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[Linked Image from blogger.googleusercontent.com]

Last edited by GM4Him; 04/01/23 04:04 AM.
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So, I think what Aurora42 is referring to is this:

[Linked Image from blogger.googleusercontent.com]

So, if this succubus were to be updated with modern graphics she would be very naughty looking.

However, let me point out that she is still not naked. She has something akin to a bikini which though revealing and it would make me uncomfortable, it is not totally naked nor does it still mean that if you updated the graphics she would have to be naked nor does it mean that sex needs to suddenly be displayed on screen with her if you should choose to be seduced by her. An updated version of her would likely look something like this:

[Linked Image from blogger.googleusercontent.com]

Again, not necessarily naked nor having to be explicit sex with her just because of upgrades graphics.

Last edited by GM4Him; 04/01/23 04:22 AM.
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Why do I feel like we're just looking up dirty words in the dictionary. What point is being made here.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Swagnar
If you don't like a role-playing game's writing, why are you even playing it? You're clearly in the wrong genre.
I think it should be clear by now why I have an interest in a game carrying a Baldur's Gate IP. And if game had no issues with the game, I wouldn't be hanging around the forums, would I.
I had gotten the impression from conversation that you weren't very familiar with the IP, but it's a moot point. The game is more than 20 years old at this point. It can legally by alcohol in the US. Anyone who played BG3 when they were young is mature enough to deal with an M rated game, and people who aren't old enough probably aren't going back and playing the originals, as they have mechanics that don't jive with modern sensibilities in gameplay.

It is also not necessary that a sequel to a game maintain it's ratings. Jak & Daxter is a perfect example of a game that decided that its sequels be more mature than the original, and became a more compelling series for it. You can call it edgy, but it's far more memorable to a lot of people who the story had a big impact on growing up that if the game had gone in a kiddie direction like the original it couldn't have done.

I think this is where I'm just going to dip out of the argument, because there really is no point in continuing. The game is quite close to being done, and I doubt Larian is going to remove an entire section of content because it makes some people feel "icky". The majority of players in any RPG usually pick the "good path" over the "evil path" simply because doing the evil path makes them feel bad, but that's no reason to remove the choice from the game, and would cheapen the experience if you were forced on rails to play the game one way. Most players likewise will likely pick their favorite companion and enjoy the sex scenes that come with them.

Goodnight.

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yea, but you are starting to understand my point. the advances in tech goes across the line... as for the BG1 sprite, its hard to see what Its wearing, if id guess its some kind of loin cloth, ie just a strap of flapping cloth between front legs, rear could or couldent be entirly open, but lets leave that to the imagination, BG1 had its fair share of scantily dressed or near nude sprites... so what im trying to make everyone understand, Larian have no way tried to make anything more "cartoon porn" all they done is evolving and aplying grafics equally across the board...

Then we have the demon/devil/balroq sprite, wich looks entiry nude to me... but again, wich i said before, its hardto eactly tell, but imagine a balroq in all its nude glory with modern grafics ?... thats alot of pixel penis, just saying !

PS, i should add this, and stress, i dont value things one way or anouther, most of all as some also stated in this thread, If it makes sense alow it to be as it should, even if its disturbing, and in some cases it fits with lore and plot... That said, in one of the dream sequences with the devil, i realy liked the well dressed elegant evil, i think that is just as sexy as anything else, in some cases even more... im just against people trying to censor my DnD world, i want the evil and disturbing as i want the good and elegant...

Last edited by Aurora42; 04/01/23 09:53 AM.
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The problem with sex in BG3 is that it was added for the purpose of adding sex to BG3. It has no narrative connection, no cathartic relationship to any of the plot, and is nothing more than digital masturbation. It's a reward for choosing a dialogue path.

One of the oldest axioms in art is "if it doesn't add anything, take it out."

Last edited by pachanj; 04/01/23 05:55 AM.
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Originally Posted by pachanj
The problem with sex in BG3 is that it was added for the purpose of adding sex to BG3. It has no narrative connection, no cathartic relationship to any of the plot, and is nothing more than digital masturbation. It's a reward for choosing a dialogue path.

One of the oldest axioms in art is "if it doesn't add anything, take it out."
You probably haven't played the game enough then. Minthara, Gale and Astarion sex scenes are directly linked with the plot.

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Originally Posted by Swagnar
The game is more than 20 years old at this point. It can legally by alcohol in the US. Anyone who played BG3 when they were young is mature enough to deal with an M rated game, and people who aren't old enough probably aren't going back and playing the originals, as they have mechanics that don't jive with modern sensibilities in gameplay.
I am thinking about your argument, but that’s what Dragon Ages, or Pillars of Eternity attempted - more mature universes, for more mature audience, new IPs. In case of BG3, I just don’t see what the benefit is of limiting its audience. From the cynical point of view, what you say makes sense - older audience is unlikely to mind 18+ and all the cursing, boobs and poop could attract teenagers to what isn’t exactly “cool” genre to play. Still, the end result I suspect will be a game much less timeless as the originals. The mix of characters like Minsc and Boo, talking squirrels, looney toones push and R rated content will be very grotesque.

Edit. Meh, to end with a I would like to share a video essay, from which I stile James Gunn’s quote couple pages earlier. It revolves around R rated superhero films, which I think is the best parallel to what is happening to BG.




Last edited by Wormerine; 04/01/23 10:34 AM.
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Well... lol trying to apease everyone, and giving all what they want, in many cases end up with no one getting anything, or in some cases they have to compromise their original concept just to be able to fit everything else... i doubt anyone of us have managed to miss what happened to cyber punk, and why you stick to your roots and your core, if the story is good, then most will swallow things they generally dont like...

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Originally Posted by Aurora42
yea, but you are starting to understand my point. the advances in tech goes across the line... as for the BG1 sprite, its hard to see what Its wearing, if id guess its some kind of loin cloth, ie just a strap of flapping cloth between front legs, rear could or couldent be entirly open, but lets leave that to the imagination, BG1 had its fair share of scantily dressed or near nude sprites... so what im trying to make everyone understand, Larian have no way tried to make anything more "cartoon porn" all they done is evolving and aplying grafics equally across the board...

Then we have the demon/devil/balroq sprite, wich looks entiry nude to me... but again, wich i said before, its hardto eactly tell, but imagine a balroq in all its nude glory with modern grafics ?... thats alot of pixel penis, just saying !

PS, i should add this, and stress, i dont value things one way or anouther, most of all as some also stated in this thread, If it makes sense alow it to be as it should, even if its disturbing, and in some cases it fits with lore and plot... That said, in one of the dream sequences with the devil, i realy liked the well dressed elegant evil, i think that is just as sexy as anything else, in some cases even more... im just against people trying to censor my DnD world, i want the evil and disturbing as i want the good and elegant...

I get what you're trying to say, but my point is that I do not agree with your point. Just because graphics advance, that is no excuse to suddenly portray things more explicitly.

Take the balor, since we have brought it into this. Did the balrog in LOTR have huge badongadongas? No. But he looked pretty dang real. Monsters like him don't need to be portrayed with genitals even if they are totally nude by nature. Chewbacca the Wookiee was technically naked too, right? Did we need to see his junk? No.

And you're making quite the leap with the succubus too. You're guessing what she's wearing and making assumptions. Maybe she IS wearing a thong, but maybe she isn't. Regardless, that makes no difference. Increase the graphics quality and she's still not naked. She at least has some clothing which makes a HUGE difference for some of BGs audience - myself included. I mean, I don't want to see scantily dressed pixel people period anyway, but I'll put up with them and push through the scene if I have to, but strip them totally naked, and that's a whole different matter.

BUT... Regardless of nudity, this statement is just not true: "Larian have no way tried to make anything more "cartoon porn" all they done is evolving and aplying grafics equally across the board...". The point some of us are trying to make here is that you are taking a big leap here. Increasing graphics in no way suddenly means Larian has to, by default, show characters having sex. It would have actually been easier if they had not depicted those sex scenes at all BECAUSE of the upgrade in graphics.

Back in the BG1 days, it would have been easier to depict people having sex because it was so pixely. Today, they are trying to make everything so realistic and close up that when it glitches even a little it's weird and creepy looking. Even animated kisses look weird.

So upgraded graphics does not suddenly equal "well, guess we gotta show Minthara going down on the MC. We have no choice. Updated graphics demand it.". It is definitely Larian trying to add explicit sex, cartoon porn, deliberately to the game to try to increase sales. It's has nothing to do with applying updated graphics across the board.

Last edited by GM4Him; 04/01/23 01:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by GM4Him
-snip-
I don't understand your point. Yes, better graphics doesn't always implies being more explicit, but sometimes it does. Look at Doom, GTA or Metal Gear, they evolved from their primitive origins and added explicit violence or nudity. Those franchises have never been more popular. Sometimes you have to accept that the world isn't centered around you.

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actually its probably not for the purpose of increasing sales, its mostly because this was the sensibility of the game they wanted to make. its not like all adult games sell better than non adult games. Its just a case of this creator wanted to create this type of experience.

20 years ago was a different society, games had a different audience, and different expectations and people had a different culture. Its interesting because many of the things you mention show that before they unrealistically ignore things to match the cultural sensibilities. There is no realistic reason you don't see the balrogs sex organs, its just that society would feel uncomfortable. Previously they might tell the same stories, but obscure parts of it, just to match the culture. That hasn't changed, the culture has simply changed.


That said, Instead of trying to make a claim about what is artistic, realistic, or moral. The best argument imo would be allowing people to set the game rating, so that users can avoid these racy things if they prefer. Its valid to acknowledge different players have different levels of what they want in entertainment.

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Originally Posted by snowram
Originally Posted by GM4Him
-snip-
I don't understand your point. Yes, better graphics doesn't always implies being more explicit, but sometimes it does. Look at Doom, GTA or Metal Gear, they evolved from their primitive origins and added explicit violence or nudity. Those franchises have never been more popular. Sometimes you have to accept that the world isn't centered around you.

Wow. I in no way think the world evolves around me. Where did you get that from anything I've said?

Sigh.

Ok. Here's my point: The bottom line of all this back and forth is that there are a lot of people who just want porn displayed in the game, and there are a lot of people who don't. All the arguments given are just excuses. Nothing more and nothing less. Better graphics do not in any way dictate that a game needs porn. People are only using updated graphics as an excuse because they just plain want it.

But, adding porn does isolate the audience because now all those who don't like it may not buy the game. Period.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
But, adding porn does isolate the audience because now all those who don't like it may not buy the game. Period.
Taking into account your own arguments that would mean that if they did not include it people who want it would be isolated and might not buy the game. It's a loose-loose scenario you painted here.

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As someone who's played lots of video games they shouldn't have as a kid:

1) I always skipped the sex scenes. Look, teenagers know sex exist. We were not all a fan of it, but it doesn't give them psychic damage.

2) my parents have never forbidden me a game on the basis of optional sex scenes... and I don't know of any other who did, either. This is not what parents worry about.

3) as far as I can tell, the intended excluded audience is 7-13 year olds and 14-16 year olds respecting content ratings (a rare breed indeed).

There is no chance in hell Bg3 will lose profit on basis of having sex scenes. Let's be real here.

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Originally Posted by Vitani
Originally Posted by GM4Him
But, adding porn does isolate the audience because now all those who don't like it may not buy the game. Period.
Taking into account your own arguments that would mean that if they did not include it people who want it would be isolated and might not buy the game. It's a loose-loose scenario you painted here.

If people don't buy the game because there is no explicit sex scenes, then the game must suck. A well written, well designed game does not need sex to sell it.

So it is not lose lose unless the game is literally relying on sex to sell, in which case, the game is crap and won't survive. Why? Because people who want porn in a game will still likely buy a good RPG that doesn't have sex, but people who don't like porn and don't want it in their games will struggle internally about buying a game with porn in it even if the game is good.

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Originally Posted by GM4Him
[quote=Vitani][quote=GM4Him]

So it is not lose lose unless the game is literally relying on sex to sell, in which case, the game is crap and won't survive. Why? Because people who want porn in a game will still likely buy a good RPG that doesn't have sex, but people who don't like porn and don't want it in their games will struggle internally about buying a game with porn in it even if the game is good.

I know you do not demand its removal, and your personal position is really respectful and compromising to others, but I would still like to criticize our last points.

What you described is an extremely good recipe for cultural stagnation, when companies are too afraid of scaring customers so they always play it safe. But yes, I, for example, would buy BG3 without gore and nudity, as I bought POE 1,2 Tyranny, DOS games. But there is still a chance to increase sales not because of "porn" as you name it or gore, but because there are people who probably will be appealed by the game that does not treat them as sensitive kids, who start feeling discomfort when seeing gore or nudity. There are also people who would want to see a more believable game that does not hide its disturbing edges. I heard people saying that all of this does not contribute to the story or world, but it does, and it is done in Game of Thrones or Witcher for a reason.

Last edited by Garold_izAravii; 04/01/23 04:54 PM.
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They don't show sex to sell the game, although sex does sell, as does violence.

They show it because it's there, and you can choose not to partake in it, like you can avoid killing everyone in your path, but the option is there.

The sex scenes do not force you into anything, you don't have to romance anyone, you don't have to change your favorite role play style.

Some characters will be more weird than others.

Naming it cartoon porn is your own interpretation of it.

Porn is fully about sex, a scene in the game does not constitute the whole game, nor does the game revolve around it.

Last edited by Krom; 04/01/23 05:08 PM.
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Originally Posted by snowram
Originally Posted by GM4Him
-snip-
Yes, better graphics doesn't always implies being more explicit, but sometimes it does. Look at Doom, GTA or Metal Gear, they evolved from their primitive origins and added explicit violence or nudity.
I can't speak for Metal Gear but Doom and GTA both had mature content in them. Aurora's claim is that visual fidelity, not game's content, dictates age rating, which is just factually not true.


Originally Posted by Krom
Naming it cartoon porn is your own interpretation of it.

Porn is fully about sex, a scene in the game does not constitute the whole game, nor does the game revolve around it.
I don't think anyone claims that entirety of Baldur's Gate3 is porn, but that as part of it romances it displays pornographic cutscenes. I do think it is a fair assesment (though I am purely judging it on the basis on Minthara scene, having seen others). Love scenes can be also have explicit, but the difference would be the focus of the content. If the cutscene focuses on characters, rather then act itself it is a love scene. BG3 sex cutscene does focus on the act, making it pornography.

A more extreme example would be Yakuza games and their very soft-pornographic videos. It doesn't make Yakuza games as a whole a pornography, but they have it in them.

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Originally Posted by Krom
They don't show sex to sell the game, although sex does sell, as does violence.

They show it because it's there, and you can choose not to partake in it, like you can avoid killing everyone in your path, but the option is there.

The sex scenes do not force you into anything, you don't have to romance anyone, you don't have to change your favorite role play style.

Some characters will be more weird than others.

Naming it cartoon porn is your own interpretation of it.

Porn is fully about sex, a scene in the game does not constitute the whole game, nor does the game revolve around it.

Part of the issue with these threads is that they are long, and people only get parts of the whole Convo. I've said before, if they keep the sex scenes as optional, basically nothing more in your face that you can't avoid, I'm not gonna quit playing the game. I can avoid the sex scenes and finish BG3. Granted, I WISH I could have a romance in the game without necessarily explicit sex scenes, but...

My fear is that they will make the graphic sex unavoidable at some point. Then I won't be able to finish the game.

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