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Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
But I think Larian doesn't want easy encounters.
/looks at Shove and Barrels in Pockets

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Originally Posted by pachanj
Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
But I think Larian doesn't want easy encounters.
/looks at Shove and Barrels in Pockets
Larian doesn't have history of caring about balance either. This leads to a problematic situation Josh Sawyer described in his post about balance in single player RPGs.
https://www.tumblr.com/jesawyer/161302725596/balance-in-single-player-crpgs

If certain options are too powerful you either:
1) design with them in mind, meaning other choices become non-viable limiting actual player choice and introducing trap choices

2) you don't design for them, and as such players who make those choices can have unengagingly easy experience.

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Originally Posted by Wormerine
Larian doesn't have history of caring about balance either. This leads to a problematic situation Josh Sawyer described in his post about balance in single player RPGs.
https://www.tumblr.com/jesawyer/161302725596/balance-in-single-player-crpgs

If certain options are too powerful you either:
1) design with them in mind, meaning other choices become non-viable limiting actual player choice and introducing trap choices

2) you don't design for them, and as such players who make those choices can have unengagingly easy experience.
For me in games without pvp balance is good when it makes all classes viable and fun but doesn’t make everything the same. I like having some fun powers and some areas a class excels at. Things can be too balanced, which to me makes the combat not fun.

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Originally Posted by The_Red_Queen
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
1. Larian has clearly stated their position on TB and RtwP
2. The community has voted with a more than comfortable majority supporting JUST TB.


And yet these discussions keep happening. It seems an inability to accept the results and move on.

To be fair, I think this thread was accidentally necro-ed and previously hadn’t been updated since May last year, which also seems to be the last time someone posted in the RtwP mega thread. I’m sure that the topic has reared its head on more than one occasion since, but it feels like most people have indeed accepted the situation and moved on.

(I also find BG3 combat much more interesting and strategic than that of the previous BG games, btw.)
Originally Posted by kanisatha
Originally Posted by Wormerine
Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Let me clear something up, I simply didn't find Bg1 or 2 challenging in any way. I did all of those things, and I avoided taking advantage of the poor RTWP system and its shortcomings. I turned off the AI, I set up maneuvers, and summons, and spells and so forth but ultimately the combat was a "thing to get through" that didn't provide any real challenge.
I agree - especially compared to something like Pathfinder games, BG1&2 were a cake walk. 2e was also not very complex. Yes there were a lot of spells, but really that's all that was to it. Out of party of 6 maybe 2-3 characters required attention. I have managed to beat the game with little to no understanding of underying mechanics - and yeah, with that some fights took quite a bit of trial and error - some cheese, some experimentiation and some RNG luck. If one has a decent grasp on the mechanics though, BG1&2 become rather straightforward.

I definitely see more potential in BG3 combat, as long as they get rid of the "cheese" - for not it is a mixed bag for me. Some encounters I enjoy, other annoy me, and my enjoyment is always throttled by the knowledge that I can steam roll through any encounter if I stop handicapping myself.
Seems to me like a strawman to be comparing the old BG games to something being made today. The more appropriate comparisons would be the RTwP combat of Pathfinder to the TB combat of BG3. And for me, although I am yet to play BG3 and only have streams of others' games as my reference, the RTwP combat of the Pathfinder games is waaaaaaaaay better than BG3. Now, I do think there is way too much combat in WotR at the expense of other aspects of a cRPG, but that's a separate issue. The combat itself of WotR, in RTwP, is just soooooo awesomely fun, interesting, and challenging, compared with the utterly boring and tedious combat of BG3.


I would invite you guys to check out Temple of Elemental Evil by Troika games plus the 20 year fanbase patches. If you want to compare Bg3 to something from the past ToE is an incredible, challenging game with a LOT of combat. It is based on the 2e system and is 100% Turn Based only. It is a very challenging game.

I actually really hope that ToE can one day be re-created in the BG3 engine. Heaven. ToE is one of those amazing games that is a cult classic with a dedicated group of people who still support it.


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I'm torn. There's the part of me that wants everyone to get what they want and that says "sure put in RtwP for the fans even if I'll never use it"!

The other part of me thinks that there are soo many other things that should be done instead. If you are going to dive into the guts of the engine I think the chain system would need to be the priority. And that assumes that engine changes would not come at the cost of the story.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I would invite you guys to check out Temple of Elemental Evil by Troika games plus the 20 year fanbase patches. If you want to compare Bg3 to something from the past ToE is an incredible, challenging game with a LOT of combat. It is based on the 2e system and is 100% Turn Based only. It is a very challenging game.
I never gave it a decent shake, and I meant to return to it someday. From what I remember ToEE used 3.5 edition though.

Personally, my favourite real-time D&D adaptation was IWD2 - it couldn’t quite implement 3rd edition in the Infinity Engine, so it went for something between 2&3. 3rd edition (same with Pathfinder) is great for single character builds, but I find it too tedious to manage, remember and comprehend party of 6-10ish characters.

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Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I'm torn. There's the part of me that wants everyone to get what they want and that says "sure put in RtwP for the fans even if I'll never use it"!

The other part of me thinks that there are soo many other things that should be done instead. If you are going to dive into the guts of the engine I think the chain system would need to be the priority. And that assumes that engine changes would not come at the cost of the story.

Exactly. Do we want RTWP or:

GM Mode, DLC, additional Races, Bug Fixes, subclasses, more spells, character save and export, Bug Fixes, more DLC, UI Improvements, Higher levels and Bug fixes.


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Originally Posted by pachanj
Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
But I think Larian doesn't want easy encounters.
/looks at Shove and Barrels in Pockets
This is a good point. I got sick of barrel cheesing in DOS2, so I guess my brain edits barrels out of Larian games automatically. My first run on DOS2 there's a spot in the Blackpits with a difficult fight for low-levels except you can just scatter barrels around and nuke from a distance. Second time around, ignored every barrel everywhere. Now I they don't exist to me.


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Originally Posted by Zerubbabel
A big complaint I saw for the Pathfinder turn-based mode is that long battles become REALLY long and REALLY boring. A game built around RTwP can be fundamentally different in structure from a game built for turn-based.

I played Pathfinder and can point to one or two fights that I know would make me agree with this point of view. However, I think that if the game had been designed for TB only, they would have re-thought those battles. So, not to say that TB HAS to be a negative. but it would probably inform certain other game play decisions.

I don't (thus far) see anything that would fall into that category. But I haven't seen very much of the game so far. Are there any HUGE multi-wave battles? Are they presented without opportunity to pause? If not, I can't see this being a major issue.

Again, I agree with your point of view. I wouldn't use TBwP myself (unless there was a VERY compelling reason to do so). Just playing devil's advocate. But ultimately, I suspect that there aren't enough players clamoring for it to make it worth the effort.

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of course you can have dnd game in rtwp could be better or worse depaning on how it would be made. Never use Pathfinder as an example that game and it's mode is not even real RTwp... and it's bad. IF you going to use examples at least use good ones like Dragon age origins for a base to build from.

Not like it's worth going into it because it doesn't matter at this point and for this game at all.

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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
Originally Posted by KillerRabbit
I'm torn. There's the part of me that wants everyone to get what they want and that says "sure put in RtwP for the fans even if I'll never use it"!

The other part of me thinks that there are soo many other things that should be done instead. If you are going to dive into the guts of the engine I think the chain system would need to be the priority. And that assumes that engine changes would not come at the cost of the story.

Exactly. Do we want RTWP or:

GM Mode, DLC, additional Races, Bug Fixes, subclasses, more spells, character save and export, Bug Fixes, more DLC, UI Improvements, Higher levels and Bug fixes.

Yeah, make it more like Neverwinter Nights... Wait...

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RTWP all day every day, its a staple of the series and should be MANDATORY to put it in, or at the very least an option to use so I don't have to deal with that garbage turn based combat. Its the very reason I just could not play more than an hour of DOS1 and 2 because I was bored out of my skull and literally fell asleep in my chair at one point because the gameplay was interrupted because I had to take 20 minutes to kill some rando enemies when if it was RTWP I could do it in about 30 seconds. Just look at the recent Pathfinder games if you want an example of RTWP done and done well as those games are fun, engaging and have excellent gameplay flow.

Granted the turn based emulates a table top game very well, but the thing is I don't want a random encounter to take a half hour in a video game where pacing and flow is key, while table top is meant to be more slower and methodical.

Yes this is a necro but god dammit turn based just pisses me off like you wouldn't believe, and felt like I got conned when I bought the DOS games.

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Originally Posted by Mars121
RTWP all day every day, its a staple of the series and should be MANDATORY to put it in, or at the very least an option to use so I don't have to deal with that garbage turn based combat. Its the very reason I just could not play more than an hour of DOS1 and 2 because I was bored out of my skull and literally fell asleep in my chair at one point because the gameplay was interrupted because I had to take 20 minutes to kill some rando enemies when if it was RTWP I could do it in about 30 seconds. Just look at the recent Pathfinder games if you want an example of RTWP done and done well as those games are fun, engaging and have excellent gameplay flow.

Granted the turn based emulates a table top game very well, but the thing is I don't want a random encounter to take a half hour in a video game where pacing and flow is key, while table top is meant to be more slower and methodical.

Yes this is a necro but god dammit turn based just pisses me off like you wouldn't believe, and felt like I got conned when I bought the DOS games.

Yes but RTWP ruins Multiplayer. BG3 multiplayer is amazing. Bg1-2 Multiplayer was abysmal.

With multiplayer you really can only do Real time (Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2) or Turn based (Bg3, Temple of Elemental Evil).

Look, and there is a game for you as you mentioned. Pathfinder is a single player experience and its RTWP. Its Turn based mode is dogshit and it doesn't do multiplayer. So not my cup of tea, but you have fun.


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Original BG was with RTwP and I'd love to see in third game too. I just played Pathfinder and it worked as a charm! If you read this Larian, please put the option into the game. Much love and thank you for your effort.

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Though I love RTwP, the way every encounter in BG3 are <staged> and designed the same like a final fantasy tactics game, its just impossible at this point to have both. Whats more there are not even random encounters. Larian could of designed something interesting there...mixing fast paced/urgent RTwP elements for random or minor encounters...and go full on tactical mode for major/big encounters to make the game less of a <map encounter A, B, C, D etc...> bore and flesh out the world/immersion a bit more, and tie its RTwP roots to the BG franchise.

In the end the game encounters plays out exactly like DOS1. Like it or not WoTr at least gives you the option to do both, and both work pretty well depending on the situation. Now if you want to go 100% turn base, Solasta is so much more in-depth, and it works there without being too boring.

Last edited by Count Turnipsome; 24/03/23 12:53 AM.

It just reminded me of the bowl of goat's milk that old Winthrop used to put outside his door every evening for the dust demons. He said the dust demons could never resist goat's milk, and that they would always drink themselves into a stupor and then be too tired to enter his room..
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Yup, the TB combat system of BG3 is the one thing I don't like about the game that I have come to terms with and accepted as something I have to live with. So if everything else on my list of shortcomings in the game get addressed, I'll be okay with the TB combat, as crappy as it is.

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I really don't see the point of a D&D game without multiplayer - which is what every person asking for RTWP is really asking for. I'm not saying single player doesn't have value, it's just that without multiplayer it feels like you are throwing the game onto a bonfire where it doesn't have longevity.

Neverwinter Nights is still used as a platform for D&D - and 21 years later it's still good. I played it myself, online (mostly PvP arenas), for years. It was the online capability that has kept it relevant over the years.

What we DON'T have is a similar platform that is turn based. BG3 may become the game of the decade if Larian keeps supporting and expanding it's multiplayer capability. Solasta just doesn't cut it, neither does Tailspire (if that ever leaves EA, maybe) but it barely works as is and doesn't have the capability of BG3.

Anyway, I will keep trying to be the voice for multiplayer on this forum - which is severely underrepresented in my opinion. I think a lot of people offer their opinions without a thought to how it affects multiplayer.


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Originally Posted by Blackheifer
I really don't see the point of a D&D game without multiplayer - which is what every person asking for RTWP is really asking for. I'm not saying single player doesn't have value, it's just that without multiplayer it feels like you are throwing the game onto a bonfire where it doesn't have longevity.

Neverwinter Nights is still used as a platform for D&D - and 21 years later it's still good. I played it myself, online (mostly PvP arenas), for years. It was the online capability that has kept it relevant over the years.

What we DON'T have is a similar platform that is turn based. BG3 may become the game of the decade if Larian keeps supporting and expanding it's multiplayer capability. Solasta just doesn't cut it, neither does Tailspire (if that ever leaves EA, maybe) but it barely works as is and doesn't have the capability of BG3.

Anyway, I will keep trying to be the voice for multiplayer on this forum - which is severely underrepresented in my opinion. I think a lot of people offer their opinions without a thought to how it affects multiplayer.
Nope. I see it exactly the opposite way. TT gaming is what's for MP, and the computer medium is all about replacing the nuisance of having to play with other people and being able to play a game by yourself. Therefore for me, ALL computer games should be SP, with MP added on in some of those games if it makes sense and can be technically done. But SP should be the focus - ALWAYS.

Thankfully, several other major RPG developers, Bethesda, Bioware, CDPR, Obsidian, inXile, have all in recent years come to exactly this same conclusion, and have shifted their focus (at least for RPGs) to SP at the expense of MP.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Nope. I see it exactly the opposite way. TT gaming is what's for MP, and the computer medium is all about replacing the nuisance of having to play with other people and being able to play a game by yourself. Therefore for me, ALL computer games should be SP, with MP added on in some of those games if it makes sense and can be technically done. But SP should be the focus - ALWAYS.

Thankfully, several other major RPG developers, Bethesda, Bioware, CDPR, Obsidian, inXile, have all in recent years come to exactly this same conclusion, and have shifted their focus (at least for RPGs) to SP at the expense of MP.

I think calling it a nuisance is very unfortunate and it would go a long way towards addressing the toxicity in the gaming community if more people engaged in more small-group - long-term -multiplayer games as it would help people train in socialization.

Granted not all multiplayer is healthy, especially the huge MMO's that don't create infrastructure for communities to develop or the giant shooter platforms where anonymity thrives. Generally speaking Isolation is bad, and speaking for the US, we have a huge problem with it and it's leading to a lot of negative mental health outcomes.

The last MMO that went out of it's way to create solid community infrastructure was Vanilla WoW - they then decided to go in the opposite direction and wrecked it for the $$.

Anyway, I will continue to be an advocate for what Larian is doing in the multiplayer space and make sure I am helping to build a space for that sort of thing with my Discord.

Last edited by Blackheifer; 25/03/23 03:17 PM.

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Originally Posted by kanisatha
Therefore for me, ALL computer games should be SP, with MP added on in some of those games if it makes sense and can be technically done. But SP should be the focus - ALWAYS.

Huh, I’ll admit that seems an unwarrantedly strong statement to me. I don’t see why all computer games (or even all cRPGs) should be one thing or another. Yes, cRPGs are a fantastic resource for those who don’t have others to play with or don’t want to play with them (both those things apply to me!), but I can also see they’re potentially great at connecting people who do want to play with others across the globe and giving them a fun social experience. Sure, those people could play TTRPGs as well, but so what? There are many reasons I can see why someone might not want to play a TTRPG but would want to play a multiplayer cRPG, or might want to do both at different times as they scratch slightly different itches.

Because personally I have almost no interest in multiplayer gaming, I’m always happy when games that prioritise the single player experience come out. And a bit grumpy when a studio whose output I often enjoy, like BioWare, spend time on developing a multiplayer-focused game like Anthem rather than something I’d actually want to play. And I’m selfishly relieved when it appears that commercial drivers seem to be encouraging companies to create the kinds of games I like to play, particularly when it looked for a while as though things were going in a different direction.

But I feel this totally is self-interest on my part rather than some sort of (moral? practical? commercial?) imperative placed on developers by the very nature of computer games.

When I’m looking at the bigger picture, I’m all for there being lots of different kinds of games that will keep all kinds of gamers happy.

And I fully appreciate that, as Blackheifer says, when there’s a game that can manage to be great fun as a multiplayer as well as satisfying as a single player experience, as it sounds like BG3 has a fair chance of being, multiplayer can indirectly benefit singleplayer by extending the game’s longevity and fanbase, meaning that there’ll be more incentive to invest in it and sequels that single players will enjoy. Though I also don’t share his feeling that there’s no point in a D&D game without multiplayer, as I can see that for developers whose vision less naturally supports it, trying to bolt it on can compromise a good single player experience for the sake of a disappointing multiplayer one. Sometimes I do think it is best to do one thing well.


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