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Hey, OP. I think you raise very good, and respectful, questions. There is certainly nothing wrong with them. I also sympathize as a fellow overthinker.

However, be it stealth or identity sliders... I have one firm stance. That is, features should be targeted at the people enjoying them.

I don't think that's either you or me. Larian should poll the people interested for best results. Having a questline about gender identity, flat chests for body models (because binding) could be good. Lots of options theoretically available.

I also have another point: voice training. If in doubt, how would you conclude someone's gender?

I assume trans Tav has simply taken steps to either pass or be ambigeous enough that people clock them by voice. Of course, that is an in universe explanation, not what the player /has/ to do. However, that's good enough for me.

Sex scenes and genital preferences... In real life, these are relevant questions. In a game, where nothing is real, I'm quite satisfied with simply NPCs having none. The execution of sex scenes is another matter, but that brings me back to "just ask trans people".

Nonbinary people do not appear to have been included in this game. I wouldn't roleplay as myself anyway, but I'm also already quite glad they're trying/at all/ on this subject. I don't know If it's feasible to adjust for enbies this late into development. There's so many flavours. Nonbinary isn't just a third gender. No matter what Larian chooses, it will skip over people.

Unlike trans people, there's really no in universe explanation. I'd rather have no enby Tav over a poorly done last minute fix... but that's just me. I don't know If D&D has a race with no sexual dimorphism. But, If there was, that would be a good baby step in the right direction. Get the concept Into people's minds. Maybe it would be more enjoyable for people who aren't LGBT+, too.

In the current political climate of gaming, I think that's something we could both ask for and have a result that wouldn't look like "pandering". Unfortunately, to many, anything that appeals to a minority is "pandering". So, you have to be clever about it.

Edit: What I also found important on the topic, thinking about it, is to note that not every game needs to have every option.

In Bg3, there is good reason to have more options than usual. In other games or smaller projects, not so much. In the end, we should accept how much a developer thinks is relevant in the frame of their RPG. Consequently, I also think there's not so much a "trend" in gaming as developers being able to be more open on what they want to work on. They also have queer people on their teams. It's rarely straight people pandering to the LGBT as us making content for ourselves. Self expression in work, not just consumption.

I think that freedom is wonderful. We can also reframe the conversation.

The existence of trans people is well established. So, I believe even an extremist who believes it a mental illness would have to aknowledge that in D&D, you can well play mentally ill characters. Nobody has to change their view points, though they can experiment with a character's mind If they so wish. Scrubbing the existence of trans people out of a game with rape and slavery in it seems like going too far. Look, nobody is playing this with the expectation to never be made uncomfortable, ever.

If anything, If we want to help these people curate their game more, I would advocate for limiting who you're hit on by. Paradoxically, that would also be rather "woke". Sex repulsed people exist. Throw everyone a bone equally and all that.

Considering how clumsy the game is in separating platonic from romantic feelings, being able to turn each romance off box by box can really just improve gameplay.

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I personally don’t care one way or the other. My problem is when limited character interaction is inhibited by these mechanics.

If we had a much larger base I wouldn’t care; however, this issue begins to creep into NPC design.

For example, let’s say Shadowheart is actually born male, but present herself as female? Mind you it would be annoying but funny as all get out to me to romance her and find extra parts during the romance scenes (not having a clue beforehand); however, that might not go all too well for a majority of paying customers. Not saying this is going to happen, but it may with others.

It’s the lack of romance options that would aggravate me. I am about as strait/cis as they come and would want a attractive feminine female to “romance” in the game. My wife is about as girly as you get and we have been married 28 years. Unfortunately when you go down the path of one NPC to romance you can’t back up and start another (yet).

Another example of where it goes to far in another game is from the latest Sims 4 patch. Each NPC now has a chance of being the standard strait/bi and now gay/les and asexual. You can’t find this out until you have spent a good amount of time building up friendship/romance status. Funny part is that you can marry an asexual and they will not have woohoo with your toon at all 😂. No kids in that line - time to cheat or adopt. The developers have said that you can’t change this or opt out as that’s how real life is. Last time I looked I play games to get out of real life. Their randomly generated gender identity seems skewed to equally assign each type (not like “real” world). I understand the political and inclusive motivation but there has to be a better way.

I have always been a supporter of player sexual.

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That Sims thing is just foul. Not all asexuals, hell, not even most asexuals are completely sex repulsed.

I'm currently not convinced big titles would risk trans women companions, though. We're more likely to get trans men because they're not as "scary". The TERFS hate them less and so do people who would feel... violently angry encountering a "trap".

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Originally Posted by Silver/
I'm currently not convinced big titles would risk trans women companions, though. We're more likely to get trans men because they're not as "scary". The TERFS hate them less and so do people who would feel... violently angry encountering a "trap".

No, I can't see a game like BG3 doing a trans character full romance of any gender for a while yet, so I don't think that's a slippery slope that anyone needs to be concerned about.

I guess there might be a semi-equivalent to a playersexual approach where a companion could be either cis or trans in the same way as a playersexual character might be gay or straight. Though playersexual characters can be bi or pan, they are not necessarily so just because they'll fancy PCs of different genders in different playthroughs. I think of different playthroughs as different possible worlds or alternative universes, and on this proposal the romantic interest would not be "really" trans or indeed "really" cis, but could be either depending on the world the player created through their choices. But I'm not able to judge whether that would be an appropriate representation of a trans character in an romantic context, as you say that's something that trans people themselves would need to comment on.

And it would no doubt also put up the backs of other players who don't like to think of even alternative universes in which their romantic interest is trans. I think there's zero chance of BG3 going this route, and however much I'm in favour of trans representation in the game I'm not sure I would even advocate for it. The (real) world doesn't feel ready and it's probably more productive in the long run to take those baby steps you mention and, as you say, get the concepts into people's minds before doing anything that would be seen as so central to a game.

Possibly one way that RPGs could start to introduce romances with trans or other TQIA+ characters, though I don't for a moment think BG3 will do even this, is by having non-party NPCs that our characters could meet in the course of their adventure, chat with and possibly chat up and have at least some romantic dialogue with (or no strings attached sex if that's what all parties want!), without this being one of the "main" romantic arcs of the game. I do hope that BG3 will take this approach to add some additional romance options with, e.g. dwarf, halfling and gnome characters or just some different choices than the companions we adventure with if none of those seem right for the character we're RP-ing. They don't need to have a huge amount of content or any big romance scene animation, as imagination can go a long way. But as I've mentioned already in this thread, having at least some in game recognition to hang your head canon on can go a long way!

Originally Posted by Silver/
Nonbinary people do not appear to have been included in this game.
I'm not sure it's enough to constitute non-binary people being in the game, but you can select a gender identity for your main character of "Non-binary/other". It makes no significant difference to the game other than on the few occasions anyone refers to you by your pronouns they use "they/them". Well, there are currently some places where an NPC will still use a gendered term such as "lass" to refer to the character, but I assume these will be removed and are only there because Larian's search for "she/her/he/him" didn't throw up these cases on their first pass at adding an additional gender option!

I'm not sure whether this would be the sort of thing you'd consider a last minute fix that you'd rather do without. It has so little content that it feels as though players could project almost any (though not every) enbie identity onto it. As a cis person, even though it's not much, it's enough to get me thinking about enbie character concepts that probably wouldn't have occurred to me had that option not been there, and I do have an idea for a gender fluid warlock I'm excited to play. But you're of course right that I'm not the most important audience here.

Last edited by The_Red_Queen; 03/01/23 03:24 AM. Reason: Clarification

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Really? That's interesting. I only ever heard about trans Tav being an option now. Gendered terms, or some gendered terms, are alright by some people. Them existing isn't necessarily a problem in theory, but... Yeah, unwise. Better not to have them.

DA:I already had a trans male (barely not companion) character. Pretty well received. I don't think it's going to become something you generally encounter in games for a long while yet. If a big title does make the step though, I'd expect that's how. Still, who knows. Sometimes an Indie game like Dream Daddy becomes a quietly a little mainstream

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Originally Posted by Silver/
DA:I already had a trans male (barely not companion) character. Pretty well received.

Yes, good point. Krem certainly garnered a fanbase and is an example of successfully introducing a trans character into a fantasy RPG. Bioware also have at least a couple of less successful examples of fortunately smaller cameos for (possibly) trans characters in DA:2 and MEA that now spring to mind, but at least they are trying and are willing to learn from their mistakes!

And as you alluded to in your post above, it helps when the companies making games have a diverse and representative staff who can help make sure that LGBT+ characters in their games are portrayed realistically.


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Speaking of Dragon Age: there is a rumour of Maervaris, a trans woman mage from Tevinter, being a companion in the upcomong game. She is introduced in the comics and very popular with the fans.

Last edited by fylimar; 03/01/23 08:11 AM.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Yes, good point. Krem certainly garnered a fanbase and is an example of successfully introducing a trans character into a fantasy RPG. Bioware also have at least a couple of less successful examples of fortunately smaller cameos for (possibly) trans characters in DA:2 and MEA that now spring to mind, but at least they are trying and are willing to learn from their mistakes!

And as you alluded to in your post above, it helps when the companies making games have a diverse and representative staff who can help make sure that LGBT+ characters in their games are portrayed realistically.

I don't recall anyone in DA2 though I'm not noted for my keen observational skills; and with that in mind, even I thought the cameo in Andromeda was extremely clumsily handled. Yikes. They did a much better job with Krem though parts of his dialogue still felt a bit artificial. Nice work by Shouty Shepard with the voice acting, tho'.


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Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Yes, good point. Krem certainly garnered a fanbase and is an example of successfully introducing a trans character into a fantasy RPG. Bioware also have at least a couple of less successful examples of fortunately smaller cameos for (possibly) trans characters in DA:2 and MEA that now spring to mind, but at least they are trying and are willing to learn from their mistakes!

And as you alluded to in your post above, it helps when the companies making games have a diverse and representative staff who can help make sure that LGBT+ characters in their games are portrayed realistically.

I don't recall anyone in DA2 though I'm not noted for my keen observational skills; and with that in mind, even I thought the cameo in Andromeda was extremely clumsily handled. Yikes. They did a much better job with Krem though parts of his dialogue still felt a bit artificial. Nice work by Shouty Shepard with the voice acting, tho'.
In DA2- it's in the Mark of the Assassin dlc, during the party scene in that dukes estate.


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Originally Posted by fylimar
Originally Posted by vometia
Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Bioware also have at least a couple of less successful examples of fortunately smaller cameos for (possibly) trans characters in DA:2 and MEA that now spring to mind, but at least they are trying and are willing to learn from their mistakes!

I don't recall anyone in DA2 though I'm not noted for my keen observational skills; and with that in mind, even I thought the cameo in Andromeda was extremely clumsily handled. Yikes. They did a much better job with Krem though parts of his dialogue still felt a bit artificial. Nice work by Shouty Shepard with the voice acting, tho'.

In DA2- it's in the Mark of the Assassin dlc, during the party scene in that dukes estate.

Yes. It’s been a while since I played DA2 but IIRC you meet them as a brothel worker in Kirkwall and then as a date (paid escort?) to Bann Teagan at the party fylimar mentions. I don’t think we know they’re trans. They could be enbie, intersex, a cis man who is either camp and enjoys cross dressing or puts on either a manner or women’s clothes just to make a living. Or none of the above! I actually find it realistic that we meet individuals in games like this that we don’t know how to label and never know well enough to find out how they’d identify themselves. I felt the interactions with the MEA character and even, I agree, Krem at moments, seemed artificial at least partly because we ended up having conversations about their history and identity that didn’t feel earned.

But the DA2 character was outrageously camp with an acid tongue and though I actually thought they were witty and quite fabulous, there was no doubt they were a stereotype that arguably tipped into caricature. Plus I wasn’t entirely sure whether the writers were expecting me to find their very existence in the context a joke, or the fact Bann Teagan chose them as an escort to a party funny in a horrible, cliched “oh no, it turns out this lovely lady is actually a man!” way, which I found uncomfortable. Being charitable, that probably wasn’t their intention at all, but while I think a character like that should be able to appear in games, I don’t think it can work when they’re the only example of a non-gender conforming individual in a title.

But all this is only tangentially related to the thread topic, so apologies! I guess it’s sort of relevant to discuss what good and bad trans representation looks like, but perhaps only if we squint smile


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Oh yeah, now I remember... ish. It's not even that long since I played Mark of the Assassin, but I guess I'm not noted for my photographic memory either, which is why I'm probably now thinking of the tailor who was Dandelion's acquaintance who lives just outside Novigrad in Witcher 3.

Are we supposed to be staying on topic? Oh yeah. ahem.


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Up until Krem (whom I... didn't like, mostly because of how artificial the inclusion felt like, and how very "look at this here character, we are inclusive, see? SEE?!" the dialogue with Iron Bull felt even back when I played Inquisition for the first - and only, if you don't count an abandoned run a few years later because I simply got bored with the game - time when still being mostly out of touch with the concept (2014)) I think most if not all of such Bioware characters were there mostly for humorous purposes (there was a female-looking elven courtesan both in DA:O and DA2 who had a surprisingly... masculine voice, if memory serves). Was that meant to be inclusive, or were they just genuinely doing it for the heck of it? Either way, it never came off as something other than a bit of - perhaps somewhat crude - but humour, and I never for a moment thought it to be anything more than that. Same with Mizhena - repeating myself here - whom I've read as a "lady raised as a man by coercive parents" and only learned about the intended idea behind the character a few years later.

They could have just as easily written Krem as a tough mercenary lady, though, and the character would have worked just as well if not better (if they meant to address how apparently sexist and restrictive the Tevinter Imperium is, even though just a game ago they've portrayed the magisters as hedonistic and hardly discriminating with the Fenris questline. DA:I was a trainwreck in world-building terms - and a trainwreck in general, honestly...). Jennifer Hale tried to do her best boyish voice, but you could still hear her usual tone through the effort. Wasn't she also voicing Mizhena, now that I am touching that? Beamdog did get Mark Meer on board for Baeloth (who was about as flat a character as a cardboard sheet, but had his moments), that much I do remember.

I do think it's somewhat unfair to compare character creation options with accessibility features - not having some of the former would reasonably alienate fewer people than how many having the latter will let actually play the game in the first place. It's fluff versus functionality and user experience. I may come off as cruel here, but I don't think that the inability to play an alternate identity character while being able to still play the game is equal to not being able to play the game at all. One enables somebody who would otherwise not be able to experience the game in the first place to experience it and is hardly something that will cause an opinion war (I highly doubt that the needs of disabled people are in any way controversial in nature, although seeing how many would rather - again - make them "seen" or "represented" rather than work on making better conditions for them both in real life and in interactive experiences - also raises questions as to the degree of absurdity the world's come to lately) and does not affect the immersion/world-building aspects (unless you argue that something like an alternate colour pallete or larger fonts defy canon in some way...), while the other is a vanity feature which does not ultimately accomplish the supposed idea behind it and causes a lot of inconsistencies with the writing and the interactions (overbearingly presented in the posts above).

Sure, people would go all "it's just a video game/a fantasy setting with magic, chill / how can you draw the line at one point but not that". I guess obnoxious nerds such as myself to whom games a less of a way of escapism and more of a chance to experience interactive fiction in a cohesive, believable setting while playing around with the rules and tools they present (something that RPGs are supposed to try to be, no?) and who have a hard time projecting the more modern (post-modern, even) concepts onto a fantasy setting are gonna be getting the short end of the stick for a while, until a cultural value crisis hits the West or something. Which kinda sucks, because I loathe JRPGs.

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I don't know about other parts of the world, but social progress and visibility in all sorts of issues have been fairly matched in central europe, not counting the UK (where trans people wait for 20+ years to begin assessing state health care...).

Krem could have also been a cis gay man facing homophobia and some people would say "nothing has been lost". I personally don't think it works that way. Everyone has struggles other people don't. Cis, straight people never need an optimal narrative reason to exist in DA.

I'm not sure what you mean about accessability. Is It that you would rather see partially blind people supported and those missing limbs/fingers?

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Originally Posted by Brainer
I do think it's somewhat unfair to compare character creation options with accessibility features - not having some of the former would reasonably alienate fewer people than how many having the latter will let actually play the game in the first place. It's fluff versus functionality and user experience. I may come off as cruel here, but I don't think that the inability to play an alternate identity character while being able to still play the game is equal to not being able to play the game at all. One enables somebody who would otherwise not be able to experience the game in the first place to experience it and is hardly something that will cause an opinion war (I highly doubt that the needs of disabled people are in any way controversial in nature, although seeing how many would rather - again - make them "seen" or "represented" rather than work on making better conditions for them both in real life and in interactive experiences - also raises questions as to the degree of absurdity the world's come to lately) and does not affect the immersion/world-building aspects (unless you argue that something like an alternate colour pallete or larger fonts defy canon in some way...), while the other is a vanity feature which does not ultimately accomplish the supposed idea behind it and causes a lot of inconsistencies with the writing and the interactions (overbearingly presented in the posts above).

You might be surprised; this sort of thing can be quite significant to people trying to figure themselves out and can have a big impact on them and get through where other things have failed. I know of several gamers who've "found themselves" thanks to the freedom of roleplaying and others who've found that the other perspectives it offers are quite enlightening. I suppose I view it the same way as I do with e.g. save-scumming or story-mode difficulty, which is as long as people are given the choice, I don't really see the problem. I mean as compared with games which have required a mandatory online component to progress, for example: if people want to do that then fine, but the obligation to do so is a different matter.

I know that some people often argue that it uses up development effort that would be better spent on something they would prefer it was spent on, which apart from being a rather divisive argument given that everyone could say the same thing about their own preferred area (in my case it's a landscape I can aimlessly explore as the mood takes me; but it's not entirely reasonable of me to expect a game like BG3 to prioritise that as a feature!) I think it's also specious; especially for a game whose development timeframe has always been "it'll be ready when it's ready".


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I found a lot of the sexual politics in Inquisition really took me out of the world because of how anachronistic they were. People will say that it's just fantasy, as though that can be used to explain away any kind of inconsistency, but when you're dealing with a low-fantasy European medieval setting, and add trans characters, or gay characters, you have to make an effort to incorporate those concepts into the setting or else the verisimilitude is questioned. There are plenty of gay people throughout history but that didn't change the dynamics of politics, nor does it change the realities of property rights in a highly feudal world. Just saying that gay marriage is considered normal by the fantasy catholic church isn't enough for a society that spends most of it's time and energy determining who owns what and has the best claim to this or that parcel of land. I kept thinking that during Dorian's subplot with his father, Byzantium was more permissive than Western Europe, but people still were expected to marry, and if your first-born and only son refused to, that is an issue with ramifications beyond...whatever it was Dorian's father was upset about. Not to mention how disruptive to a peasant community it could be for land to be owned by people with no generation coming up to take care of them, or stop whatever squabble over the land will inevitably come.

The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. For some fantasy is just a way of making allegory for their world, but I like going to a place that operates with different assumptions than my own.

I think that might be how I see the Forgotten Realms too, but because it's such a hodge-podge of settings, and genres, to a much lesser degree. Now if we're going extraplanar, that's another matter.

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Originally Posted by Sozz
I found a lot of the sexual politics in Inquisition really took me out of the world because of how anachronistic they were. People will say that it's just fantasy, as though that can be used to explain away any kind of inconsistency, but when you're dealing with a low-fantasy European medieval setting, and add trans characters, or gay characters, you have to make an effort to incorporate those concepts into the setting or else the verisimilitude is questioned. The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there. For some fantasy is just a way of making allegory for their world, but I like going to a place that operates with different assumptions than my own. I think that might be how I see the Forgotten Realms too, but because it's such a hodge-podge of settings, and genres, to a much lesser degree. Now if we're going extraplanar, that's another matter.

Hmm. I do agree that because many fantasy settings are inspired by real historical societies that when we see them we will naturally make a number of assumptions about their social norms and mores. But that doesn't mean to say we're right to do so, or the creators of those settings should feel constrained in all ways to reflect those historical societies. I'd suggest that, until the creators actually deal with a subject like how that society treats gender, homosexuality, etc, we don't actually know anything about it.

Sure, if we then find out and it doesn't align with our expectations that may be jarring, but that doesn't mean to say that it's bad. I think we could see these instances of culture shock as much as a reason for us to question our assumptions and prejudices as for writers to change their story. Of course, if it's jarring because it's done badly that's a different thing, but while I'd always prefer stories to be written well than badly, I don't think every badly written story shouldn't be told at all, and slightly dodgy plotting, conversation jumps and oversharing in cRPGs is hardly limited to gay or trans characters.

As to whether a pseudo-mediaeval European fantasy setting like Faerun should ideally stick closer to the social norms of the times and places it was based on, I'm afraid that gets a "hell no" from me! As a woman who enjoys playing female characters in RPGs, my enjoyment would be totally scuppered if my character had to deal with the sorts of limitations and sexist behaviour that would entail. I'm not saying every good RPG needs to enable me to play a woman, or even a man other than one specific character (eg The Witcher), but thank goodness they're not all like that, and specifically that the Forgotten Realms aren't. And given the sexual politics of Faerun are already so different from mediaeval Europe in that sense, I see no reason why they shouldn't either be, or evolve to be, different in their treatment of different gender identities and sexuality too.

I could also try to argue that, as a setting designed specifically in order to allow people to roleplay and tell their own stories, the Forgotten Realms has more obligation to its audience, and allowing them to participate and create the adventures they want, than it does to historical reality, but I think I've gone on long enough!


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Oh, definitely. You can take a lot of abstract concepts, like modern BDSM, proceed to spoonfeed it to every known entity in the game and end up with a jarirng result. Why do they know that? Why do they phrase it like that?

If you're building a setting from the ground up (DA), they should be able to find an explanation or five. With Larian, the writing essentially decrees all trans Tavs pass and enby Tav is perfectably clockable. Well, okay. If that's the worst Bg3 is up to, I can live with it, though. Any Tav you're not playing doesn't exist in Bg3. All things considered, maybe any Tav won't come to "officially" exist, only origin characters 🥲

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What is a thing, though, is that not every "medieval" type of society has historically been homophobic or believed in only two types of gender expressions. Their existence is not default to humanity. To christianity, perhaps, but pagan societies tended to be relatively open. DA's problems aren't Bg's problems when it comes values, inheritance, etc.

If DA was not so Christian, Dorian raising another child someone of his bloodline had wouldn't be so problematic... nor would having a child without direct sex (and marriage). Even a relationship next to that marriage.

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Those are all great ways of explaining how it works. My point isn't that it couldn't work, it's that if you add them to the world, you need to address how it works or it becomes a big question for me how it does. I don't think people thought about or were conscious of the concepts of gender the same way we are today, I think history itself is fairly recent, at least to the common man. That's the one differences between science-fiction and fantasy to me, fantasy extrapolates how societies would deal with modern issues with old fashioned world views, while science-fiction tries to extrapolate what future issues will change a society's assumptions and world views. Case in point we meet the Empress of Orlais whose reign is under threat and whose legitimacy is in question, an heir, or a political marriage could really have helped with that situation, I don't remember if this is ever addressed in the game. I don't remember much about Inquisition anymore actually, though I remember the Orlais story being the weakest in a game that was really underwhelming me. That kind of strained logic abound. It's funny you mention that about Dorian, Silver/, because of how established adoption is in Roman society, I'm still not sure what was going on with that plot.

I don't consider the setting of Faerun to be tailored to fit every roleplayer, if it were it would have skills and take social interactions more seriously. It's a heroic adventure game, and heroes can be anyone, if it dealt more with the fantasy societies in a realistic way than I would expect these issues to have satisfying answers. But like I mentioned, because the Forgotten Realms is such a pastiche of tones, genres, cultures and time periods, I don't sweat it too much. But I do think there was a antique mindset in the setting that has become more and more modern with mixed results, for me at least.

Joined: Aug 2020
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Originally Posted by Sozz
It's funny you mention that about Dorian, Silver/, because of how established adoption is in Roman society, I'm still not sure what was going on with that plot.

Originally Posted by Silver/
If DA was not so Christian, Dorian raising another child someone of his bloodline had wouldn't be so problematic... nor would having a child without direct sex (and marriage). Even a relationship next to that marriage.

The crux of Dorian's plot isn't just about continuing the family lineage in the sense of inheritence and what have you, and it's not really a religious issue either. It's more about continuing to provide a linneage of powerful mages. Tevinter Magisters are expected to marry and have children in part to keep up a pedigree of powerful mages. Adopting the unwanted child of some cousin wouldn't really help with continuing the magical bloodline. It would effectively mean Dorian is putting an end to generations of breeding partially aimed at producing a superior magical bloodline.

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