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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
I was really surprised Wolf included VtM:Bloodlines 2 ... one of three games im awaiting maybe even more eager than BG-3 release. laugh
Even more when he said that release in 2023 is, quotation "not impossible" ...

I was searching for any new information about the game, but as it seems Wolf were quoting aproximately month old article, where was nothing more than exactly this two words.
Shame ... frown


Cancelled...cough...
Well or ruined actually n persons was fired. Cancelled or ruined.

EDIT. All were not fired. They had fixed terms contracts. New contract was not agreed upon at least to some source saying so whatever.

Cancelled is realistic theory though personally I believe it will at least release but have no clue when.
Why realistic? They considered cancellation at one point.

I hope VtM:Bloodlines 2 will be very good game and released, but I have my doubts.

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Originally Posted by Terminator2020
I agree have not played Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines 1 but there are so many fans I know it was very good game even excellent depending on taste. Which is odd considering I have seen Tv series like True Blood, The Vampire Diaries, The Strain that are all more or less about Vampires. Well and movies like Fright Night I like them both the old one from 80ies and the more modern version and I have seen all Underworld movies. Of course many other good movies and Tv series about Vampires exist, but I wanted to mention at least something.

My biggest fear is that they are going to do with Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines 2 what they did with Lord of the Rings TV series completely ruining it then it would not even be a 7/10 game. Perhaps I am being paranoid?
I don't keep Bloodlines in such high regard as some, though I do think it is a seminal RPGs that needs to be played, if one has interesting in RPGs. The vampire theme isn't to my taste, combat and overall gameplay feel is horrible, but it is probably the only RPG I can think of that handles varied races well. Some vampire clans offer a very unique playstyle, fulfilling their roleplaying concept, which is a unique achievement considering most RPGs (including BG3) tend to sand off the interesting bits for the simplicity sake.

I think it is very warranted to be sceptical about the sequel - it will be tricky to nail it for the second time. Bloodlines greatness is content driven, rather then mechanical, so devs need to come up with another batch of great content, rather then just adapting what B:M did. B:M was also build on Troika's unreasonable ambitition, and it is something that perhaps shouldn't be directly replicated. B:M is after all a cult classic - meaning I didn't sell well, and without hard work of the community it still wouldn't as playable as it is now. Troika's games came at a cost, and that cost was studio shutting down. I don't think that's a path that anyone wants to emulate.

Personally, what we have seen of M:B2 looked awful to me, so the reboot under different studio is only a positive thing in my eyes. Hopefully, Paradox CEO's are not lying to appease shareholders, and we will hear something about the game soon. It is odd they didn't even reveal who is working on the game now, but I also understand if they want to wait until they can show off more before revealing anything.

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Modded Skyrim VR is really the best RPG experience you can get in gaming right now, IMO. Nothing else compares. Exceptions obviously for when you really don't want to be in VR, and just want to chill and lay back with snacks and play a slower paced cRPG.

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Originally Posted by cronuss
Modded Skyrim VR is really the best RPG experience you can get in gaming right now, IMO. Nothing else compares. Exceptions obviously for when you really don't want to be in VR, and just want to chill and lay back with snacks and play a slower paced cRPG.
Question of taste. I really tried and bought Oblivion (Elder Scrolls IV) and Skyrim (Elder Scrolls V the later one when got 10 euro discount price). Even with mod that made all women nude it was not good enough.

I have never got into liking graphics. Well and then top of that open world sandbox is not for me at least not Elder Scrolls. It is nice Skyrim supports VR and such an old game as Skyrim has to begin with low system requirements though VR might increase system requirements.

It is apples vs oranges subjective taste. I understand that for you it is the best game, but for me it is not even good game enough said.

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This is probably not a great solution, but I have always modded my elder scrolls games to within an inch of their lives, and Skyrim was no different. I love some of the quests that people have made, ones that expand the main quest choices, and ones that retexture.

That said, Skyrim is definitely not a perfect game, the story is surprisingly thin on the ground, and for such an open world game you really don't have that many options for how to play through the major quest lines, so if sandbox style rpgs aren't your thing then I wouldn't bother.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
it will be tricky to nail it for the second time.
Agreed ...

Luckily they dont really need to. smile
Its the same as with Baldur's Gate III. ... yes, there will ALLWAYS (and i mean it litteraly) be someone claiming that this game is not worthy sucessor of that legacy.

The question is: Since its impossible ... was it even a goal?
Or would studio and producers be perfectly fine with good game, that will have good sales, and will entertain lots of fans of original game(s)? smile

I think its certainly possible ... when i look at other series ...


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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
The question is: Since its impossible ... was it even a goal?
Or would studio and producers be perfectly fine with good game, that will have good sales, and will entertain lots of fans of original game(s)? smile

I think its certainly possible ... when i look at other series ...


I don't want a perfect game, the first bloodlines was a mess, but it had a solid story with moderately interesting characters, and the ability to make character-driven choices for gameplay that gave me different options for completing certain quests, and a small selection of ending options that made me feel like I had actually made some choices (even though there was really only 2 choices that mattered).

I just want that again.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Luckily they dont really need to. smile
Its the same as with Baldur's Gate III. ... yes, there will ALLWAYS (and i mean it litteraly) be someone claiming that this game is not worthy sucessor of that legacy.

The question is: Since its impossible ... was it even a goal?
But if you decide it is impossible to do a sequel and won’t even attempt it, why are you using the IP beyond exploiting the fan base and the IP? The only reason Bloodlines2 has my attention is because Bloodlines1. As such I expect for the game to live up to the expectation at least to some extend (like for example modern Deus Exs aren’t immersive sims I wish they were, but still clearly riff on DE1).

If one isn’t part of the exploitation one doesn’t care (I for one didn’t mind for Arcane having to do Prey reboot in name only, as I had no idea Prey1 existed, but at the same time game could have been called anything else), but I also don’t think it is right to let it slide. I think it would be better for everyone, if publishers stopped abusing IPs. But they won’t, it gives them too much power.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
[quote=Wormerine
Its the same as with Baldur's Gate III. ... yes, there will ALLWAYS (and i mean it litteraly) be someone claiming that this game is not worthy sucessor of that legacy.
Well I think I can answer this I am not the oldest one forums I know there are 50+ people and perhaps much older then that on forums. That said I have played pen and paper Dungeon Dragons even PRE 18 year age and I have played Dungeons Dragon a really long time before Dungeons Dragons 5 was released. Well not playing all the time many years breaks and sometimes playing through computer games.

I even joined a very long time ago a RETRO group of 2ND edition aka Advanced Dungeons Dragons and played a short campaign pen and paper.
I have played Dnd 3.0 and Dnd 3.5. I have not played DND 4 or Pathfinder except in computer games. I have played DnD 5.0 in pen and paper or remotely in COVID 19 time and computer games. Well and I have played Baldurs Gate 1 and 2 both of them in LAN multiplayer play a long time ago with my brother.

First of hmm story? Eh I really think that can not be judged until full release. BG3 has a promising start.

I think what many players that are old school miss is traditional graphics and to control characters like in Solasta, Pathfinder games, Pillars of Eternity those styles of game. It is not only that some players find the controlling the game BG3 not the best system out there (I belong to them)
while ok for me I would not say it is BG3 strongest side, but it works and has multiplayer cooperative support to maximum 4 players or you can play it solo which is very good.

In early versions of ALPHA BG3 was very far from real DnD 5 rules.That said BG3 has gradually become more close to DnD 5 today so even if currently some subclasses and Cleric domains, spells and feats from Players Handbook are missing it does generally feel enough DnD 5 for me and how close it is to real DND 5 rules and what is available in content we will not know before full release of the game.

What BG3 shine in and beats those other games is in graphics, cinematic visions... and sound is very good and music.

Now DND 5.0 system for BG3? DND 5.0 is enough good I think. There are of course some hardcore fan of old games that would like 2ND Advanced Dungeons Dragons rules like in BG1 and BG2. I understand that wish some might have, but honestly I think DND 5.0 is good enough DND system.

By the wast majority though including me Baldurs Gate 3 will be a very good game and perhaps even excellent.

For those who like more of traditional party controlling Dungeons Dragons that are at least fairly modern games that remind of BG1 and BG2 I suggest try Pathfinder games, Solasta and Pillars of Eternity. Pillars of Eternity 1 an 2 is not Dungeons Dragons, but close enough in my book so it reminds of BG1 and BG2. Pathfinder system has its roots and developed from DND 3.5 so personally I classify Pathfinder as a branch of Dungeons Dragons.

Of all those games only BG3 is Forgotten Realms Dungeons World and BG1 and BG2 were Forgotten Realms World. Solasta is DND 5.0 , but it is limited license and the world is not Forgotten Realms in Solasta.

Well and you can not judge BG3 before full release of the game which is likely in August 2023 that is the current release date plan.
I also like modern games that do not remind of BG1 an BG2, but this post is long enough.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Luckily they dont really need to. smile
Its the same as with Baldur's Gate III. ... yes, there will ALLWAYS (and i mean it litteraly) be someone claiming that this game is not worthy sucessor of that legacy.

The question is: Since its impossible ... was it even a goal?
But if you decide it is impossible to do a sequel and won’t even attempt it, why are you using the IP
I didnt mean its impossible to do "a sequel" ...
That IS certainly possible as it was countless times prooved in game industry.

What i said its imposisble to do "worthy sucessor of the legacy" for EVERYONE.
What i meaned (even tho maybe i didnt say it properly) is that you can never create the same game second time ... you still can create great game from same setting tho, just as good as the first one, hells ... it may in some ways be even better than original one, but it will be different, and that is what some people will be upset about ... THAT is inevidable.

Its like evolution ...
It have to try new things, otherwise it stagnate and disappear ... sometimes it takes wrong turn, and sooner or later it extinct anyway ... sometimes it takes right turn, and it will direct course for next few generations ...

To me ...
(feel free to replace "Bloodlines 2" with "Baldur's Gate III" ... and "Bloodlines" with "Baldur's Gate I & II.")
People who are expecting Bloodlines 2 to be just like Bloodlines with different story, are destined to be disapointed ... bcs there will allways be *something* (and it will differ for each player) that will feel different than Bloodlines and that *something* will change things for them ...
Its like ... i dunno ...
> play Warcraft III., play World of Warcraft, or watching Warcraft movie ...
> play Bloodlines, play Bloodhunt, and play Shadows of New York ...
> play Metal Gear Solid, play MGR: Revengeance, and play MGS:V Phantom Pain ...
> play Fallout, play Fallout: New Vegas, and play Fallout 76 ...
Every single time entirely different experience, all that ties them together is that each series come from same universe. smile
Some of those games aged like vine ... and their sequels were really great games, even tho they didnt provide "the same experience" ... since *THAT* is impossible to achieve.
Other of those games aged like milk ... and that is okey, evolution have to sometimes take wrong turn, in order to find out it was wrong turn. smile

From all games i ever played ...
Sequel that felt closest to its Predecessor ... was SW:KotOR II.
It was created by same team, that started working on it litteraly just as they finished first game ... and still, the combat felt different, there was much more options, crafting and upgrading system for gear was updated, influence over your companions was added, it looked much better (duh) ...
So many differences. smile
Most of them was good ... so i didnt mind them at all, but they were without question there ... funily enough, im kinda unable to enjoy KotOR as much since i played II., bcs i miss all those improvements. laugh

//Edit: (i didnt mean to post it yet. laugh )
Originally Posted by Wormerine
The only reason Bloodlines2 has my attention is because Bloodlines1.
Simmilar here ...
Bloodlines was my first step into World of Darkness ... as i bet it was for many other people. smile

But quite honestly the more i played it (i have most likely 100+ playthroughs done, all clans, both genders, multiple unofficial dlcs) and more importantly the more i learned about the world ... the more i see how much wasted potential was there. frown

So i dont really want Bloodlines 2 to be another Bloodlines ...
I hope there for good evolution, as it was between Witcher and Witcher III. (i didnt play killer of kings) :3

Originally Posted by Wormerine
As such I expect for the game to live up to the expectation at least to some extend
That is the trick isnt it? smile "to some extend" ...
Problem is that everyone will have that extended differently. smile

Originally Posted by Wormerine
(like for example modern Deus Exs aren’t immersive sims I wish they were, but still clearly riff on DE1).
I never played Deus Ex. frown

Originally Posted by Wormerine
I think it would be better for everyone, if publishers stopped abusing IPs.
And i dont think they do ... i mean abusing them ...
Even tho some probably do ... but i really want to believe that most of them dont. laugh

They simply keep building on something that as previously builded ... sometimes its just as good, even tho different ... sometimes its worse ... and sometimes its even better ... but its never, ever, the same. wink

Last edited by RagnarokCzD; 06/01/23 01:19 PM.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
To me ...
(feel free to replace "Bloodlines 2" with "Baldur's Gate III" ... and "Bloodlines" with "Baldur's Gate I & II.")
People who are expecting Bloodlines 2 to be just like Bloodlines with different story, are destined to be disapointed ... bcs there will allways be *something* (and it will differ for each player) that will feel different than Bloodlines and that *something* will change things for them ...
Its like ... i dunno ...
> play Warcraft III., play World of Warcraft, or watching Warcraft movie ...
> play Bloodlines, play Bloodhunt, and play Shadows of New York ...
> play Metal Gear Solid, play MGR: Revengeance, and play MGS:V Phantom Pain ...
> play Fallout, play Fallout: New Vegas, and play Fallout 76 ...
Every single time entirely different experience, all that ties them together is that each series come from same universe. smile
hmmm, you are confusing concepts here. Sequel isn't the same as a spin-off. I will refer to titles I know:
World of Warcraft is a spin-off of Warcraft series, which were RTSs
MGR: Revengeance is a spin-off of MGS games (otherwise I only played MGSV so can't speak for it's relation to previous titles, though I hear fans were disappointment, though I was under impression that it was more due to it being unfinished. That was something that was clear enough to myself, in spite of never playing a MGS game before)
Fallout 76 is a spin-off from Fallout series, and Fallout: New Vegas is stand-alone campaign build using Fallout3 engine.

Similarly, Witcher games build on one another, but Thronebreaker is a spin-off not a numbered entry.

As such, yes, I wish Baldur's Gate3 would position itself as a spin-off rather then numbered entry, as I think it would better communicate what the game is. Similarly, as Avowed is a new title in Eora world, but doesn't position itself as Pillars of Eternity sequel. Speaking of Pillars, there was a post made by its creator Josh Sawyer, in which he mentioned that if they were to create Pillars of Eternity3 they would likely need to rethink a lot of those elements - at which point what is the point of calling it Pillars of Eternity3? All you do is create expectation from the people who liked the originals, and set them up for disappointment. Avowed, on the other hand carries no expectations. It could be really anything, and as long as it is good I will be satisfied. And if it expands the world of Eora in a satisfaying way to me as a fan of Pillars, I will be even happier.

So yeah, if you say you create Bloodlines2 you send a very clear message. There are other World of Darkness games and Masqarade titles, but only Bloodlines2 attaches itself to the legacy of the original. It is a concious choice, which carries expectations.


Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
From all games i ever played ...
Sequel that felt closest to its Predecessor ... was SW:KotOR II.
It was created by same team, that started working on it litteraly just as they finished first game ... and still, the combat felt different, there was much more options, crafting and upgrading system for gear was updated, influence over your companions was added, it looked much better (duh) ...
So many differences. smile
Correction - it was developed by a completely different teams. SW:KOTOR was created by Bioware, while SW:KOTOR2 was a rushed sequel for which they hired Obsidian. (similar situation, as Bethesda Fallout3, and Fallout: New Vegas also made by Obsidian. Or Neverwinter Nights (Bioware) and Neverwinter Nights2 (Obsidian)).

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
hmmm, you are confusing concepts here. Sequel isn't the same as a spin-off.
Using definitions i know ...
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sequel
https://cs.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spin-off
(yes, both links are Czech)

Quote
A sequel or continuation is a narrative, documentary or other literary, filmic, theatrical or musical work that continues the story (or expands it with other elements) of a previously published work.

A spin-off is a radio, television, computer or literary work that has been derived from an already existing work (or several works) and which is particularly focused on a certain aspect of the original work (e.g. a certain theme, character, event, etc.).

(both generated via google translator)
So ... maybe my examples was not the best ...

But i see there no contradiction, its nowhere mentioned that sequel need to follow the same genre as original work ... only that as long as it follows or expand same story, its sequel ... if it only uses universum and tell its own story, its spin-off ... O_o

Originally Posted by Wormerine
Correction
True ...
My bad ... still, its sequel that is closer to its original, from the games i know. smile

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That definition applies more to narrative mediums, while games rely on mechanics. Arguably the latter is more important in gaming - there are well established IPs with little or no narrative continuation, though that of course is IP dependant. That the games you mentioned don’t position themselves as sequels (different titles, not numbered entries) should be a dead giveaway.

https://www.giantbomb.com/spin-off/3015-1100/
https://www.giantbomb.com/sequel/3015-3178/

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Im not changing definition i know and understand ...
Was my message clear enough besides this, or have you any question about that?


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Based on what I have read about Bloodlines 2 I was just expecting it to be terrible. I think that is why Paradox suspended hardsuit labs as devs.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by RagnarokCzD
Luckily they dont really need to. smile
Its the same as with Baldur's Gate III. ... yes, there will ALLWAYS (and i mean it litteraly) be someone claiming that this game is not worthy sucessor of that legacy.

The question is: Since its impossible ... was it even a goal?
But if you decide it is impossible to do a sequel and won’t even attempt it, why are you using the IP beyond exploiting the fan base and the IP? The only reason Bloodlines2 has my attention is because Bloodlines1. As such I expect for the game to live up to the expectation at least to some extend (like for example modern Deus Exs aren’t immersive sims I wish they were, but still clearly riff on DE1).

If one isn’t part of the exploitation one doesn’t care (I for one didn’t mind for Arcane having to do Prey reboot in name only, as I had no idea Prey1 existed, but at the same time game could have been called anything else), but I also don’t think it is right to let it slide. I think it would be better for everyone, if publishers stopped abusing IPs. But they won’t, it gives them too much power.

I guess for the same reason that Baldur's Gate 2 Shadow's of Amn was called Baldur's Gate 2? Couldn't they have just called it Shadow's of Amn, or the Bhaalspawn Legacy/Saga? I mean, the series, until then, had become part of that saga, with some other media, novels and some TT, I believe, adding to it. The only thing Baldur's Gate about 2 was that it had some of the same characters in it, with the same protagonist, if you imported one from the first game, which wasn't required. Other than that, it was just brand recognition, right? I mean, fast forward a bit, and suddenly it's the "Infinity Engine games", and includes IWD 1 and 2 as well. Given that we're pretty sure we're actually going to Baldur's Gate this time around, it already has as much in common with BG 1 as BG 2 did.

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Originally Posted by robertthebard
I guess for the same reason that Baldur's Gate 2 Shadow's of Amn was called Baldur's Gate 2? Couldn't they have just called it Shadow's of Amn, or the Bhaalspawn Legacy/Saga? I mean, the series, until then, had become part of that saga, with some other media, novels and some TT, I believe, adding to it. The only thing Baldur's Gate about 2 was that it had some of the same characters in it, with the same protagonist, if you imported one from the first game, which wasn't required. Other than that, it was just brand recognition, right?
Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm not exactly sure I 100% understand your reasoning/point.

BG2 continued the overarching story of BG1, that of the Bhaalspawn, using mainly the same mechanics/characters/region, making it a sequel in the truest sense. No?
It certainly used brand recognition, but the use of "2" in the title was justified..?

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by robertthebard
I guess for the same reason that Baldur's Gate 2 Shadow's of Amn was called Baldur's Gate 2?
Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm not exactly sure I 100% understand your reasoning/point.

BG2 continued the overarching story of BG1, that of the Bhaalspawn, using mainly the same mechanics/characters/region, making it a sequel in the truest sense. No?
It certainly used brand recognition, but the use of "2" in the title was justified..?
Exactly. It is silly in BG case, but that’s devs inexperience in naming games. A smarted developer would use a more universal title. But other than poor naming of the series the tile is also wholly accurate:

Baldur’s Gate2 (sequel to The game Baldur’s Gate): Shadows of Amn (location of the new adventure). With BG2 expanding the systems and structure and on top of that directly continuing the story of the originals, including plot and the character (whenever you import or reimagine Bhaalspawn is irrelevant, it is still the same character), it is as sequelly as it gets.

As GiantBombs link point out, story content is really secondary in games. Definitely less so in RPGs, but in general you can have a direct sequel, which has no story connection to the original. It is how the story plays, how it is structure, what gameplay pillars it leans on to, what it’s feel, and appeal are, is what is the most important.

It’s not my interpretation. As Rag nicely pointed out, Warcraft1-3 were sequels, but World of Warcraft, and Hearthstone received their own IP. Similarly there was Baldur’s Gate1&2 but there were spin-off Dark Alliance games. There are original God of War games and the reboots - because they are complete reboots, in spite of continuing the characters story. FiraXCOMs openly positioned themselves as reimagining, as Solomon well knows how different their fundamental designs are.

Naming conventions are well established in gaming, so while it’s been clear for someone like me (by that I mean I played Larian games) what BG3 will likely be, it is a title that positions itself as something else than it is. Even if its plot ties to original saga, and they bring back some of the characters it is a very very different game in every aspect - so a reboot, akin to modern God of War.


Other infinity engine games were a spin-offs though. While using the same engine and therefore mechanics, their focus and structure are rather different - with Icewind Dales focusing on custom parties and pure dungeon crawling, and Planescape focusing on the narrative side.

Edit. Sorry, what we were talking about? Bloodline sequel looked crap, and it is getting a reboot under new studio. Hopefully that will come out better.

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Originally Posted by mrfuji3
Originally Posted by robertthebard
I guess for the same reason that Baldur's Gate 2 Shadow's of Amn was called Baldur's Gate 2? Couldn't they have just called it Shadow's of Amn, or the Bhaalspawn Legacy/Saga? I mean, the series, until then, had become part of that saga, with some other media, novels and some TT, I believe, adding to it. The only thing Baldur's Gate about 2 was that it had some of the same characters in it, with the same protagonist, if you imported one from the first game, which wasn't required. Other than that, it was just brand recognition, right?
Can you explain what you mean by this? I'm not exactly sure I 100% understand your reasoning/point.

BG2 continued the overarching story of BG1, that of the Bhaalspawn, using mainly the same mechanics/characters/region, making it a sequel in the truest sense. No?
It certainly used brand recognition, but the use of "2" in the title was justified..?

Sure, but by comparison, it's the same argument as "But this game isn't Baldur's Gate". At this point, there is a lot more we don't know about what's coming in the story than what we do know. What we do know is that we're going to have some return characters, and a return to Baldur's Gate. But as we can see, this is more about
Quote
Naming conventions are well established in gaming, so while it’s been clear for someone like me (by that I mean I played Larian games) what BG3 will likely be
" than anything else. "But it's a Larian game", while true, doesn't tell the whole story. It is still the property of WotC/Hasbro, and if they weren't on board with the basic plot, they wouldn't have let Larian use the IP. It's a safe bet that WotC/Hasbro has more information about this game than we do, so there's bound to be a reason they allowed Larian to use the IP.**

In particular, when I think about Minsc, I don't think "Oh, the Forgotten Realms", I think "Oh, Baldur's Gate". The same for Jaheira. While Minsc does appear in the Neverwinter MMO, his origin is, and always will be, Baldur's Gate. We were never going to get the same mechanics, other than dice rolls, because BG 1 and 2 were 2nd edition, and this is going for 5e. It's also not going to be in the Infinity Engine. So, we have a return to the setting, both Forgotten Realms and Baldur's Gate, and returning characters from BG 1. BG 2 had returning characters, and the storyline. It kept the Forgotten Realms, but lost Baldur's Gate. So yes, it's a direct sequel. This does not, however, preclude another game in the same setting from using the title, especially with the parallels to the first game, setting x2 and returning characters. Bonus points if there are returning characters from BG 2 as well?

You see, I came away from the post I originally quoted thinking "hey, another "but it's really DOS 3" post". Which is more or less confirmed by the snippet I quoted above. What else do you suppose is meant by that? So, I pointed out some differences and similarities between the three titles. It's not like Larian created another new IP and slapped the Baldur's Gate title on it, they can't do that. Everything they're doing goes through an approval process, and if you're thinking this isn't the case, read the new OGL they're trying to push out. Something that stood out to me was them insisting that you had to submit your work for approval, even on mostly homebrew stuff that's using the current OGL... If they're going for that much control over IPs that they don't own, how much control do you suppose they're exerting over IPs they do own?

**Of note here, IP refers to Baldur's Gate, et al. You can make a DnD game that isn't Baldur's Gate, but can't make a Baldur's Gate game that isn't DnD, although I have to wonder, given Dark Alliance...

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@robertthebard We really got off topic so I will put reply in spoiler tag


That WOTC signed on it, doesn't change a thing. And yes, the plot might have an indepth connection to the originals that is relvealed later on, but I still think it is irrelevant. It seems you are, like Rag, talking about sequels in film/book sense, but those are games we are talking about. I will paste again definition as descriped by a giant bomb, because we are talking about games, not films.
https://www.giantbomb.com/sequel/3015-3178/
https://www.giantbomb.com/spin-off/3015-1100/

I would argue that BG3 departs too far from the template of the originals. Some departures, sure, but one would be hard pressed to find similarities between originals and BG3 aside from generalities (there is leveling, there are companions, there are items) that would apply to many if not all cRPGs.

The issue is, that whenever BG3 continues story or has characters from BG1&2 is pretty irrelevant. With Bhaalspawn Saga being finished, there is no narrative need to continue the story. They could have made a Baldur's Gate3 that would start a new saga, and as long as it would mechanically continue and evolve what BG1&2 were doing, it still would make for a decent sequel. I would still say: "What's the point of calling it Baldur's Gate, as the series established their identity already", but creatively I think it would still be more valid that what Larian is doing. One would still make a Baldur's Gate game, just start a new story, because the old one was finished.

Giant bomb describes spinoff as: "A game that takes gameplay mechanics, characters, or story elements from an existing series in a separate and different direction, sometimes changing genres along the way." On the other hand, "In video games, there is often no narrative at all to link a game to its sequel (for instance, Forza Motorsport and Forza Motorsport 2,) and many story-focused sequels drop some or all of the characters, settings, and themes found in the original game."

I don't think it applies 100% to Baldur's Gate3, as the series have established world, so some narrative continuity is necessary, but games are games. They are to be played, not read or watched. As such, how the game plays is the most important aspect.

Ok, so you don't think that tamplate as established by Bioware can or should be used. So you reboot the franchise - not narratively (though even if plot and some character re-appear, I still see BG3 world as rebooted - just see recent conversation about mature content in what used to be a Teen adventure) but mechanically - God of War situation.

I would also refer you to Persona5: Strikers - it narratively continues Persona5 storyline, but as a game it is a spin-off. If they were to call it Persona5-2, it would create much different expectations.

Baldur's Gate series as such a done for, and BG3 isn't meant to complement them, but replace them, so it isn't a spin-off but a reboot. It is reimagening of BG1&2 basic concepts with focus on different elements than the originals, with bigger focus on systemic sandbox (with inconsistent result so far) and coop multiplayer. Not necessarily a bad thing (Bhalspawn saga is done and finished, and as you mention 5e doesn't lend itself to exact gameplay that BG1&2 had) but a sequel it is not.
But we end up, predictably talking about BG3, thanks to myself and Rag, while the tread is about discussing other games specifically.

Bloodlines finished its narrative neatly in one game. There isn't really much to continue, outside doing another decent story in the world of that game. As such, the only sequel one can do is the one that pays homage to Bloodline's design. Otherwise it is less Bloodlines2 and more of "another game in the same universe".

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