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You should, yes, as long as the other conditions are met - if you happen to be a multiclass paladin/arcane trickster rogue, for example, you should be able to cast green flame blade at an opponent your ally is fighting, and when you hit with the weapon attack roll using your dagger as part of the spell, apply your sneak attack and pump a divine smite into it as well.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
The benefits of a toggle over an icon are:
- it automatically would apply sneak attack to opportunity attacks
- you can combine sneak attack with other powers (e.g., weapon abilities, smite, etc)
- you can directly click an enemy to attack them, rather than having to click the dedicated "sneak attack" icon and then click the enemy

The benefits of a toggle over automatically applying sneak attack on your first successful hit each turn are:
- if for some reason you don't want to apply sneak attack to an enemy (e.g., main-hand attack a low-HP enemy to kill them, saving sneak attack for an off-hand attack against a farther-away enemy), you can do that by turning the toggle off.

Finally someone who knows how to play crpgs and understand how sneak attack should work and all the benefits that come with more control over it.
Toggle would work fine yes...

BUt when it comes to having active icons cos apparently someone - people want an active skill for it.
You can still have active sneak attack if they add a charge Buff for it, that resets after every round.
That way if you miss with sneak attack and the charge buff is not used due to a miss you can still use it on other attacks that same round.

We know Larian can do charges, because the new Lightning charges work the same way and they could be used to fix the sneak.
So all they need to do is make a new Sneak charge Icone that you can click on - (toggle if you will) that lets you use sneak attack i mean it's so simple...

Last edited by Lastman; 23/11/22 01:21 AM.
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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Option C:
Your Sneak Attack is right on your hotbar on bindable possitions ... sure you can still forget it, technicaly, but its certainly a lot harder to forget press attack button you are using with every single character, than forget to go turn on some shining icon in the corner. laugh
So you attack Goblin 1 and kill it regular way > you press 1/2/3 (depending on where you put your Sneak Attack you wish to use) and kill Goblin 2 aswell.
Smooth, simple, fast, effective, with fresh scent of lemons! laugh :3

You can still have this option unchanged if they make it a charge that you can toggle...

Nothing would change for you in that department if you want to play like that you just leave the charge on/don't touch it for the rest of the game, simple.(a bad way to play you leave a lot of damage on the table...but that's a different topic )

The only thing it would change for you is that if you multiclass you could trigger sneak attack together with other attacks like Menacing Attack or Pushing Attack and so on you get the picture. OW and IF you missed with your attack you could sneak attack again with your other attacks meaning you could use that active icon - press 1 key more then once per turn. smile Even if at that point the active icon is redundant, but it would force turn on the charge if you played with the toggle button and forgot to turn it on for whatever reason.

Last edited by Lastman; 23/11/22 07:23 AM.
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
The toggle would default to on, turning off for only a single attack when you click it, and then automatically turning back on. So in the 90+% of cases where you'd want to sneak attack on your first (possibly only) attack each turn, it'd require no extra clicks. In the remaining cases, it's almost a certainty that you'd want to sneak attack on your 2nd attack, so it's still only a total of 1 extra click.
I shouldn't have been so categorical; your explanation makes sense. In case a 1 hp foe is standing next to the rogue, that is quite helpful (I'm not being sarcastic, it happens more than I thought it might).

A few counterpoints:

1. The current system already has this benefit (or very close to it). If you're worried about wasting your sneak attack on a low hp enemy, just start off with your off hand attack. I'm almost certain that this maximizes expected damage anyway, so the toggle doesn't present a strategic edge in that regard.

2. It would be the only opt-out toggle... Wait, that's not true. Bardic Inspiration is mostly off/partly on. And I couldn't say whether Great Weapon Master is on or off by default.

3. Speaking of GWM, a toggle would be compatible with attacks of opportunity; the current system isn't.

...

Ok, I can see how a Sneak Attack toggle could work. However, I'm not a fan of the toggle system working in quirky, inconsistent ways. Sneak Attack would be the only toggle to switch positions without direct player input. Given how diligent Larian are about explaining their game systems, that might be too ambitious.

Best to resverve judgement for patch 9. Just four weeks to go...

Last edited by Flooter; 23/11/22 02:13 AM.

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Originally Posted by Lastman
You can still have this option unchanged if they make it a charge that you can toggle...

Nothing would change for you in that department if you want to play like that you just leave the charge on/don't touch it for the rest of the game
Eh ... what? O_o
I would really like to say more, but i have no idea what are you talking about.

---

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
in the 90+% of cases where you'd want to sneak attack on your first (possibly only) attack each turn
I certainly dont recoment such approach to anything ...
Just remember how well it worked for Reactions (Hellish rebuke for example) ... Larian also thought that we would "in 90+% of cases want to..."
Surprise! Surprise! We dont.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
In the remaining cases, it's almost a certainty that you'd want to sneak attack on your 2nd attack, so it's still only a total of 1 extra click.
In case when you have 1 extra oponent ...
What if you have 20 of them? (Goblin camp) smile

See, this isnt really matter of amount of clicks ... its just that its anoying extra action you dont want to do ... same as when you want toggle, rather than active skill ... its not like that pressing that button is somehow hard, long, or w/e ... its that you dont want to press it, that is what anoys you. :P
And it goes same other way ... one of us will be pissed in the end, its inevidable.

---

Originally Posted by Flooter
it happens more than I thought it might
+1
Anyone who dont believe it, create Rogue Tav and invite Astarion to your group ... i guarantee you will be saving Sneak Attack for second strike a lot. laugh

Originally Posted by Flooter
1. The current system already has this benefit (or very close to it). If you're worried about wasting your sneak attack on a low hp enemy, just start off with your off hand attack.
That is certainly possible ... and the only way right now.
But it sucks. laugh

For one, as it was mentioned somewhere i around i believe ... sometimes you wish to use your Bonus Action for something else.

For two, wich is probably more important, if you then miss with your Sneak Attack, your (often almost whole damage you could do during that round) is gone. :-/ Wich is quite punishing. :-/

And for three, it still limits your options.

Take it, if you have two Short Swords at level 1 as a 16Dex Rogue, you can do:
1d6 (Weap) +3 (Dex) +1d6 (SA) = 5-15 ...
OR 1d6 (Weap) + 3 (Dex) = 4-9 ...
OR 1d6 (offhand so, no Dex) = 1-6 ...
OR 1d6 (offhand) + 1d6 (SA) = 2-12 ...

But now all you have is:
1d6 (Weap) +3 (Dex) +1d6 (SA) = 5-15 ...
OR 1d6 (Weap) + 3 (Dex) = 4-9 ...
OR 1d6 (offhand so, no Dex) = 1-6 ...

And if we concider misses (different scenario, big strong enemy, last few hitpoints, your rogue is the only thing that stands between you and Game Over) ...
Right now, if you miss with your Main Hand + Sneak attack ... you just lost 5-15 damage.
But if Off-Hand Sneak Attack (or that ugly toggle) would be implemented, you still have another atempt, and loose only 3damage if you hit this time. laugh Wich is without a doubt a lot less punishing.

Originally Posted by Flooter
toggle would be compatible with attacks of opportunity; the current system isn't.
Thats not the only way to make it compatible tho ...
We allready know (as much as we are even able to "know" anything about this development proces) that reactions will be changed ...

So IF (and im aware how big this IF is ... its a lot bigger than that butt i usualy mention) we get reactions closer to what Solasta have ... there would be no need for any toggle. wink

Synergy with Battlemaster manouvers sounds like lot better argument it this ...
The problem is that it should work both ways ...
So Battlemaster manouvers should be (following the same argument) toggle aswell ...
Then there are Elemental Arrows, that *should* teoretically aswell work with other attacks ...
etc. etc.
And before you know it, you end up with completely empty hotbar, and just as big second hotbar for toggles. laugh

Originally Posted by Flooter
Best to resverve judgement for patch 9. Just four weeks to go...
Not a bad idea ...
But where you got four? O_o

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 23/11/22 10:29 AM.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Flooter
Best to resverve judgement for patch 9. Just four weeks to go...
Not a bad idea ...
But where you got four? O_o

Originally Posted by Salo
Like a team of infernal reindeer, the next major update for Baldur’s Gate 3 is coming in for a smooth yuletide landing
I took the announcement to mean Christmas (give or take a few days), not just december. After all, the dress code is “christmas from hell”.


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Originally Posted by Flooter
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by Flooter
Best to resverve judgement for patch 9. Just four weeks to go...
Not a bad idea ...
But where you got four? O_o

Originally Posted by Salo
Like a team of infernal reindeer, the next major update for Baldur’s Gate 3 is coming in for a smooth yuletide landing
I took the announcement to mean Christmas (give or take a few days), not just december. After all, the dress code is “christmas from hell”.

I dunno, but where I live some people started Christmas weeks ago.... smirk

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I see ...
Well, personaly i wouldnt expect them to do this PFH in the same week as Christmas will be ... so my gues was 2-3 weeks ... but i gues we can agree on "up to 4 weeks" laugh


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Originally Posted by mrfuji3
in the 90+% of cases where you'd want to sneak attack on your first (possibly only) attack each turn
I certainly dont recoment such approach to anything ...
Just remember how well it worked for Reactions (Hellish rebuke for example) ... Larian also thought that we would "in 90+% of cases want to..."
Surprise! Surprise! We dont.

Originally Posted by mrfuji3
In the remaining cases, it's almost a certainty that you'd want to sneak attack on your 2nd attack, so it's still only a total of 1 extra click.
In case when you have 1 extra oponent ...
What if you have 20 of them? (Goblin camp) smile

See, this isnt really matter of amount of clicks ... its just that its anoying extra action you dont want to do ... same as when you want toggle, rather than active skill ... its not like that pressing that button is somehow hard, long, or w/e ... its that you dont want to press it, that is what anoys you. :P
And it goes same other way ... one of us will be pissed in the end, its inevidable.
That's the great thing about the toggle system over Larian's automatic reaction system though: It still allows full player control. Which is different from how Hellish Rebuke works: not giving players the real-time decision to use it or not.

If you have 20 extra goblins, you still will still be limited by the # of attacks you have per turn. For rogues, this is 1 bonus action attack by default, 2 if you're a Thief. So 3 or 20 goblins is effectively the same amount. And it's an even lower probability that a player would need to make their first two attacks non-sneak, and then the third attack a sneak attack.

And there's still the huge positive that, with a toggle, you can combine sneak attack with other weapon/class/race attack abilities. And sneak attack on opportunity attacks.

Originally Posted by Flooter
I shouldn't have been so categorical; your explanation makes sense. In case a 1 hp foe is standing next to the rogue, that is quite helpful (I'm not being sarcastic, it happens more than I thought it might).

A few counterpoints:

1. The current system already has this benefit (or very close to it). If you're worried about wasting your sneak attack on a low hp enemy, just start off with your off hand attack. I'm almost certain that this maximizes expected damage anyway, so the toggle doesn't present a strategic edge in that regard.

2. It would be the only opt-out toggle... Wait, that's not true. Bardic Inspiration is mostly off/partly on. And I couldn't say whether Great Weapon Master is on or off by default.

3. Speaking of GWM, a toggle would be compatible with attacks of opportunity; the current system isn't.

...

Ok, I can see how a Sneak Attack toggle could work. However, I'm not a fan of the toggle system working in quirky, inconsistent ways. Sneak Attack would be the only toggle to switch positions without direct player input. Given how diligent Larian are about explaining their game systems, that might be too ambitious.

Best to resverve judgement for patch 9. Just four weeks to go...
All good points, especially about different toggles working in inconsistent ways. The main mechanical difference between my suggested toggle is the fact that it automatically turns back on after a single attack with it off, whereas other toggles stay off until you turn them back on. I believe most toggles default to on, so it'd be consistent in that regard.

At the very least, Larian would need to make sure that BG3 tooltips sufficiently explain how each individual toggle works - maybe color code them to indicate their differences?

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
The main mechanical difference between my suggested toggle is the fact that it automatically turns back on after a single attack with it off, whereas other toggles stay off until you turn them back on. I believe most toggles default to on, so it'd be consistent in that regard.
The auto-toggle idea could work well for non-lethal attacks. By the way, that toggle defaults to off, as do metamagics and maybe also riposte? There’s little consistency in the toggle system’s UI or gameplay. I hope patch 9 cleans some of that up.

Edit:
Originally Posted by Don Bartenstein
I dunno, but where I live some people started Christmas weeks ago....
Wait… You live in the future?!

Last edited by Flooter; 24/11/22 04:29 PM. Reason: None, really…

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