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<a whole lot of potentially wrongthink-filled (I am too socially stunted to tell where the line is, I am afraid) rant-like essay-adjacent text ahead>

I realize that the topic I am about to bring up is very incendiary and I wouldn't be surprised if the discussion is quickly nipped in the bud, but I am passionate enough about how the game will turn out in the end to feel like it is something to take into consideration, and don't think that it should be a taboo to have a civil discussion about it. At least I hope it stays civil, because the Steam forums sure are in an uproar now...

The idea/issue itself:
The idea I'd like to touch upon here is that the NPCs should address/interact with the player character based on their appearance - and, therefore, their perceivable sex - rather than their identity. Yes, I do realize that the entire point of the addition is to allow the opposite, but that brings us to the subject of immersiveness, suspension of disbelief, and consistent character behaviour.

We have people like Aradin who would throw racial slurs at tieflings all day long but make sure to get the PC's pronoun right even though at no point did said PC introduce themselves. We have Dror Ragzlin, a hobgoblin, who hardly hails from a standardly "civilized" society and is openly hostile towards the character, and yet he will also address them based not on what they look like but on their identity instead. Even taking into account that he is a telepath thanks to the tadpole, why would he care not to offend somebody he is considering to kill? Them suddenly displaying "politeness" of that kind runs contradictory to how they are portrayed as characters, and makes scenes that are supposed to display danger, anxiety, and hostility come across as artificial and awkward - resulting in a "he is a villain, but at least he gets your pronouns right" moment that is beyond embarrassing from a writing standpoint. Even the friendlier conversations turn into mostly rather harried and currently (or until recently) endangered people interacting with a clearly male- or female-looking PC but somehow magically knowing which form of address to use, with the non-binary ones feeling especially forced and shoe-horned into what was otherwise a natural-sounding line, creating all the effect of how awkward it is to regularly use pronouns other than he/she and their forms in a supposedly informal and clear conversation - and it'd become even more jumbled in translation.

Granted, I am not a native speaker, which is partially why I am having very hard time processing the concept of addressing somebody whom you know or can see and hear right before you with "they" in their presence, making it seem like "they" are not there or their identity is a mystery. Unless pulled off well, it turns conversations set in a fantasy setting into a particularly strictly moderated and rule-bound Discord chat. I can think of Pyre as an example of how to do it right (where you pick whether your companions either can tell that you are male, or female, or they can't and just don't assume your gender at all - with you being described from the appearance perspective as a vague robed figure), but how BG3 uses the concept does make conversations feel very artificial and sanitized. Might as well remove all the racial remarks while we are at it, so that nobody offends anybody, and have the duergar at Grymforge stop abusing their slaves - otherwise why are some forms of oppression portrayed in the game - race-based, enforced - displayed openly and addressed, but misgendering somebody because they don't resemble the commonly percieved appearance of a gender they identify as is a sin that even roughhide mercenaries, slavers and brutish hobgoblin warlords won't commit? Honestly, with how its done, were I to be invested in the subject in question (however, without an incomprehensible (to me) wish to be "represented" in a fictional setting over there being any work done about solving the real-world issues of how certain groups of people are treated...), I would have probably found it as a token gesture at most - then again, some people out there appear to be somehow happy with what is at most a poorly constructed charade of acceptance that does not recognize the issues that a person with an unorthodox identity would face.

On judging by appearance:
This is a setting where people would judge the book by its cover, there is no Internet, no pronoun pins, no globalized cultural values - if anything, were there appearance options to actually make an androgynous-looking character, then it'd make a lot more sense and will work a lot better as a concept (say, a masculine-enough looking male-identifying female character who is genuinely man-like in appearance, or a more feminine-looking male body - yes, the anime tropes, I know) - while what we do have is distinctly male and female models that leave no guesses as to what sex they are, and calling that "gender-independent appearance options" is ve-e-e-e-e-ry generous - at most you could - from the beginning, no less! - apply makeup to a man (the "femininity" of which as a concept differs from culture to culture) or slap a beard on a woman (which could either be read as a developmental anomaly or it's just a dwarf lady) - not on an elf, though. Clothing/underwear doesn't change at all either, so you cannot have, say, male versions of armors on a female model or vice versa - for obvious technical reasons, but the point stands.

I highly doubt that those knockers and those shoulders will leave any bystander actually uncertain as to whether or not they see a male or a female - they clearly don't when you have your character, your companions, and the narrator gendering everything and everyone else based on looks alone - how do they know how the three Chosen, or the mind-controlled cultists, identify without asking them first or probing their minds for it (which does kinda sound like a very sketchy concept when it comes to dealing with the appearance-identity dissonance)? But the player character is somehow always referred to with the chosen pronouns, no matter the context. Why would, for example, Shadowheart, in a moment, say "they" instead of "he" or "she" referring to the PC without ever being prompted to do so, but never once address anyone else as "they"? Lae'zel, effectively an alien, somehow recognizes the male and female characteristics of the Toril humanoids. Why is Gale being all gentlemanly with Shadowheart from the get-go, despite never learning how she identifies - and you could argue that her armor gives her vague enough of a silhouette?

How would anyone just know in a world that, while it has polymorph magic (the whole point of which with the subject at hand in mind is specifically becoming differently perceived, going back to the "judging by the cover" argument, and it opens a whole other drawer of problematic concepts with the ability to assume an appearance of a different race and use that with ulterior motives in mind...) and deities who can manifest however they feel like (they are, well, gods, and it's not exactly a novel idea given how some of the real pantheons look in that regard), is a relatively grounded high-fantasy setting where a good percentage of people, realistically, wouldn't even be literate, let alone not regularly struggling with everyday matters (wars, famine, climate, class-based and sex-based oppression), where nobility is overly obsessed with preserving their bloodlines, where certain cultures have certain expectations and traditions, where there are races which either come in one or neither sex (the hags/nymphs/dryads are all female, and somehow I doubt they'd be questioning their identity despite the chaotic nature of the fey because they specifically utilize their feminine appearance and the recognition of themselves as such both by them and by others as means to an end. Illithids are effectively hermaphrodites, referred to as "it" or sometimes addressed as male because of - again! - their masculine appearance, and so are the beholders, who only call their colony mothers that to honour the mage lady that tore them out of Mechanus), and where religion is heavily intertwined with quite a few societies - like the duergar and their heavily meritocratic cult of Laduguer, or the Menzoberranzan drow. Even the less faith-bound communities would be mostly down-to-earth and with an expectation of "normalcy" exisitng with them.

Adventurers being the odd men (women) out who contradict the norms and the setting being restructured to accomodate that because, rather than make relatively grounded characters that fit into the world (even if non-conforming in some way as part of their character, but with there being reasoning and understanding of where things stand with said non-conforming), players would instead create whatever they pull out of their backside or whatever they want to self-insert as is not a role-playing practice I ever understood, honestly. And what about when the origin characters become available? Will their identity be subject to switching also, if somebody headcanons, say, Karlach, as identifying as male? Will every line where she was ever addressed as female changed too, adding even more rewriting work and extra voiceover to do for this one gimmick that has no impact outside of others addressing the character? I would argue that having an allegedly dooming medical condition that you desperately need to find a cure for is hardly the time to be concerned about what you are perceived as by others and your survival instinct ought to override most other things, but it's probably considered "hate speech"...

On culture and specifics and romances:
Since I've touched on culture, there's another issue that comes with options that certain combinations of races and sexes come with - a female drow is the most prominent example. There are a few instances in the EA where a female drow specifically can use her status in her society as a means to resolve situations in unique ways. Say what you will about the "Lolth-sworn" drow and how messed up their society is, but it is still a matriarchy, the female-born members of which enjoy certain priviliges. The concept of being able to create a male-sex drow that identifies as a female one and characters reacting as they would to a female-female drow basically throws the cultural aspects out the window, again, on the basis of immaterial identity which does raise certain parallels to how one can just abuse said identity as a means to access things that are restricted on the basis of sex - both from a positive light (women disguising themselves as men to attend universities back when they were not allowed to, for example) and a negative one (examples abound, and I'd rather not go into that with how dangerous an edge I am walking already with this topic).

With the drow example I am not convinced that Lolth would let what she will likely see as the worst possible transgression to go unpunished. Will a Rashemi boy with a talent for magic be taken in to be trained as a witch were he to simply assume a female identity, then? Will a character like Shar-Teel from BG1 think that a female-identifying man is anything but a fraud in her eyes? What would the girdle of masculinity/femininity even do to a non-binary character? Rather than tackle what would arise as subjects if identity comes into play, it is simply ignored with such an implementation, so, again, it rings hollow. And there's romances. There was plentiful arguing already as to how making everybody "player-sexual" basically denies the portrayal of any sexuality in the companions, be it straight, homosexual, or bisexual, but with gender identity being thrown into the mix the whole picture becomes even more convoluted when considered, especially since it's apparently the identity RATHER than sex that comes into play during, well, sex (yes, I did create a male-identifying female character to check which version of the Minthara scene will be used for research purposes), resulting in a rather, um, anatomically incorrect scene which is even more awkward and rather absurd-looking from the animation point of view (somewhat muddying the implications of the fact that Larian did bother to make 4 scenes to account for both sexes and both options there!). It... wouldn't exactly work with a male/male scene for example, I am afraid, once these are in. Which version would then be used for a non-binary character, and how is the concept of "affirmation" even regarded there? And why would male drow grovel before a clearly other male-looking one? And so on, and so forth.

On exploring the idea of presentation:

Heck, if it's all about presentation and perception, then the game already used to have the "male" and "female" tags displayed in the character sheet (then hidden a patch or two later, which was as much a cause for an exhausted sigh on my part as was seeing that instead of improved customization options and fixed hair colours we got two heads total and an identity selector...) that specifically said that you "are perceived as others as a male/female of one of the races" or something to that extent, and we already have the Disguise Self spell which allows us to present in a different way. Polymorph Self could serve as an actual opportunity to do a complete makeover of the character. There being more situations where chosen race and sex matter would make for a far deeper roleplaying experience compared to simply chalking it all up to "identity". Let Mayrina be more at ease and open with a female character. Have Oskar, obnoxious as he is, confide in a male one. Have misogynous and misandric characters and allow the player to respond to them appropriately. Have people who are actually attracted to specifically male or female or either characters. Divinity II: Flames of Vengeance had a gender-bender theater quest that required you to use the polymorph services, so this could be the way to expand on that idea. The idenitity could still be there, but be the character's (and, perhaps, their companions', who'd address them as they wish) business - and if being misgendered prompts them to press that attack button, let it be part of the character being played. Or add a line correcting whoever misgenders you into every dialogue that can happen in. Probably not happening. Again, highlighting how such an implementation lacks actual impact in terms of role-playing and making it both offensive to people who don't want it in their games and such and potentially disappointing to those that do - though, again, someplace like Tumblr is positively climaxing (sorry) over it.

Conclusion:
There sure were a few tangents that may have made this pseudo-rant of mine incoherent, and while I am quite certain that is, at most, screaming into the void, given how this is a WotC licensed product and their industry-standard hypocritically "supportive" opinion on the subject in question - but it's something I really felt like throwing out there as pondering material and a form of feedback after playing around with Patch 9 (which is a really good patch - reactions and level 5 are here at last! - although I did hope there will be at least one more large update before the release date, and was confused not to see the shadow-cursed lands added despite them being teased in the Game Awards trailer. And paladins being deity-less is odd, to say the least...), in an environment that wouldn't devolve into the most unpleasant and hateful individuals from both sides of the argument throwing excrement at each other and exchanging titles like <insert slur> and "snowflake" (Steam forums) or the topic just getting immediately nuked and removed from existence because contradicting the narrative even in a rationalized form is not allowed (Reddit).

Even if the aforementioned idea is out of the question because of how it may be perceived as "hateful", or "offensive", or "discriminatory", suspension of disbelief and every other form of discrimination the game already has be damned, it'd at least be a considerate move, in my opinion, to allow people who are bothered by the very presence of a gender identity option either out of plain old bigotry or because they are genuinely offended by the concept on account of the negative connotations associated with it (which I'd rather not delve too deeply into so that this post does not invariably cross the line that it already may have anyway), to not have it in the game at all or at least have it be hidden behind a checkbox or something ("Custom identity", for example), whereas those who are for some reason, that, I am afraid, I am too narrow-minded or not socially aware enough to comprehend, feel euphoria from having their character in a game be referred to by their preferred pronouns or don't mind the fact that the interactions and dialogues suddenly become, um, modernized or downright absurd at times would just install a free DLC or tick said checkbox. The DLC approach will also serve as a good customer data point, as to see just how many people are actually interested in or cannot play without having the option, while those who are upset at the very sight of it for whichever reason - perhaps even because they don't consider it an appropriate way of representation! - can have a game that just does not contain said option. It, at least to me, seems like a solution that would in some capacity appease both sides in the argument.

Or you could just rewrite and revoice the whole game so that the PC and everyone else are treated equally rather than the player character being the only one (I guess there's also Yrre the Sparkstruck, who is very bad with names for inventions, I must say, and whom many seem to just agree on being a lady, last I checked) with identity mattering over their perceiveable sex. I doubt that's happening. All in all, I would argue that having no option at all, which didn't exactly preclude anybody from playing the game and not going on rants while still head-canoning their characters as whatever identity they desired while they were seen as the sex they were (going back to the few paragraphs earlier as to how it makes sense considering every other instance of gendering others), would be better than having it in the form introduced, which contradicts the rest of the writing and world-building and results in culture warfare over a part of the franchise that many people are nostalgic about (I guess it's not new for it, though, going back to the Siege of Dragonspear days)...

...also, I couldn't help but notice how in the same patch notes mentioning the addition of identity there were plenty of specifically males and females having their animations fixed and the like. Mixed signals much? Anyway, this post has already dragged on long enough, and I can only hope it just doesn't get locked after having put 4 hours into comprising it....

Last edited by Brainer; 18/12/22 11:04 AM. Reason: Comprehensiveness? Comprehedability? It being readable
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I can agree with your points, but it seems to me like people who want to use they them or he/she on the opposite gender are gonna have a worse game, if it means so much to them, let them?

Yeah they will get a weird experience, but likely they care more about having the character they make be like them, then the story feeling natural.

Just use the pronouns that dont feel jarring to you.


Hopefully larrian dont waste loads of resources polishing the non binary world so if actually makes sence, maybe our custom character need badges saying they/them so dror knows what pronouns to use when addressing the MC

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I haven't read the whole thing.
Your logic is undeniable, it is seen from the start. But, and it is a very big but....
Why would you rob those people who want this nonsense in their game of this feature? It is not forced upon you in any way and is there just to please the loud minority, that is all. How does it break immersion if you choose the conventional genders for yourself?

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I personally have no issue with what they're adding into the game regarding minorities. It's there for those who care about such things in order to feel better because to them it is an important aspect of life. Naturally it won't make sense injecting modern politics into a medieval fantasy, it will break immersion and such... but immersion and such are not the point of the feature. The point is to make the person feel included, acknowledged and be able to roleplay how they want to, even if it does not make 100% sense. That is the whole point of art, to escape from the injustice of the real world. So since it is optional, I just see it as an accessiblity option so I don't really care what they do with it as it's clearly not a feature meant for me.

As for character customization and how they could have improved that instead of added more features... I am quite pissy about what they did to hair colors and I'm quite annoyed that I went from being able to choose the entire color spectrum of realistically natural colors and being able to create such beautiful unique characters, even from different IPs... to being forced to just a single color (Black Raven) and no longer able to create characters that I want because all the colors look like they belong to damn circus clowns. However they're not really improving drastically any other aspects of the game either. So I do not think that the inclusion of pronouns would have affected the lack of improvements to the character customization.

Each patch is breaking more and more things, so whether they included certain features or not, the character customization would still be in the same state as it is now. Just like keybindings for spells are still missing and other issues. I doubt the inclusion of pronouns is the cause why we have no keybindings grin

So overall I don't think anyone should see it as an issue. It's optional, it doesn't affect those who don't want to be affected. Those who do end up using the feature, I hope they provide feedback so it could be improved further.

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Originally Posted by Xzoviac
I can agree with your points, but it seems to me like people who want to use they them or he/she on the opposite gender are gonna have a worse game, if it means so much to them, let them?
this! what do i care how they play the game..

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Hey Brainer,

I more or less agree with the meat and majority of what you had to say here, and the only place I'd diverge would be to say that as long as it's something that only comes into play if the player chooses to select it, then more options is good.

I also share your hope that responses can remain polite and civil and people can behave themselves around this topic.

What I will say is that reading your post, as it is now, was taxing; people who come into the thread predisposed to disagree with you will most certainly not get through reading it properly in its present state. If you can, maybe try to find some places to break up the paragraphs a bit more to create an easier reading experience for everyone who stops by?

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I didn't read the whole thing, but I think I get the gyst. I suspect that people interested in the feature is less about being "realistic" but being included. One can create a character a character one identifies with. I feel that the pool of players who would genuilly want to pick gender neutral pronaun but then be upset that NPCs don't discriminate based on it, would be very, very small.

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Originally Posted by Niara
Hey Brainer,

I more or less agree with the meat and majority of what you had to say here, and the only place I'd diverge would be to say that as long as it's something that only comes into play if the player chooses to select it, then more options is good.

I also share your hope that responses can remain polite and civil and people can behave themselves around this topic.

What I will say is that reading your post, as it is now, was taxing; people who come into the thread predisposed to disagree with you will most certainly not get through reading it properly in its present state. If you can, maybe try to find some places to break up the paragraphs a bit more to create an easier reading experience for everyone who stops by?
Did just that. Happy to hear that people here are open to discussing this.

Quote
Why would you rob those people who want this nonsense in their game of this feature? It is not forced upon you in any way and is there just to please the loud minority, that is all. How does it break immersion if you choose the conventional genders for yourself?

I specifically mention in the final part (now it should be less of a poorly constructed blanket) that there could be a way to both have it in for people who desperately want it and for there to be an option to exclude it if it's something that doesn't float with people well. I see it as a more or less just and balanced way, but people tend to find a way to be offended at just about anything, so... who knows?

Between Solasta which allows to "pick a pronoun" that does not. Get. Used. A. Single. Time - and here, where everybody suddenly is a politely affirming telepath, I don't see either approach as particularly... genuine? At least it's not "body type A and B". Small victories...

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@ Brainer

This is of course a particularly exciting, complex and sensitive topic, where many shy away from putting their thoughts etc. into words beforehand. For that reason alone, great respect to you for even thinking about it and sharing it. After all, it is communication that connects us and brings us closer together when we want to better understand the motives, feelings, needs, etc. pp. of the other person.

Such a sensitive topic can really make waves very quickly, and in both directions, as was the case with Beamdog's Mizhena at the time. The indignation about this NPC quickly turned into hatred. I thought the character was successful, as it also addressed another social issue here, besides transgender, but was unfortunately overshadowed by that. If I recall correctly, Mizhena wanted to do or be something different professionally than her father wanted her to be. That means even without the transgender issue, this would be about a classic generational conflict issue where the child didn't want to follow in the desired footsteps of the parent e.g. continuing the family business because they would rather be an itinerant artist.

This reminded me of the movie Trainspotting when Begbie hooks up with a girl in his car and finds out the girl is transgender. Begbie, of course, is a crazy, evil a****** in this movie and, of course, completely freaks out. (He doesn't attack the person, but demolishes the car). From there your remarks about evil BG 3 characters, who are aboslut evil but suddenly use gender language, already have their justification, because it would simply be ambivalent behavior that negatively affects the immersion.

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I suppose in an ideal game, there would be two further options:
- a.) NPCs respect your chosen pronouns
- b.) NPCs use pronouns matching your presenting sex, along with all the stuff that comes with that.
The latter would address the things you take issue with @OP and provide a more "realistic, immersive" experience (if possibly a more hostile, un-fun experience).

People (can) play games as an escape, so allowing the option for NPCs in this fantasy world to always recognize you by your preferred pronoun can vastly improve some people's experience with the game.

But, Larian has limited resource and time, so if the choice is between "you can't choose your pronouns" and "you can choose your pronouns and all NPCs automatically respect that choice"...the latter seems strictly superior as it adds an option without affecting gameplay of the first choice.

Last edited by mrfuji3; 18/12/22 04:33 PM. Reason: p.s. I only skimmed your post OP. It's long.
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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
But, Larian has limited resource and time, so if the choice is between "you can't choose your pronouns" and "you can choose your pronouns and all NPCs automatically respect that choice"...the latter seems strictly superior as it adds an option without affecting gameplay of the first choice.

100% agree.

I’d be interested in any constructive criticisms of the way that identity has been implemented from gamers who genuinely want to roleplay a transgender character and feel that the game isn’t letting them do that convincingly enough, as these are the people the option is there for. Anyone else not happy with the way it works can currently easily avoid this aspect.

That said, I personally wouldn’t see it as positive if gamers could easily experience the game setting as one in which transgender and non-binary folk don’t exist, and would be very happy to see convincingly realised transgender/non-binary NPCs, but that’s a whole different topic from how identity is handled for the main character.


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Originally Posted by Brainer
I specifically mention in the final part (now it should be less of a poorly constructed blanket) that there could be a way to both have it in for people who desperately want it and for there to be an option to exclude it if it's something that doesn't float with people well.

but.... why? How do people get offended by the sheer existance of non-binary folk? Or sorry, 'it doesn't float with people well'.... I dont get it. More options is good, you dont have to use it, and when the sheer existance of something so harmless gives you that much trouble.... maybe cool down a little bit (not adressing you specifically, just the people who 'it doesnt float with')

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Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by Brainer
I specifically mention in the final part (now it should be less of a poorly constructed blanket) that there could be a way to both have it in for people who desperately want it and for there to be an option to exclude it if it's something that doesn't float with people well.

but.... why? How do people get offended by the sheer existance of non-binary folk? Or sorry, 'it doesn't float with people well'.... I dont get it. More options is good, you dont have to use it, and when the sheer existance of something so harmless gives you that much trouble.... maybe cool down a little bit (not adressing you specifically, just the people who 'it doesnt float with')

There are places in the world where identity agenda is defining society right now. It is a topic of hot debate, a lot of people are supporting this as the right step towards the better future and some people dread the idea of living and having families in that kind of future. I am personally not affected by those ideological tensions at all, thats why it is so easy for me to "float with it". But for someone it might be a very alarming thing. Lets at least consider their POV as well.

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Originally Posted by neprostoman
Originally Posted by Sigi98
Originally Posted by Brainer
I specifically mention in the final part (now it should be less of a poorly constructed blanket) that there could be a way to both have it in for people who desperately want it and for there to be an option to exclude it if it's something that doesn't float with people well.

but.... why? How do people get offended by the sheer existance of non-binary folk? Or sorry, 'it doesn't float with people well'.... I dont get it. More options is good, you dont have to use it, and when the sheer existance of something so harmless gives you that much trouble.... maybe cool down a little bit (not adressing you specifically, just the people who 'it doesnt float with')

There are places in the world where identity agenda is defining society right now. It is a topic of hot debate, a lot of people are supporting this as the right step towards the better future and some people dread the idea of living and having families in that kind of future. I am personally not affected by those ideological tensions at all, thats why it is so easy for me to "float with it". But for someone it might be a very alarming thing. Lets at least consider their POV as well.

I am trying really hard to consider it, but I just cant see how it could be an alarming thing, when non-binary people are not harming anyone or anything. They just wanna be seen.

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Originally Posted by Brainer
On judging by appearance:
This is a setting where people would judge the book by its cover, there is no Internet, no pronoun pins, no globalized cultural values - if anything, were there appearance options to actually make an androgynous-looking character, then it'd make a lot more sense and will work a lot better as a concept (say, a masculine-enough looking male-identifying female character who is genuinely man-like in appearance, or a more feminine-looking male body - yes, the anime tropes, I know) - while what we do have is distinctly male and female models that leave no guesses as to what sex they are, and calling that "gender-independent appearance options" is ve-e-e-e-e-ry generous - at most you could - from the beginning, no less! - apply makeup to a man (the "femininity" of which as a concept differs from culture to culture) or slap a beard on a woman (which could either be read as a developmental anomaly or it's just a dwarf lady) - not on an elf, though. Clothing/underwear doesn't change at all either, so you cannot have, say, male versions of armors on a female model or vice versa - for obvious technical reasons, but the point stands.

I highly doubt that those knockers and those shoulders will leave any bystander actually uncertain as to whether or not they see a male or a female - they clearly don't when you have your character, your companions, and the narrator gendering everything and everyone else based on looks alone - how do they know how the three Chosen, or the mind-controlled cultists, identify without asking them first or probing their minds for it (which does kinda sound like a very sketchy concept when it comes to dealing with the appearance-identity dissonance)? But the player character is somehow always referred to with the chosen pronouns, no matter the context. Why would, for example, Shadowheart, in a moment, say "they" instead of "he" or "she" referring to the PC without ever being prompted to do so, but never once address anyone else as "they"? Lae'zel, effectively an alien, somehow recognizes the male and female characteristics of the Toril humanoids. Why is Gale being all gentlemanly with Shadowheart from the get-go, despite never learning how she identifies - and you could argue that her armor gives her vague enough of a silhouette?

How would anyone just know in a world that, while it has polymorph magic (the whole point of which with the subject at hand in mind is specifically becoming differently perceived, going back to the "judging by the cover" argument, and it opens a whole other drawer of problematic concepts with the ability to assume an appearance of a different race and use that with ulterior motives in mind...) and deities who can manifest however they feel like (they are, well, gods, and it's not exactly a novel idea given how some of the real pantheons look in that regard), is a relatively grounded high-fantasy setting where a good percentage of people, realistically, wouldn't even be literate, let alone not regularly struggling with everyday matters (wars, famine, climate, class-based and sex-based oppression), where nobility is overly obsessed with preserving their bloodlines, where certain cultures have certain expectations and traditions, where there are races which either come in one or neither sex (the hags/nymphs/dryads are all female, and somehow I doubt they'd be questioning their identity despite the chaotic nature of the fey because they specifically utilize their feminine appearance and the recognition of themselves as such both by them and by others as means to an end. Illithids are effectively hermaphrodites, referred to as "it" or sometimes addressed as male because of - again! - their masculine appearance, and so are the beholders, who only call their colony mothers that to honour the mage lady that tore them out of Mechanus), and where religion is heavily intertwined with quite a few societies - like the duergar and their heavily meritocratic cult of Laduguer, or the Menzoberranzan drow. Even the less faith-bound communities would be mostly down-to-earth and with an expectation of "normalcy" exisitng with them.

Adventurers being the odd men (women) out who contradict the norms and the setting being restructured to accomodate that because, rather than make relatively grounded characters that fit into the world (even if non-conforming in some way as part of their character, but with there being reasoning and understanding of where things stand with said non-conforming), players would instead create whatever they pull out of their backside or whatever they want to self-insert as is not a role-playing practice I ever understood, honestly. And what about when the origin characters become available? Will their identity be subject to switching also, if somebody headcanons, say, Karlach, as identifying as male? Will every line where she was ever addressed as female changed too, adding even more rewriting work and extra voiceover to do for this one gimmick that has no impact outside of others addressing the character? I would argue that having an allegedly dooming medical condition that you desperately need to find a cure for is hardly the time to be concerned about what you are perceived as by others and your survival instinct ought to override most other things, but it's probably considered "hate speech"...


On exploring the idea of presentation:

Heck, if it's all about presentation and perception, then the game already used to have the "male" and "female" tags displayed in the character sheet (then hidden a patch or two later, which was as much a cause for an exhausted sigh on my part as was seeing that instead of improved customization options and fixed hair colours we got two heads total and an identity selector...) that specifically said that you "are perceived as others as a male/female of one of the races" or something to that extent, and we already have the Disguise Self spell which allows us to present in a different way. Polymorph Self could serve as an actual opportunity to do a complete makeover of the character. There being more situations where chosen race and sex matter would make for a far deeper roleplaying experience compared to simply chalking it all up to "identity". Let Mayrina be more at ease and open with a female character. Have Oskar, obnoxious as he is, confide in a male one. Have misogynous and misandric characters and allow the player to respond to them appropriately. Have people who are actually attracted to specifically male or female or either characters. Divinity II: Flames of Vengeance had a gender-bender theater quest that required you to use the polymorph services, so this could be the way to expand on that idea. The idenitity could still be there, but be the character's (and, perhaps, their companions', who'd address them as they wish) business - and if being misgendered prompts them to press that attack button, let it be part of the character being played. Or add a line correcting whoever misgenders you into every dialogue that can happen in. Probably not happening. Again, highlighting how such an implementation lacks actual impact in terms of role-playing and making it both offensive to people who don't want it in their games and such and potentially disappointing to those that do - though, again, someplace like Tumblr is positively climaxing (sorry) over it.


By this standard then, Dragonborn should be generally referred to as they/them by NPCs, since their gender is significantly harder to just figure out by appearance and presentation than, say, a human's. Sure, it can probabaly be done if you know what you're looking for, but most regular people won't be able to discern it.
Or... we let this game be a game, where everybody can play their imaginary character in a fantasy world like they want to, without the judgement of others...

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Originally Posted by neprostoman
But for someone it might be a very alarming thing. Lets at least consider their POV as well.

It does undeniably seem to be the case that there are people for whom the mere inclusion of transgender content is upsetting, and I don’t actively want to make anyone uncomfortable. But this doesn’t seem to be a situation in which fence-sitting is possible. Either transgender identities are excluded from the game to avoid challenging prejudices at the cost of inclusion or representation for an (admittedly very roughly) estimated 1% of people and those who support them. Or such content is included at the cost of discomfort for those who would prefer to ignore the fact that not everyone feels they fit into a neat gender binary. However much I understand that there are those who would prefer option one, I’m always going to pick the latter option and am happy to see Larian and other companies doing the same.


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Isn't this a question of verisimilitude? It's one thing to consider your character non-binary, but it's a flip being switched for the whole world, not only that, your character might be the only non-binary person in the whole game, yet for everyone it will go by without comment. At times is might strain credulity.

I know so little about Dragonborn that for all I know, they could reproduce asexually. Do they lay eggs? Does each sex have secondary sexual characteristics, it wouldn't be a matter of people calling them 'they' it would be a matter of a race of people who might not even have gendered pronouns. All Dragonborn might be 'He', because that's what they're consider the best translation from whatever language they speak....Draconic? This is reminding me of a subplot in Discworld.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Originally Posted by neprostoman
But for someone it might be a very alarming thing. Lets at least consider their POV as well.

It does undeniably seem to be the case that there are people for whom the mere inclusion of transgender content is upsetting, and I don’t actively want to make anyone uncomfortable. But this doesn’t seem to be a situation in which fence-sitting is possible. Either transgender identities are excluded from the game to avoid challenging prejudices at the cost of inclusion or representation for an (admittedly very roughly) estimated 1% of people and those who support them. Or such content is included at the cost of discomfort for those who would prefer to ignore the fact that not everyone feels they fit into a neat gender binary. However much I understand that there are those who would prefer option one, I’m always going to pick the latter option and am happy to see Larian and other companies doing the same.

So, are there people that have a reason to be against the inclusion policies? What do you think? Because from your message I get the vibe that you are clearly putting "people for whom the mere inclusion of transgender content is upsetting" to the foreground. I've read news about people whose life's were ruined because they didn't want to address seemingly men/women by certain pronounces. I think those people have the right to feel prejudice and concern and we should do our best to include them, and calm them, as well. Or else this is hypocrisy, imo.

P.S. If I didn't understand your post proper, please correct me and accept my apologies.

Last edited by neprostoman; 18/12/22 06:37 PM. Reason: Typo
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You cannot equalize being marginalized, and being made aware of other people being marginalized, as being somehow equally uncomforable and harmful. It is the entitlement of thinking that how other people live their lifes not only affects your life, but because you are affected by it you somehow get a say in what is allowed.

Originally Posted by Sozz
Isn't this a question of verisimilitude? It's one thing to consider your character non-binary, but it's a flip being switched for the whole world, not only that, your character might be the only non-binary person in the whole game, yet for everyone it will go by without comment. At times is might strain credulity.

If you dont play a non-binary character, then you wont be experiencing any 'credulity straining' things - you wont even come into contact with they/them pronouns in the game. But for a person who are themselves non-binary and want to play a non-binary character, it might just be nice for once to immerse themselves in a world in which they are not constantly confronted with bigotry, but simply respected for who they are. How anyone can argue against this basic thing is beyond me.

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I get that, I'm not saying the option shouldn't be available to you, just that without it being meaningfully integrated into the world, what are you really being given? A lot of people create elaborate head canons about their characters, and this seems like little more than that.

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