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The dialogue options are as opaque as "be nice, try to bang" and "be mean, to not bang". There is no nuance, no avenue for actual character development or exploration.

More to the point, as many have mentioned, sex and complex relationships have potential to add a lot to narrative and role playing, but this isn't that. And not only is this not that, it's badly done on top of it. The writing is insipidly juvenile.

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Originally Posted by pachanj
Like BG3, every single conversation moves you towards sex in POE2. Every single one of them. You can't just talk to someone to learn about their lore without trying to fuck them. And that is poor writing.

I didn’t make it far through PoE 2 so can’t comment on that, but agree BG3 is currently clunky with what seems to be the same attitude system used to measure both platonic liking and sexual attraction in the early game. Of course those are different things, and while I’d settle for handwaving the current approach given it’s not realistic to expect all nuance of relationship building to be implemented in the game, I’d be more than happy if the writing and story-telling in this respect were improved.

Originally Posted by pachanj
I'm sorry that you feel affinity towards it. I cringe to think that that's how people approach real life relationships

Gah! More unnecessarily confrontational language in this thread.


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Originally Posted by Eyebreaker
For those of you that have sided with, BLAH BLAH BLAH... that.

There is nothing wrong with the level of sex or nudity in this game, its got a rating, this is how this works in media and entertainment. Don't be triggered by this persons conservative pearl clutching perspective.

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"How to close have a thread closed by mods : lessons 1 to 10"

Tip : "All caps" text is code for shouting. People will read this as such. That's how communication works.
If you want to highlight some part of you text, you can use paragraphs, bold font, underlines, colors and so on.
The "quick reply" presents a "Use Full Editor" which would help with this.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by MelivySilverRoot
"How to close have a thread closed by mods : lessons 1 to 10"

Tip : "All caps" text is code for shouting. People will read this as such. That's how communication works.
If you want to highlight some part of you text, you can use paragraphs, bold font, underlines, colors and so on.
The "quick reply" presents a "Use Full Editor" which would help with this.

Cheers!

Fair enough. Good to know. Thank you. I'll try to remember this.

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Originally Posted by MelivySilverRoot
"How to close have a thread closed by mods : lessons 1 to 10"
Couldn't say it better, this thread looks like a Steam forums thread with all of their flaws.

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You might think it's unnecessary, Red Queen, but I think it is wholly pertinent.

The argument in support of these kinds of encounters in games is based upon the maturity of adult situations and complexity.

If this is a representation of what that complexity means to the people supporting it ... I don't for a second think that the psychology of merging active and passive forms of agency is irrelevant.

I don't buy the "oh but it's a game" excuse for a second. These are expressions of desired behaviour without the constraints of morality, and the game is just an accessory to masturbation at that point.

There are plenty of games like this, such as Leisure Suit Larry and the like, but at least they don't hide it under the guise of being "mature, dark roleplaying." They don't pretend to be more. And the people playing them don't pretend they're more. And, to press the point, in Leisure Suit Larry, you actually have to TRY to win people over.

People who buy Harlequin Romance know what they are looking for and they want it. People who buy Anne Rice but get Danielle Steele instead are GOING to be angry. Imagine buying Stephen King's latest horror only to find out it was actually written by Dean Koontz.

And again, back to the original distinctions being made ... there is nothing objectively wrong with any of this in terms of desire.

But THIS GAME ... doesn't fit in THAT MEDIUM. and THIS GAME is the topic at hand.

edit: I feel the need to point out the obvious - this is MY OPINION. Not me telling you yours is wrong.

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Originally Posted by pachanj
You might think it's unnecessary, Red Queen, but I think it is wholly pertinent.

edit: I feel the need to point out the obvious - this is MY OPINION. Not me telling you yours is wrong.

Of course there’s nothing wrong with expressing your opinion. And I agree with some but not all of what you say.

Originally Posted by pachanj
I'm sorry that you feel affinity towards it. I cringe to think that that's how people approach real life relationships

My point was merely that the above sentences, specifically, seemed to be more about throwing shade on others’ views rather than expressing your own.

But while I’ve been trying to appeal for some moderation and mutual respect in the way we engage with one another I think I’m now just contributing to the general ruckus, so that’s me now out of this thread.


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Originally Posted by neprostoman
How is a sex scene in a setting based on the exaggerated real life (all fantasy is that) inappropriate? A lot of books have that, a lot of the time a romantic/sexual aspect kicks in later in the story or even in sequels. Take Witcher books for example. Take game of thrones. Take DnD campaigns even. Those are all FUN but have sex.
I watched little game of thrones due to what I would describe gratuitous violence and nudity (aka. Violence and nudity serving little to no narrative purpose and seemed to be there to shock/entertain viewer) and Witcher is hardly a positive example of consistently handling “mature content” well, especially in later books, though I was more favourable towards the books in my teens. Even so, it is Baldur’s Gate, not GoT nor Witcher. Even outside the franchise, game’s tone is all over the place. Perhaps if they included as much over the top slapstick in their sex scenes as they do in combat it would feel more coherent.

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In Game of Thrones, violence serves a great narrative purpose. They often use it in important story moments, such as when a character is in danger or dies. You actually see that in every detail. So it does not create a shock but makes the shock from a character's death stronger. It also feels much more intimate, because of how real it is. You can project your own body and your own senses onto this character. It is disturbing, but this is the main point. As for nudity - well, it does not look like entertaining nudity. It often grim - depict women like sex objects in this world, or shows how characters manipulate each other or simply do not care about each other (like scenes in brothels). I think it fits the setting extremely well, and even if it is sometimes needed only to shock a viewer - it also serves a narrative purpose. This setting should feel uncomfortable. All of this can also be said about the Witcher, but sometimes it feels like Andrzej Sapkowski just wanted to entertain, yes. Well, I guess we need to know that Geralt is successful with women. It does not look like a bad thing. At least it can attract a new audience.

And as far as I know - Forgotten realms is a relatively dark setting too, and the first two games are not fairy tale stories. Hard to say how they would be depicted with modern technologies. Looks like a good D&D setting to introduce all these narrative methods for me.

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Originally Posted by Eyebreaker
For those of you that have sided with, and romanced, Minthara instead of killing her you know what I'm talking about. For those of you that don't know I will elaborate. There is the option to side with Minthara insteead of just killing her. She has you go back to the grove and signal for her and her invading force and then you open the gate and let them in and help them take over the grove. You then get to romance her that night at the party. There is quite the surprise in store for you when you watch the night sex scene with her. It's literally borderline pron. They don't actually show any genetalia but they show her going down on you and then they switch to you lieing on a table and she climbs on top of you and you 69 each other. Yes the game says it has nudity. Yes the game says sexual content. I was NOT excpectting some teenagers wet dream borderline cartoon porn in my GAME. This is really quite rediculous. Thank you for basically ruining the Baldur's Gate franchise with unnescesary smut. Don't get me wrong, I like porn. NOT cartoon porn. Seriously? If you're one of those people that gets off on cartoon porn I truely am sorry for you. I'm NOT trying to call you a bad person or anything but it really is pretty messed up. But like a lot of things it's not something someone can actually choose to like or not like. You either do or you don't. I certainly don't. I certainly don't need it in my GAME. Yes some games are actually designed around sexual content. But this is D&D and it's Baldur's Gate. NOT Debby does Baldur!
I know some of you are thinking "You don't have to play this game" or "You don't have to watch it" but the thing is this is part of my 2nd favorite game franchise so of course I want to play it. No I don't want to watch the porn part of it but I DID watch it just to see exactly how far they were going to go with it. Pretty far! It's not only mentally disturbing but we actually are forced to PAY for this garbage if we want to play the game! Can I have a cheaper NON-PORN version please? Seriously! Why do we even need to put this crap in a GAME to begin with? Ok so we can romance others in the group. Fine! Doesn't require someone wasting time and money programing in actual cartoon porn that we are forced to pay for whether we want it or not. There's enough problems with this game and now i also have to PAY for cartoon porn too? Wow! Love you guys. LOTS of sarcasm there for those not keen enough to pick up on that.

DO NOT DARE TOUCH MY CUTSCENES!! JUST USE YOUR LEFT HAND :P. All joking aside, i think they can add a setting on in the main menu to turn of all 18+ scenes. Simple fix really.

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Originally Posted by Qoray
Originally Posted by Piff
No, he's just being belittling to people who might like cartoon porn. Honestly though, as someone who actually looks at 3d rendered porn, I find BG3's intimate scenes to be more far more awkward than arousing.

So the problem is that the porn is not good enough? lol

Actually, yes ^.^

As others have mentioned, this is not 'new' in any way - it's been in the game for a long time and it's been advertised as something you can do if you want to pursue it for just as long. there were even interviews that spoke about it, and their efforts to write and choreograph it.

It's important to note that - it's there if you want to pursue it, and if you don't want to pursue it, you can very easily turn people down, or not invite them to intimacy. Even if you meet all the conditions, you actively have to make the choice that says 'Yes, sir or madam, I would indeed like to have one sex with you, please!", and you are given two to three dialogue opportunities once you're in that conversation to back out of it again. You've really got to want to see it, to do so.

That said, there are those who want the story element to recognise that their character has become intimate with someone else, and to acknowledge that sex and intimacy are a part of the world (shock-horror!), without seeing it directly - that's fine too, and I support Larian adding in a setting that will be something you can easily turn on or off from the menu that will black fade the scene or not play them... but that may mean that some players will miss out on some relationship development, since, though it may surprise some people, sex is often the medium during which other growths and explorations of relationships happen - you get a choice or two in the post-coital glow with Minthara, and the dialogue decisions you make there are firmly entangled with the visual on screen at the time, which involves, at minimum, a naked breast or two.

So, my criticism is, yes, that the scenes as we're able to see right now are simply not satisfactory enough. They aren't well choreographed, they aren't well shot, they're awkward and clunky, and they have no pacing, no atmosphere and no emotion as a result; they are poorly done, and they don't adapt well to the character you bring to the scene either.

Just to illustrate that this has been along standing issue, and to say things more clearly than I will in this post, I'd like to invite those genuinely interested in a discussion of the scene and how it is designed to look over here:

Focused Feedback: Minthara's Intimacy [Heavy Spoilers][potentially NSFW screenshots and language]

==

As an aside - this seems to have flared up as a conversation topic right now, apparently because of something that data-miners found. As far as I've been able to see, the nudity that is in the game right now is purely female upper-body nudity, because the game models are barbie and ken dolls on their lower half, and smooth around the bends - we have modelled and textured nipples (and always have had for all female characters, player and NPC alike), but nothing down below. Was something found recently that changes this?

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
My point was merely that the above statement seemed to be more about throwing shade on others’ views rather than expressing your own.
and I stand by my opinion that this (the game's approach to sex) is a cringeworthy expression of mature/adult behaviour and sexual/romantic relationships in a medium designed to provide agency to a demographic categorically known for taking things too far and hyper focusing on repetition. this isn't throwing shade on other people's opinions.

I didn't specifically name anyone, because this is a comment on the unhealthy depiction of such content. And it's inappropriate, tonally, to the rest of the franchise. I again point to the difference between D&D tables where the players are more prone to try and sleep with everything than go off adventuring. That is clearly the kind of table that Swen runs.

The fact that the character creation process includes a "design your ideal fuck doll" section is a MASSIVE RED FLAG for the rest of the game's treatment of sex and maturity. Most of this is a moot point anyway because it's not going anywhere. But that doesn't for a moment absolve Larian of the well earned criticisms of very badly made fiction presented irresponsibly.

edit: you can't claim maturely addressing content like this without being willing to engage on the responsibility side of things. that's kind of the marker between maturity and immaturity: taking responsibility.

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I can't help but laugh looking at the raunchy frames from the Minthara romance thread. And I don't think that was the intent there.

I would like romance to be a part of the game but it really can't be comedy soft porn like this. Turning the companions down just to avoid these... scenes... would also feel wrong.

Seriously Larian... take your time building romantic developments and don't force these awkward "do you want to sleep with me tonight" choices on us at the first party if we haven't even flirted at all. Lae'zel is believable being so bluntly direct about it from out of the blue but the rest, not so much.

And the explicit (somewhat acrobatic, even) positions are 100% comedy. The game graphics and animation make it worse when you try to be too detailed. Please keep it to simple shots and leave the rest up to the player's imagination.

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I do not understand how to quote yet, so to Niara - ''Was something found recently that changes this?''. Yes, actually there are moders who claim they found female genitalia in Patch 9 files and implemented it with some awkward clipping issues.

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Originally Posted by pachanj
that's kind of the marker between maturity and immaturity: taking responsibility.

So, a long as we can sit up suddenly, the morning after, and immediately start shouting at our bedfellow about how they have to take responsibility now, we'll be set....

No wait, that means we've ended up in a bad hentai... my mistake ^.^

(this is said entirely tongue in cheek, I promise)

==

Thanks for the info, Garold. I'm curious about what they intend with that, in that case; a section of my discussions on intimate scenes and choreography has to do with what you shoot and how you shoot it, and the atmosphere and tone that you're aiming for - and one of the major conclusions I reached was that they either need to change the shooting of most of their scenes in numerous ways, or the models need to be 'complete' down below - and that anything else just makes the scenes ridiculous. I'd admit surprise if they decided that to choose the latter of those two options, but I'll wait to see what they do with it. Personally, I think it's brave of them to do this, as full-in as they are, and I'm not against it; I'd like more control over the intimate scenes (the ability to pick options for how I behave, or what I want the encounter to be like), and I'd like them to be done well... and I actually hope they do not get shy, or cave in to stigma, and make a solid effort of it instead.

==

I will say... I looked at the assets that have been mined, and it made me think... okay, but, there aren't any waxing salons on the chionthir, so... will I get to choose my personal grooming preference? Shameless as it is, I kinda would like to be able to define that, if we're going all in on this element of charcater design.

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Originally Posted by Eyebreaker
... I don't think it belongs in D&D at all ...

You... have very different kinds of friends you play D&D with than I do. Insert bard joke here.

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Originally Posted by pachanj
every single conversation moves you towards sex in POE2. Every single one of them. You can't just talk to someone to learn about their lore without trying to fuck them. You had to actively try NOT to fuck them.

I have [... checks Steam ...] over 800 hours into POE2. That is very much not my experience.

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Originally Posted by colinl8
You... have very different kinds of friends you play D&D with than I do. Insert bard joke here.

Right?

Almost every game I've ever played has had adult content of different levels, and I once played in a game where we resolved several situations with an application of gratuitous sex (no, I'm not joking), and had two separate dragons try it on with my character. In all cases we had fade-to-black sex scenes (yes, even in that one game), and players sometimes got their boundaries a bit pushed, but a little bit of respectful conversation between players and DM went a long way towards resolving any issues we had regarding sexual content.

Sometimes, people view their character's sexual preferences (or lack thereof) as an important part of what makes up their whole character, and sometimes they don't. People's comfort regarding sexual content varies wildly, and this is why I'm very much in favour of people being able to opt-out of sex scenes if they want to. I get that Larian perhaps wants to push on some boundaries, but that isn't going to be something everyone likes or wants.

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Did they change something? Did they make it so you can accidentally trigger the sex scenes?

I am one who hopes that Larian will provide some ability to censor the game for people like me who would like romance with a fade to black so we don't need to watch naughty business if we don't want to but we can still have the ability to see the dialogue sequences afterwards, etc. However, there is a positive way and a negative to ask for it. Most of this thread does not seem positive.

Yes. I'd like the ability to turn off vulgarity and sex. However, fighting with other forum members is not going to make that happen.

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