to spawn npcs with custom stats and models? You can! Want a party of 38? Go for it! It would be infinitely easier than modding since it would be just editing a text file and it would work in multiplayer too since the server is authoritative.

Nah. No thanks. I'd much more prefer them to make a solid game and tell people to shove it - lol. Pun intended. Get it? Because shove is broken. BTW. I'm not serious. Well, mostly.

To be frank, I'd actually be 100% fine with a party of 4, and I'd say no more, if a rep from Larian just came out here into the community and said, "Hi everyone. Sorry party of 6ers, but I regret to inform you that we have decided to hold to party of 4. Here's why..."

Likewise, if they said, "We've decided to keep long rest as is. Here's why...". I'd shut up about that too and just accept their decision.

And even easier ignored, as we all agreed would be perfectly acceptable for us.

Just reminding.

Oh how i kept hearing about how Larian is listening to their community and fanbase...
Lies.

I don't care about a party of 6. I think it is either a baby duck thing or a completionist craving to want these in this game in particular, which is fine to have, but not fine to feel exhausted or negative towards Larian because of it. Sorry if I made it sound harsh. I hope those who really need it will get a chance to have it through official or community mods.

I hate mods, and I don't need party of 6, but I'd like the option especially since it's already there. They just need to let us do it. They've locked it behind a max party size number of 4. Nothing more.

It's not about whatever you just said. It's that I'd like a little more party freedom. I'd like to travel with ALL the current origin so I feel more like a full party. I like the character interactions more with the party of 6. Id also like the freedom to make 4 custom characters and yet still take origins with me for side quests. I'd like to have a wizard, a rogue, a cleric, a fighter, a warlock, and a druid all in one party if I want. I don't like having to trade characters in and out because of side quests and all because they feel more than 4 is too full up.

Basically, there are a ton of reasons why I want party of 6 as an option.

I don't think what you said is harsh, as some on the forum do have this wrong idea of treating feedback as demands with heavy expectations rather than suggestions, and then taking it as personal slights when Larian does not acknowledge, respond or implement.

Personally I am perfectly fine with party of four, but if it ends up being a commonly requested feature they could always just add it as a gift bag feature later down the road. And if not, the mods are always there to make the game enjoyable for those who do not find it enjoyable.

There are SOME who just get super critical because they want to blast the game. There are SOME who just never say anything nice about BG3 or Larian. However, there are plenty of us who ARE suggesting out here and hoping we are actually being considered instead of totally ignored. It's very frustrating when you care about the game so much and you want it to be so much better, and you make suggestions and make them again and again and again, and you never know... Are they ignoring you because they aren't even considering it, or are they planning on adding your suggestion but they've just not gotten to it yet.

Then it's even more frustrating when you are trying to keep stating your hopes that they'll implement certain features you think would be really cool, and people keep accusing you of just griping and complaining and demanding when all you're really doing is trying to keep up the good fight and keep stating your side and why you think something will be awesome and why you think it would make the game better, only to have people condemn you for doing so.

I'm fine with people saying why they want or don't want something. Just not happy when people start criticizing me or others for stating why we want something or don't want something.

And I don't take it as a personal slight. I take it as very frustrating that they won't just freaking tell us whether they're going to give us what we ask for or not so we can STOP saying things over and over and over again for 2 freaking years. All we ask for is yes or no or something similar. You know... Let the community know whether they're actually going to allow party of 6 or just keep it at 4 so we stop even entertaining the idea.

I didn't mean you specifically GM4Him, as I think you're a positive influence on the forums. You're passionate and I respect that. So I'm personally not accusing/criticizing nor condemning you of anything nor was it intended to do so towards anyone else.

• However I wish to stay on-topic so; I think that feedback should not be frustrating and expectations should be kept in check.
  
  When it comes to this particular thread, I think a six man party is an interesting idea that certainly has its positives and negatives. Although I personally really like four, I would be interested in trying out six too. However Larian envisioned for their game a four man party. So I do not think that they are ignoring anyone since this particular thread is impossible to be unnoticed as it has 1910 replies and 230,819 views. But I also think that they do not need to outright tell people that they are not implementing something that doesn't fit their vision. Nor do I think people submitting feedback should keep feeling frustrated by holding a two-year prolonged echo-chamber trying to obtain an acknowledgment.
  
  There are 5980 feedback threads on this very forum and who knows how infinitely many more are submitted through other sources (Launcher, Steam, Reddit and other media). And design decisions are not something that one person decides, instead it's a whole team of creative people that discuss such things through a lengthy process, based on their time and resources.
  
  It's unrealistic to expect acknowledgement, especially because nobody is entitled to it as there are so many great and terrible ideas out there. And even if an idea may seem great, it may not fit into Larian's vision of what they're trying to create. Not to mention they also have statistical data being collected in the background all the time to help them and this forum is a minority compared to all the people who bought and play the game.
  
  For example, I do not think that they have to tell a group of people who wish to turn Baldur's Gate 3 into RTSWP (Realtime Strategy With Pause) that they won't be doing that. I think it is pretty obvious they won't do it and no amount of replies nor frustrations will change that, as it is not within their vision.

Personally I believe the feedback is clearly sent and received. People would like a party of six for their enjoyment, so Larian will either do it or they won't. Neither frustrations nor a thousand more replies will change whatever they choose. It's simply being realistic.

Which is why I said, I think they might do it as an extra feature in terms of gift bags once the game releases, as gift bags in DOS2 were meant for enjoyment and were done nicely with plenty of content. But I certainly do not see them implementing this during Early Access nor for release. Their entire data collection is based upon a four man party. And even if they don't do it, luckily the mods exist. Though as far as I know the gift bags were actually community mods at the start, then officially made by Larian. So who knows, they might do it officially after release.

Sigh. Okay. Sorry. It's just frustrating when someone gets onto a thread and starts saying people are just being critical and demanding.

I get your point, but I do disagree with this: "But I also think that they do not need to outright tell people that they are not implementing something that doesn't fit their vision."

It's incredibly rude and terrible Customer Service to totally ignore your community when you ask for feedback and suggestions from people. I mean, this is a Megathread. They could at the very least have SOMEONE come out here and reply to the Megathreads and say, "Hey guys. We've read this request, and we're considering it. However, just so you know, there are quite a few good reasons why we went with party of 4, and it's not likely we'll be going with party of 6" or something similar. Don't just say nothing and leave people wondering.

And every time someone new comes on and says something about it, it renews my desire for it, making me return to the thread hoping SOMEONE will throw us a dang bone about it. I'm sorry, but their lack of responsiveness has left me with a REALLY bad taste in my mouth. I have a hard time not viewing Larian as a sucky company who doesn't give two poops about their fans. I keep trying to give them the benefit of the doubt, but we've even seen a few community managers out here and STILL nothing.

Even if they just came out here and said, "Hey. We just want you to know that we're working on implementing some of your suggestions but we can't tell you what they are because Swen wants to surprise you," that would at least be SOMETHING. Maybe a "It's not likely, guys" or a "We discussed it and it's a maybe," would go a LONG way.

If the company I work for was this silent with their hard-core customers, I'd be out of work. It CERTAINLY makes me NEVER want to participate in any future EAs, and I honestly had a hard time wanting to buy DOS 2 because of it. I literally found myself asking why I should buy another one of their games if they're going to ignore their customers on their own forum sites.

And yes. It's off topic, but not really. You know why? Because we've been bashing our heads into a brick wall about party of 6 for 2 years. Piss on the pot or get off. Just make a decision and tell us what it is because that's what nice people do who value their customers.

Sorry again, but you set me off. I'm not mad at you, per se. I'm so sick of how Larian is treating us. That's all.

I did my opinion on the matter, that's all. It was not a personal attack or some dismissive commentary, I just don't want people to get frustrated because "notice me, senpai" is not working for this game and these forums. I respect those feelings, but don't approve of the attitude. Some big changes that made it into the game derived from the feedback and critique posted online, like stealth advantage removal, high ground advantage rework, companion's attitude tweak, offensive cantrips rework, melee combat enhancement etc. There was no big promise or in advance commentary about those either. Community updates are scarce now and it is understandable, I can only imagine the pressure on the team, considering the irl quality drop and release date pressure.

I'd have no problem with the party of 6 tbh, don't find it necessary though. I think Nicou mentioned some time ago that the team is now working on the reaction system rework, may be they are all-in on this feature, for now, so they won't give any new insights. And the bare bone of a commentary such as "guys no promises may be this, but may be that, but we are reading your feedback" doesn't have much essence in it and is unappealing to me, personally.

P.s. and still this kind of commentary was actually given several weeks ago. frequent reassurance with no meat on the horizon can sound like a false promise, imo

Well. This has been a fun conversation.

So, party of 6. Did you know that some of the earliest images showed party of 6?

I didn't. I guess it worked poorly for some reason and they did get rid of it.

Me neither ... but i managed to find this:


And i know this isnt exactly on topic coment ... but let me express my love to that UI.
Love it ... unconditionaly and with all my heart.
Thank you.

Just following up on something, which I know is from p95/early September, but I had left the browser tab open, with the intention come back to it ... and then lost touch with BG3 EA for a while.


1) Some factual information.

In this panel interview with some streamers (at 24:40), Swen gave some info about the Max Party Size.

(Side note : to my knowledge this is the only source of info about the Max Party Size in BG3. I certainly wish this info would have been available in the official FAQ. Or, save that, that Larian would have seen the recurring comments about Max Party Size and made the effort to put the info out, improving the quality of the feedback and discussion by allowing participants to have an informed opinion. But, hey, we all know how much Larian is interested in fostering better discussion, receiving quality feedback, and overall communicating with players ...)

In the interview, Swen gave the following information.

• Max Party Size will be 4.
• The "engine" is not the limit (programming is more accurate, I suppose, but anyway). They purposefully made sure that it can handle more (at least 6).
• Larian fully expects that there will be mods allowing 6-adventurers party.

Given that Swen said he expects mods to exist for this, I think it's reasonable to expect that 6-adventurer party will not be an in-game option, but only accessible through modding.



2) Why I disagree with Larian's stance.

To be very very clear, I am not talking about the choice of a Max Party Size of 4. I'll happily play with 4 party members.


Overall, the default value of Max Party Size in the full game is very near the bottom on my list of priorities for the game.

What I am talking about is their stance on letting player change Max Party Size : Larian has made sure to code the game in such a way that the Max Party Size variable can easily be switched to 5 or 6, but they won't make Max Party Size a parameter that players can adjust in-game, instead requiring that players mod the game if they want to play with 5 or 6 adventurers.


a) Bridled software, arbitrary usage restrictions.

A video game is a software. Once I've bought it, I'd like some freedom in how I choose to use it.

The software can handle parties of 6. But Larian is giving us a deliberately bridled version, and we have to hack it to use it to its full capability.

To me, this has the same bad smell as DRM.


I also think that this usage restriction is very arbitrary.

Some people might want to spend their gaming time creating characters, building crate towers, assembling music bands, making badger dinners, etc. These uses are possible and allowed.

Some people might want to experience the main story with 6 adventurers. This use is possible but not allowed.


b) Confidence, goodwill, inclusivity.

There could easily be an option in the Game Settings called Max Party Size, with initial value 4. You could increase it, up to the maximum size the engine can handle. If you increase it, the game could have a pop-up window saying "Hi there. The game is designed for parties of 4 adventurers. If you increase this number, the game will not react to that change. Notably, combat encounters will not scale accordingly, and will become less challenging. You could probably try to make them challenging again by using the difficulty settings. But that is not the experience we designed, and we recommend you keep Max Party Size at 4". The "Continue" button could read "I understand, but I'll increase this number anyway". The "Cancel" button could read "Oops. I'll stick to the default value". It would really cost Larian little work to implement that.


In Darkest Dungeons, the devs explained during EA that the corpse mechanics was an integral part of their vision. As many players opposed it, the devs added an option to de-activate it. They had a strong vision, but were confident enough to let players play differently.

In Celeste, you can activate a lower difficulty mode. The game tells you that this is not the intended experience. But maybe you just want to overcome that stage you've been retrying for an hour and then switch back to normal. Maybe you're mostly interested in seeing the game's story to its end, and perhaps you won't switch back. Your choice. The game is widely praised for its approach to difficulty.

To me, these developers are worthy of praise. They are confident in the gaming experience they've created, and don't mind if some players are seeking something a little different. They are willing to add options for those players. They are welcoming to people who have different levels of skill/ability or want a slightly different experience.

By contrast, by saying "no, really, we won't give you this option", Larian sounds insecure, lazy, and happy to exclude players seeking a slightly different experience.


c) Trust, respect, and communication.

One possible reason behind their stance is the following.

Larian thinks that, if players insist on using a 6-adventurer party despite the game's warning, and then have a lesser experience, they (some of them at least) are going to complain about the 6-adventurer gameplay being less good.

If the previous sentence (or some mild variation of it) is true (or somewhere close to true), then it would be very disappointing. And a bit disrespectful. The game is for mature audience only, who can be trusted to know how to read and comprehend written messages. So I certainly hope that the hypothetical argument above is not actually Larian's reason for making Max Party Size not adjustable in-game.


The best way for Larian to let players know the message that "yes, you can technically play with a party of 6 but, no, it is not advised", is to explicitly communicate this. Which can be done, for instance, via a pop-up message in-game when players increase Max Party Size above 4.

Meanwhile, saying nothing, letting players mod the game, and hoping that they'll get the hint and receive the implicit message, is a poor way to convey said message. (And, given how poorly Larian has communicated with players during the EA overall, I suppose that this is another facet of their poor communication philosophy.)

I think you are overthinking this. It isn't a conspiracy from Larian to piss off players and downloading a mod is an extremely low roadblock. Would being able to tweak every aspect of the game be better? Sure! But for Larian, it is probably not worth the investment of making an experimental, untested, unbalanced and potentially unstable feature available to please a microscopic percentage of their player base.